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Cary Cinema 12 - Page 8

post #211 of 359
1/2/12 at 6:52am
Did anybody ever had a chance to compare he Cinema 12 with an NAD M15HD?
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post #212 of 359
1/2/12 at 12:31pm
One more question. I was offered an HDMI 1.4 upgraded Cinema 11a. This is then apperently build alike (from the inside) with the Cinema 12. Only differences are only two HDMI inputs and a different remote. Can anybody confirm this and will I have access to the same software upgrades that are made for the Cinema 12?
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post #213 of 359
1/3/12 at 8:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by westmd View Post

One more question. I was offered an HDMI 1.4 upgraded Cinema 11a. This is then apperently build alike (from the inside) with the Cinema 12. Only differences are only two HDMI inputs and a different remote. Can anybody confirm this and will I have access to the same software upgrades that are made for the Cinema 12?

Thats a pretty good summary westmd except for the upgraded dacs 32bit vs 24 . Different software upgrades though

http://www.caryaudio.com/support/softwareupdates.html
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post #214 of 359
1/3/12 at 11:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwt View Post

Thats a pretty good summary westmd except for the upgraded dacs 32bit vs 24 . Different software upgrades though

http://www.caryaudio.com/support/softwareupdates.html

Do you think the 11a is still a good buy or do the new DAC's make a huge diefference?
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post #215 of 359
1/4/12 at 7:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by westmd View Post

Do you think the 11a is still a good buy or do the new DAC's make a huge diefference?

I have an 11a so cant speak to the 12 ;can say that the dacs cant be looked at in isolation; the analog stages are just as important .24/192khz dual differential dacs have a higher signal noise ratio than the ear can perceive so I am content.

If the 12 had a proper room eq program like audyssey [xt32 thanks ] it would help. Not many rooms have good room treatments so room eq may be important to you ? I like the cary stance to have separate audio and video components so why I dont need the 2 extra hdmi's - I put the money into a dvdo duo so have 8 in and 3 out[1 audio] which is perfect for my system.

The 12's firmware is not as developed as the 11a imo so people find audio dropouts when using tivo's and cable pvrs ;have a read of this thread and see if this is something that bothers; well built players and sources are different

Get the impression when you read some upmarket pre pro threads here it will show how hard it is to implement a decent hdmi system Onkyo just announced a new PinP hdmi wrinkle ; more things to go wrong who knows ?

Try to compare the brands at a dealer . It has to work with your system .Good luck
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post #216 of 359
1/4/12 at 9:16am
I am still not really sure what to get for myself. I do agree that a proper room EQ would be good but the big question is, if a naturally better sounding system without room EQ is better then a less good system with EQ. So far I listenrd to Anthem which I didn't like at all and NAD which was pretty good. I am planning to do a comparison between a Cary 11a and an NAD M15HD!
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post #217 of 359
1/4/12 at 11:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by westmd View Post

I am still not really sure what to get for myself. I do agree that a proper room EQ would be good but the big question is, if a naturally better sounding system without room EQ is better then a less good system with EQ.

Generally, no. The difference in clarity/resolution/transparency/balance among electronics, within a price bracket, are small and difficult to discern in a showroom demo. OTOH, the difference in adding a good EQ is substantial but, unfortunately, almost impossible to discern in a showroom demo because of unavailability.

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So far I listenrd to Anthem which I didn't like at all and NAD which was pretty good. I am planning to do a comparison between a Cary 11a and an NAD M15HD!

How are you comparing them? With the same speakers in the same room?
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post #218 of 359
1/4/12 at 11:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Generally, no. The difference in clarity/resolution/transparency/balance among electronics, within a price bracket, are small and difficult to discern

So you would say that even a gadget ladden Onkyo 5509 could sound better through MultEQXT32 then a rather high end Cary Cinema 11a or 12 due to the lack of room EQ?
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post #219 of 359
1/4/12 at 12:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post


How are you comparing them? With the same speakers in the same room?

I am testing them all in my own home theatre. I tested a new NAD receiver but plugged to my own amps but the unit did not have any room correction only auto setup though sound was really good. The Anthem was also without ARC but was way to clinical for my taste.
The Cinema 11a I have to buy with a 14 full money return guarantee whilst NAD Germany offered to lend me their demo NAD M15HD
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post #220 of 359
1/4/12 at 2:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by westmd View Post

So you would say that even a gadget ladden Onkyo 5509 could sound better through MultEQXT32 then a rather high end Cary Cinema 11a or 12 due to the lack of room EQ?

Yes and I have used the Cary 11 and the Integra 80.2 in the same room.
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post #221 of 359
1/4/12 at 2:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by westmd View Post

I am testing them all in my own home theatre. I tested a new NAD receiver but plugged to my own amps but the unit did not have any room correction only auto setup though sound was really good. The Anthem was also without ARC but was way to clinical for my taste.

Did you try it with ARC? Makes a big difference in most cases.

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The Cinema 11a I have to buy with a 14 full money return guarantee whilst NAD Germany offered to lend me their demo NAD M15HD

Set up the latter with Audyssey MultEQ XT!

I understand the motivation to compare all on an equal footing but equal for them ain't fair to you. You should be comparing them based on the best that each can do and that demands use of the room EQ where available.
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post #222 of 359
1/4/12 at 2:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Did you try it with ARC? Makes a big difference in most cases.

Set up the latter with Audyssey MultEQ XT!

So what would you say to NAD15HD with MultiEQXT vs. Onkyo 5509 with MultEQXT32. Would 32 make the difference for Onkyo to "beat" NAD?
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post #223 of 359
1/4/12 at 6:59pm
What sort of room do you have westmd ? Is it all hard surfaces/glass or carpets/heavy drapes for example . Have you had say a HAA member make recommendations -bass traps ;diffusers etc . Very worthwhile as a start point
http://www.acousticvision.com.au/Roo...8/Default.aspx

Kals review with the old cinema 11 is a good read ; its unfortunate that the hdmi lossless decoding was never forthcoming and still isnt with the 11v afaik
Standalone audyssey units do exist btw but there filter resolution isnt as good as the latest 32xt though afaik ..

http://www.stereophile.com/content/m...ound-25-page-2
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post #224 of 359
1/4/12 at 7:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by westmd View Post

So what would you say to NAD15HD with MultiEQXT vs. Onkyo 5509 with MultEQXT32. Would 32 make the difference for Onkyo to "beat" NAD?

I have no experience with the NAD, so I cannot comment.
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post #225 of 359
1/5/12 at 1:44am
Hi, Kal, what do you think cary 12 compared with classe ct-ssp in terms of 2-ch bypass music and movie playback?
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post #226 of 359
1/5/12 at 8:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by willshaw View Post

Hi, Kal, what do you think cary 12 compared with classe ct-ssp in terms of 2-ch bypass music and movie playback?

Never heard the Cary 12, so I cannot comment.
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post #227 of 359
1/5/12 at 5:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Never heard the Cary 12, so I cannot comment.

Ok, my bad, what about cary 11 ?
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post #228 of 359
1/6/12 at 7:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by willshaw View Post

Ok, my bad, what about cary 11 ?

Never had it side-by-side with the others but it has limitations in other spheres such that the unvarnished stereo pass-through performance cannot justify its consideration today.
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post #229 of 359
1/9/12 at 8:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by westmd View Post

Do you think the 11a is still a good buy or do the new DAC's make a huge diefference?

Having owned both the 11a and the 12, I will say that the DACs made a nice difference in the 12. I definitely preferred the 12 to the 11a for music and would give the 12 an edge with movies as well.

One other improvement made in the 12 was to the room correction. I can say it was an improvement over the 11a, but I still found it lacking. I ended up just setting everything up manually with both.
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post #230 of 359
2/10/12 at 5:14am
I am checking in with current Cinema 12 owners to see if they are still happy with their purchase. Are people still having these minor technical issues with their units and would you consider this a deal breaker? I want to avoid spending $5k for the Cinema 12 and being unhappy with it.

I am planning to upgrade my pre pro and am considering the Cary Audio Cinema 12, Classe SSP-800 or Bryston SP-3. The latter two cost twice as much as the Cinema 12, but my main criteria is sound quality in both 2 channel music and 5 channel home theater modes, along with a mainly problem-free unit. The Bryston SP-3 is so new that there are no professional reviews and none of my local dealers carry it, so I will probably stay away from that unit.
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post #231 of 359
2/16/12 at 2:56pm
I followed the 11a thread with great interest for a long, long time in hopes Cary would either fix the issues in the 11a or come out with another model that didn't have bugs that many couldn't live with. Im totally bummed to see many of the issues are still present.

I watch a lot of DVR stuff and to lose audio on a skip forward or back is a deal breaker. Is this still an issue or has Cary fixed that with their newer 12 units?

Chris
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post #232 of 359
2/16/12 at 4:00pm
Chris,

I spoke to a Cary rep and he gave the impression that it was very DVR dependant and that he didn't know which model DVRs were problematic.

About the only safe thing to do is to see if you can get a loaner unit and try it out with your DVRs.....and be sure to post your experience.
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post #233 of 359
2/17/12 at 7:53am
I have a Dish DVR. Anyone here with the 12 and Dish have the issues?

I suppose I would have to get a real, clear return policy if I go for this unit but come on Cary, wassup with all the problems? Clicks and pops and audio syncs??? There is no way I would be ok with having to switch back and forth the inputs to get audio back. How is the Cary customer service these days?

My ol' Lex MC1 won't decode the new formats but it has never missed a beat.
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post #234 of 359
2/17/12 at 11:03am
I just spoke to a Cary dealer about the 12 and it's issues. He seemed pretty knowledgable, ISF trained, etc., etc. He said 'yeah, the Cary can have issues in certain applications but it's not alone', indicating that the HDMI handshake problems that we all have known about for years, was mostly at fault. Makes sense to me but I have zero experience with HDMI audio switching and it's quirks.

My next purchase will be a current pre/pro but crap, are all of 'em buggy?
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post #235 of 359
2/18/12 at 10:26am
Got a email from a Cary dealer in Phoenix. He spent some time on the phone with Cary about some of the Cinema 12 issues.

Here's what he said,

"The official HDMI standard for an effective 'handshake' process is no more thn 14' from source, with processing thru interface components, connections, equipment to the projector (guaranteed performance according to HDMI standards).
there is a 'black box' that is highly recommended for runs over 14' to achieve consistant 'handshake' processing (to eliminate audio dropouts). http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=hdmiext.
the audio dropout problems that are the 'bane' of HDMI are not the maufacturer's (ie: Cary) fault, but are the end result of requirements of the HDMI standard (that are not being effectively or adequately met).

More Good News: the latest/current production run of the Cinema12 (being shipped from NC) features no less than 20 software/firmware fixes and a redesign of the microprocessor pcb to meet new soldering standards at lower temperatures, with pcb trace redesign and other improvements.
in other words, the latest production version has resolved numerous 'odd ball' problems, including heat containment issues in rack installations, and much more."

Interesting.
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post #236 of 359
2/18/12 at 12:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by CCLAY View Post

More Good News: the latest/current production run of the Cinema12 (being shipped from NC) features no less than 20 software/firmware fixes and a redesign of the microprocessor pcb to meet new soldering standards at lower temperatures, with pcb trace redesign and other improvements.
in other words, the latest production version has resolved numerous 'odd ball' problems, including heat containment issues in rack installations, and much more."

Is that available as a download?
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post #237 of 359
2/18/12 at 8:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by CCLAY View Post

Got a email from a Cary dealer in Phoenix. He spent some time on the phone with Cary about some of the Cinema 12 issues.

Here's what he said,

"The official HDMI standard for an effective 'handshake' process is no more thn 14' from source, with processing thru interface components, connections, equipment to the projector (guaranteed performance according to HDMI standards).
there is a 'black box' that is highly recommended for runs over 14' to achieve consistant 'handshake' processing (to eliminate audio dropouts). http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=hdmiext.
the audio dropout problems that are the 'bane' of HDMI are not the maufacturer's (ie: Cary) fault, but are the end result of requirements of the HDMI standard (that are not being effectively or adequately met).

More Good News: the latest/current production run of the Cinema12 (being shipped from NC) features no less than 20 software/firmware fixes and a redesign of the microprocessor pcb to meet new soldering standards at lower temperatures, with pcb trace redesign and other improvements.
in other words, the latest production version has resolved numerous 'odd ball' problems, including heat containment issues in rack installations, and much more."

Interesting.

Manufacturers like Yamaha, Denon, and Onkyo seldom have these HDMI problems these days except with bad cables and very long distances. The 14 foot "spec" comment makes little sense. There are lots of good cables that do 25 feet easily with the mass market receivers. Just look for cables that pass the category 2 tests at the distance you are using. For example, Blue Jeans's Belden Series 1 cable works well up to 25 feet and is priced very attractively. Something like the lumagen may help on long runs, but you really should not need it up to 25' if you have a good cable. HDMI has its issues, but I think most of the problems are Cary's rather than problems with the HDMI spec. I may be wrong, but I doubt an HDMI cable extender will solve most of the problems with the Cary 12, unfortunately. I'd love to hear that I am wrong since I like most Cary gear.
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post #238 of 359
2/18/12 at 10:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc View Post

Manufacturers like Yamaha, Denon, and Onkyo seldom have these HDMI problems these days except with bad cables and very long distances. The 14 foot "spec" comment makes little sense. There are lots of good cables that do 25 feet easily with the mass market receivers. Just look for cables that pass the category 2 tests at the distance you are using. For example, Blue Jeans's Belden Series 1 cable works well up to 25 feet and is priced very attractively. Something like the lumagen may help on long runs, but you really should not need it up to 25' if you have a good cable. HDMI has its issues, but I think most of the problems are Cary's rather than problems with the HDMI spec. I may be wrong, but I doubt an HDMI cable extender will solve most of the problems with the Cary 12, unfortunately. I'd love to hear that I am wrong since I like most Cary gear.

+1 ; It would be interesting to see if anyone getting audio dropouts have well made non generic hdmi cables less than 15' or so

Quote:


Is that available as a download?

That would tick me right off if I had a current 12 and an upgraded pcb was available . Wonder if there will be a retrofit program like the 11a got with its 1.3b hdmi board
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post #239 of 359
2/20/12 at 9:19am
Well, at least they have addressed some issues. I would hope that if someone had one of the first versions of the 12 with problems, they could send it to Cary for a revamp.

"It would be interesting to see if anyone getting audio dropouts have well made non generic hdmi cables less than 15' or so"

I would like to know that as well.
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post #240 of 359
2/26/12 at 12:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoubaixPro View Post

I am checking in with current Cinema 12 owners to see if they are still happy with their purchase. Are people still having these minor technical issues with their units and would you consider this a deal breaker? I want to avoid spending $5k for the Cinema 12 and being unhappy with it.

I am planning to upgrade my pre pro and am considering the Cary Audio Cinema 12, Classe SSP-800 or Bryston SP-3. The latter two cost twice as much as the Cinema 12, but my main criteria is sound quality in both 2 channel music and 5 channel home theater modes, along with a mainly problem-free unit. The Bryston SP-3 is so new that there are no professional reviews and none of my local dealers carry it, so I will probably stay away from that unit.

The 12 is an amazing sounding unit, but I did have some audio issues. For me they were not a deal breaker though. It would take the unit between 1 and 3 seconds to resync the audio. It amounted to about a sentence worth of dialogue, so I often had to rewind after pausing to make sure it had time to resync and play without missing anything.

I did not have any pops or clicks from my unit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

Chris,

I spoke to a Cary rep and he gave the impression that it was very DVR dependant and that he didn't know which model DVRs were problematic.

About the only safe thing to do is to see if you can get a loaner unit and try it out with your DVRs.....and be sure to post your experience.

I had a couple boxes hooked up to the unit and some were consistently problematic with the handshake while others worked instantly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cwt View Post

+1 ; It would be interesting to see if anyone getting audio dropouts have well made non generic hdmi cables less than 15' or so

That would tick me right off if I had a current 12 and an upgraded pcb was available . Wonder if there will be a retrofit program like the 11a got with its 1.3b hdmi board


Quote:
Originally Posted by CCLAY View Post

Well, at least they have addressed some issues. I would hope that if someone had one of the first versions of the 12 with problems, they could send it to Cary for a revamp.

"It would be interesting to see if anyone getting audio dropouts have well made non generic hdmi cables less than 15' or so"

I would like to know that as well.

I was running a 3 foot length of Audioquest Carbon HDMI and had the delayed sync issue. Oddly enough the worst delay was via optical cable from my KURO TV on OTA broadcasts. It would loose sound for up to 30 seconds or so about 1 out of every 50 times I changed the channel. I don't watch much OTA TV so it was not a major issue while I had the 12.

I can say that from my dealings with Cary, they seemed very honorable, and I would bet that they would take care of customers with issues if a solution had been made.
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