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Cary Cinema 12 - Page 10

post #271 of 375
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwt View Post

Yes the same cirrus 49070 iirc. No surprise emo are switching to a texas instrument chip for the new xmc1... same as many japanese ce's smile.gif

Well just because 2 units use the same cip and layout it might ne flawed to assume that the units are the same. A processor apart from doing the decoding should do the digital to analog conversion and also do the preamping, It is in these areas that the audiophile virtue of the Cary kicks in. Believe me I have had the Classe SSP 800 and the Anthem D2V in my system and I can comfortably say the Cary swallows the D2V in sound quality. Between the Classe and the Cary the Cary is more neutral and the Classe is warmer with the top end rolled off a little bit - depends on what you aspire for.
Edited by a2k2000 - 6/23/12 at 7:40am
post #272 of 375
Quote:
Originally Posted by a2k2000 View Post

..... As for the HDMI issues the Cary does have issues which are quite irritating for that price point.

Would you mind elaborating. Are you an owner?
post #273 of 375
Quote:
Originally Posted by a2k2000 View Post

Well just because 2 units use the same cip and layout it might ne flawed to assume that the units are the same. A processor apart from doing the decoding should do the digital to analog conversion and also do the preamping, It is in these areas that the audiophile virtue of the Cary kicks in. Believe me I have had the Classe SSP 800 and the Anthem D2V in my system and I can comfortably say the Cary swallows the D2V in sound quality. Between the Classe and the Cary the Cary is more neutral and the Classe is warmer with the top end rolled off a little bit - depends on what you aspire for. As for the HDMI issues the Cary does have issues which are quite irritating for that price point.

Didnt say they were the same '' electronics'' ie everything including the analog stages wink.gif Have a look at the specs on the cary site for the cary 12 and compare to others - unusually comprehensive and fine to say the least . They have chip characteristics vis a vis locking on to a hdmi signal as you know with a delay and freezing when a hdmi handshake doesnt sync rarely ..

Obvious difference otherwise is emo-q room equalisation which was an illfounded manipulation of the cirrus logic chip code that has been a pain for umc1 owners I think eek.gif No surprise that emo are going with a TACT room eq system now .. btw cary know how to design a good analog stage why I own an 11a smile.gif -
Quote:
While mainstream manufacturers pile on the features and tend to skimp on the critical analog output stages, Cary says it lavishes the most attention there. It uses premium parts that let it publish unusually complete and impressive bandwidth, frequency response, and signal-to-noise ratio specifications that mainstreamers usually omit. For instance, its claimed direct analog bandwidth is 10 hertz to120 kHz (–3 decibels), with 0.005 percent total harmonic distortion plus noise (THD+N) and a signal-to-noise ratio of 108 dB.
post #274 of 375
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

Do any Cinema 12 users have a Tivo S3 connected to it and if so, have you experienced any freezes, stutters, etc., when doing a 30 second skip forward or an 8 second skip back ? This presumes that you're using HDMI for your connection.

I know you've been asking since early this year (TiVo Community).

I had a Cinema 12 for a day a few days ago. I own a TiVo HD XL (S3 generation).

Sorry, JimP. You're NOT going to like it. Not at all.

Pops, clicks, scratchy pops, "Darth Vader" voice, what seemed like a "half?" codec lock, OFTEN multiple POPS! during multiple 30 second skips; I started FForwarding just for a POP break. Every lock of the codec was a possible head rattler.

After every break with codec (30 second skips - etc.) it takes a full 3 seconds after video starts for audio to un-mute. Which I could've lived with if it wasn't for all the other things.

I even got a shotgun set of 4 pops! CRAZY

The WHOLE time I was listening to it, I had that "loud lighting just hit" feeling in my head and that "nervous anticipation" of the next....In fact, I'm starting to get a headache just writing about it.

SQ was good though. But I would loose a couple years of life from the stress. LOL!

You may still want to try one, you never know S3's were a little different, better design.
Edited by dean-l - 6/23/12 at 4:07pm
post #275 of 375
Quote:
Originally Posted by dean-l View Post

I know you've been asking since early this year (TiVo Community).
I had a Cinema 12 for a day a few days ago. I own a TiVo HD XL (S3 generation).
Sorry, JimP. You're NOT going to like it. Not at all.
Pops, clicks, scratchy pops, "Darth Vader" voice, what seemed like a "half?" codec lock, OFTEN multiple POPS! during multiple 30 second skips; I started FForwarding just for a POP break. Every lock of the codec was a possible head rattler.
After every break with codec (30 second skips - etc.) it takes a full 3 seconds after video starts for audio to un-mute. Which I could've lived with if it wasn't for all the other things.
I even got a shotgun set of 4 pops! CRAZY
The WHOLE time I was listening to it, I had that "loud lighting just hit" feeling in my head and that "nervous anticipation" of the next....In fact, I'm starting to get a headache just writing about it.
SQ was good though. But I would loose a couple years of life from the stress. LOL!
You may still want to try one, you never know S3's were a little different, better design.

Did you try the new hardware build of the Cary with the latest firmware? How old was the unit? Cary said they made some minor changes that can address these issues. Or you can send it in to Cary and they will get it sorted out for you. There is also a firmware update down the line.
post #276 of 375
dean

Thanks for the heads up.
post #277 of 375
Quote:
Originally Posted by a2k2000 View Post

Did you try the new hardware build of the Cary with the latest firmware? How old was the unit? Cary said they made some minor changes that can address these issues. Or you can send it in to Cary and they will get it sorted out for you. There is also a firmware update down the line.


He just got them in.

Mine WAS running audio 1.02.
I don't know what the version of HDMI was, since there IS not a "version" or any way of checking. But if I have audio 1.02 I probably had it. Why Cary doesn't put release DATES on these FW updates. Reminds me of APPLE.

To be honest, the CODEC issues were SO EXTREME that I really can't see any update improving them that much.

And I wanted it to work for DVR viewing. VERY well reviewed, built like a tank, I didn't even think the remote was all that bad, like everyone complains. I even could SWEAR my TV picture was sharper!??? Hard to say.

My other issues.....

1. if you are NOT going to have a GUI (which I'm OK with) then put a DECENT SIZED display on the da*n thing!!!!
2. I couldn't get CEC to work. Is it in the menu somewhere?
3. I never DID understand how dolby headphone worked. It would start OFF (which I prefer) but you go in the menu's and it turns ON then you come out a certain way it turns back OFF again. Also, I couldn't decide if the headphone jack was really HIGH quality or AWFUL quality, it just felt REALLY tight and didn't have that clicking locking feel I'm used to on everything else.
4. The Manual. Where is CEC? Dolby headphone ON/OFF? explanations? Couldn't find them.
5. Volume changes between DD (playing a show) and PCM (when in TiVo menus) I'd say 6 db or more.
6. Volume gain. I feel like I had to turn it up too much just to hear it it. What good is the first 3/4 of the range then??? I shouldn't be at -10 db for normal listening (Nope I don't listen that loud)

It's kinda funny, when I called Cary (before trying it) and talked to a nice fella there, I told him some of the CODEC/HDMI issues I have with my Anthem, he thought that was terrible. I did get the opinion CS could be really good.

I'm sure it's a great sounding Pro, but it just WAY too flaky for my DVR viewing.
Edited by dean-l - 6/25/12 at 5:12am
post #278 of 375
Quote:
Originally Posted by a2k2000 View Post

Did you try the new hardware build of the Cary with the latest firmware? How old was the unit? Cary said they made some minor changes that can address these issues. Or you can send it in to Cary and they will get it sorted out for you. There is also a firmware update down the line.

I took it back, but I could get it again. Can you elaborate on the "send it in to Cary and they will get it sorted out.." concept?

What would they do?
post #279 of 375
Dean,

Cary has this habit of putting in faulty hardware and silently fixing it behind the back. Read the 11a forum and you will see. Try reaching out to them with your issues and you will see what I am talking about.

I agree with you that for normal TIVO watching and other functionality the japanese companies like Denon, Yamaha, marantz do a fantastic job with issues related to HDMi handshaking and trouble free performance. But if you are willing to look past these quirks then in terms of actual sound quality both for movies and music the Cinema 12 is hard to beat for the price. Believe me I have a Classe SSP 800 in the main room and the Cary and in some areas especially SACD reproduction and movie dynamics the Cary outshines the Classe. Between the Cary, Bryston and Classe the Cary is the only unit that can accept a pure DSD signal and convert it to analogue without doing a PCM conversion and the entire analog section is fully balanced which accounts for its stellar sound quality.
post #280 of 375
The Pre-Pro could turn water into wine. But if I get literally sick from the constant head rattling LOUD POPs, it just doesn't matter. I find the only people who tolerate these buggy products are those that watch a couple blu-rays a week in their "special" HT room hidden in the basement. But they don't actually WATCH TV in there. (Why, I never understood that, by the way, what a waste.)

Have any of you actually USED a DVR with this product?

You can own a Porsche, but if it has a teeth rattling backfire and fills with an oily smoke EVERYTIME you shift gears, brake or use you turn signals---- you're NOT going to be happy.

So, just like the Porsche, if you are cruising along in the same gear, same speed and straight down the road; like playing a Blu-ray disk; you are fine with it.

You, a2k2000, inspired me to call Cary and asked them to question the engineering dept about testing with TiVo's. The fella I talked to said that he "thought" they had tested with maybe the Premiere.

So he sent engineering an E-mail and he copied it back to me.

NO DETAILS of any kind. Not about TiVo's, not about any other DVR's, not about future FW's.

Basically, it the same old disappointing "must be you equipment" response, instead of an upfront "we didn't test that one, but we DID test these DVR's". Now I know we've ALL BEEN TOLD that it's ALWAYS some other equipments fault and the excuses involved. Right or wrong. My 8 year old crappy Onkyo works GREAT. Never ANY Pops, scratches, etc. My 3 1/2 month old Anthem MRX700 started with some POP's and such. But a FW update about 3 weeks into ownership, made it quite tolerable since. None through my old Panny plasma (2006) or my NEW Panny plasma (2011). I was hoping to dip my toe in the water and see if they were "interested" in dealing with the problem, or there was some info that could give me "ANY" confidence to pursue this further. But I received NONE.

I think ANYONE that WANTS to buy a "boutique" (or small operation) AVR/Pre-Pro and want to use a DVR is running an ENDLESS marathon that unfortunately almost always ends in the Japanese arms. Sad. Especially considering how EASY it is to buy Japanese. They are everywhere, they are cheaper, they are updated regularly, they are CONSIDERABLY more tolerable to use with DVR's, and they generally sound like crap.
Edited by dean-l - 6/27/12 at 12:05am
post #281 of 375
The Cinema 12 unit Dean is talking about also pop's with a Directv HD-24, and a HTPC using XBMC. Any video that you reverse, forward, pause, etc. Anything that breaks the audio signal will cause a pop at the current volume and a 2-second silence till it locks.
post #282 of 375
Quote:
Originally Posted by a2k2000 View Post

Dean,
Cary has this habit of putting in faulty hardware and silently fixing it behind the back. Read the 11a forum and you will see. Try reaching out to them with your issues and you will see what I am talking about.
I agree with you that for normal TIVO watching and other functionality the japanese companies like Denon, Yamaha, marantz do a fantastic job with issues related to HDMi handshaking and trouble free performance. But if you are willing to look past these quirks then in terms of actual sound quality both for movies and music the Cinema 12 is hard to beat for the price. Believe me I have a Classe SSP 800 in the main room and the Cary and in some areas especially SACD reproduction and movie dynamics the Cary outshines the Classe. Between the Cary, Bryston and Classe the Cary is the only unit that can accept a pure DSD signal and convert it to analogue without doing a PCM conversion and the entire analog section is fully balanced which accounts for its stellar sound quality.

Thanks for the comparison info! I may have to try one of these. I have Dish Network at home. Anyone try one of these processors with a Dish Hopper receiver?

Dave
post #283 of 375
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Mark View Post

The Cinema 12 unit Dean is talking about also pop's with a Directv HD-24, and a HTPC using XBMC. Any video that you reverse, forward, pause, etc. Anything that breaks the audio signal will cause a pop at the current volume and a 2-second silence till it locks.

What's really tough about it is that since it does a FULL two second mute after the video starts again, you would think you could do multiple 30 second skips and not get a POP until the end. But the Cinema 12 will actually POP every key press. And remember it was more than POPs. Very unpolished with CODEC locking. The "Darth Vader" voices were the most amusing.

Now Please don't get me wrong, I wanted this to work. The sound out of it is fantastic, truly a superior SQ, among the very best. I am NOT a Cary basher after the experience. I want to own one.

My Anthem MRX700, which I am having static issues with and waiting for another (yes, another) rolleyes.gif replacement. This one gives you a small POP every 30 second skip until they updated to FW v50.23 in late March that made it QUITE tolerable, a very rare POP. To the point I wasn't thinking about it anymore. IT CAN BE DONE. And Anthem's DSP's are more complicated to deal with. Or maybe that's the advantage.

I would be MORE than happy to work with Cary to fix or minimize the DVR situation. There are a decent sized group of people out there who have tried to find a little "higher?" SQ AVR/Pre-Pro that can be used with a DVR. Anthem seems to be the best I've found so far. Unfortunately, it's no Cary or Arcam. Just "better".

I'm hoping to try an ARCAM AVR360 in the next few days. Yup! That's going right into the CODEC fire isn't it!! LOL! But who knows? ARCAM makes a nice sounding AVR, but also WELL known for CODEC problems. But then it's a little more mature platform too. We'll see.
post #284 of 375
Is the Cinema 12 overkill if I am using the analog outs of my BDP-95 for 5.1/7.1 and SACD? When I had a Cinema 11 it sounded great but I had a horrible grounding issue when I put the unit in mute. Cary explained that their muting process leaves the circuit open. My understanding is that was "corrected" in the 12.
post #285 of 375
I also use the 5.1/7.1 analog out of the Oppo BDP-95 and I play both SACD and DVD-audio.

I also had thought about getting the Cary Cinema 12, but the problems I read about it on this site changed my mind.

I ended up buying the Parasound P7 pre-amp and enjoy it alot.
post #286 of 375
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Jow View Post

I ended up buying the Parasound P7 pre-amp and enjoy it alot.

Anyone doing strictly analog, the Parasound is the way to go. Nice piece.
post #287 of 375
Quote:
Originally Posted by dean-l View Post

What's really tough about it is that since it does a FULL two second mute after the video starts again, you would think you could do multiple 30 second skips and not get a POP until the end. But the Cinema 12 will actually POP every key press. And remember it was more than POPs. Very unpolished with CODEC locking. The "Darth Vader" voices were the most amusing.
We'll see.

Quick question Dean, did you run the calibration program? I took the time to calibrate the 12 this weekend and have not been able to replicate the popping sound. I believe the unit is set at a default of 2 channels.
I really do like the calibration system they use. But once completed the audio really does sound good. If you get a 12, don't expect anything great till the calibration is run.
post #288 of 375
Dr. Mark,

Is your unit set for 2 channel analog bypass?
post #289 of 375
I'm not sure, I ended up boxing it up and brought out the AV7005 Marantz. The 2-3 second lag was gettng to me and Cary explained it is a normal function of all equipment. Based on that I can only guess I have a defective Marantz as it doesnt do that.
post #290 of 375
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Mark View Post

Quick question Dean, did you run the calibration program? I took the time to calibrate the 12 this weekend and have not been able to replicate the popping sound. I believe the unit is set at a default of 2 channels.
I really do like the calibration system they use. But once completed the audio really does sound good. If you get a 12, don't expect anything great till the calibration is run.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Mark View Post

I'm not sure, I ended up boxing it up and brought out the AV7005 Marantz. The 2-3 second lag was gettng to me and Cary explained it is a normal function of all equipment. Based on that I can only guess I have a defective Marantz as it doesnt do that.

No. I didn't have a Multi-ch amp available. So I used headphones. My experience is that "POP codec" issues are the same either way.

Interesting that POPs would go away from "calibrating". Is that what they call their RC? I'm surprised EQ'ing would make a big difference with POPs. Hmm. I found the Cary Audio superior to my Anthem even with just headphones(even though that's "impossible" since EVERYTHING sounds exactly the same, of course rolleyes.gif ). I could live with the 2 second mute if the POP's were gone. Great Pre-Pro with a HUGE massive single fault. And Cary simply DOES NOT care about it. Just DON'T use DVR's with it I guess. biggrin.gif Practical, very practical.

Right now I've got what I call my Anthem "enhanced static". That's where it has occasional codec POPs and the screen shows it trying to "no signal" on every 30 sec skip. Also during the 30 second skip I can hear a little clicking static , which tells me it's acting up.

Like you, I've found my 8 year old cheap Onkyo (and a Marantz 5006, I tried out for 2 days) have the same design flaws as many Jap units. No POPs, no clicks, My codec even holds during 30 second skips and pauses (doesn't go to "no signal" at every opportunity like boutique units always do). Those Japanese brands really need to fix these "design flaws", I find it makes their AVR's/Pre-Pros WAAAY too EASY to live with. biggrin.gif

Reminds me of their cars. Not as great/precise/passion/etc. to "drive" as european cars, but definitely better quality control and "works right/works a long time" standards that are hard to argue against.
Edited by dean-l - 7/4/12 at 12:48am
post #291 of 375
Quote:
Originally Posted by dean-l View Post

No. I didn't have a Multi-ch amp available. So I used headphones. My experience is that "POP codec" issues are the same either way.
Interesting that POPs would go away from "calibrating". Is that what they call their RC? I'm surprised EQ'ing would make a big difference with POPs. Hmm. I found the Cary Audio superior to my Anthem even with just headphones(even though that's "impossible" since EVERYTHING sounds exactly the same, of course rolleyes.gif ). I could live with the 2 second mute if the POP's were gone. Great Pre-Pro with a HUGE massive single fault.

I would think your right about the ''calibrating'' dean-l . My 11a is the same afaik and the auto room eq only works on lpcm signals or analog a/d converted ; not dd/dts bitstreams . Cary actually said that the room eq just came with the cirrus chip and prefer you do a more precise manual rat shack cal smile.gif

Hope your anthem gets some hdmi stability ; our hd pvrs down here dont give anywhere near as much grief as your satellite etc versions do . Ours are made in South Korea but dont know if thats a factor ..
post #292 of 375
Does the silence in this thread mean that everything in this unit is now fixed? biggrin.gif
post #293 of 375
I think it means not many AVS FORUM MEMBERS have bought this unit.
post #294 of 375
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmiles View Post

I think it means not many AVS FORUM MEMBERS have bought this unit.

...due to the recession.frown.gif
post #295 of 375
Quote:
Originally Posted by gbaby View Post

...due to the recession.frown.gif

Mainly, due to the issues in the device.

Rather than reading the whole thread, just read the last few pages.
post #296 of 375
Nope and it will never be had one for a while and dumped it as fast as I could. Although Caryy acknoldged the issues they nev er fixed them. It did sound great but is totally buggy to the point my wife got very mad at me for purchasing it because it never worked when she wanted to watch someting.
post #297 of 375
I had one of the first C11 units and it was outstanding. After that it looks like HDMI done them in. Not sure if it was hardware (board, DSP) or software (I think Cary tried this in house I could be wrong) that was the underlying problem.

It's a shame because their amps and two channel line is good stuff.
post #298 of 375
Guys I wanted to put my 2 bits in. This is my 2nd unit and most of the problems stated here are not there. Just got it a 2 weeks back shipped directly from Cary to my dealer. No pops, I am using XBMC on my Apple TV2 no problem with sound while skipping at all. When I mute the sound it is dead quite, I had terrible hum on the first one. There is slight noise while changing inputs but very little, which I think is the norm. The 2 things I haven't got it to work is CEC and auto input. Auto input seek is on but it doesn't seem to be working, as in if I switch source it doesn't go to that input automatically.

The first unit was a demo, early firmware from April 2011. It was terrible just awful, the sound was very very good but HDMI and other glitches were horrible.

Now back to the new unit, I am extremely happy with the sound, its actually awesome and I have had a lot of 2 channel high end gear!!

Thank you
post #299 of 375
But do you 30 second skip with a DVR? THAT'S a completely different ballgame. THE ultimate CODEC POP challenge.

I find it AMAZING how few people who buy these "boutique" Pre-pro's and AV receivers use a DVR. It's like NONE.

How many times can you watch a Blu-Ray of Batman?

By the way, I wrote a little review/comparison of the Anthem MRX700 & Arcam AVR400. (I mentioned, a WHILE ago, I was going to try an Arcam 400 in this thread.) This includes in relation to each other, relative to DVR's, my continuing Search for a "Non-Japanese" AVR/Pre-Pro and my ENDLESS Anthem MRX700 issues. Click my name it's only a few posts ago.
post #300 of 375
No I don't have a DVR but I can't imagine it being any different than skipping my movies and music through my Apple TV2 via xbmc. Also I just randomly changed inputss and there is no noise or pops, so I was wrong about that I guess.

What I have is another problem and I'm not sure if it is related to my HDMI cables which are very generic cheap ones. Sometimes while changing inputs it won't lock onto the sound, which seems to be more of a problem since I changed one of the hdmi cables. Have to try a new cable, was thinking of going with Wireworld Hdmi cables.
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