Cary Cinema 12 - Page 2

gbaby: You're welcome.

BTW it would be better if you didn't quote entire posts; it makes things more difficult to read the thread.

I certainly didn't intend to put folks off from buying this unit, but equally didn't wish to with-hold any issues that may sway decision-making.

However it's worth keeping these 'problems' in perspective; my assessment of the sound quality stands (and if you don't have a phantom centre that removes one of the 'problems') so Cary are building on a solid foundation. If they provide a patch to help with the signal locks/muting then it's difficult to see another unit competing in the same price range...

The likes of Marantz, Pioneer, Onkyo have great features for great prices (due to economies of scale - a combination of mass market sales and buying power) but don't have the kind of musicality/neutrality I think folks considering the Cary are into.

The Anthem AVM 50v and Denon AVP A1HDCI are at the 5.5k mark, and the Arcam AV888 is even more at 7k, but you're paying for room correction and video circuitry so not all the value is going into maximising the audio path. That said their sound is good and worth considering if you need/want the bells and whistles. In fact the only audio-unit that Cary seems to be competing with in this 4-7k range is the Classe SSP-800 and the difference in sound quality between that and the Cary 12 is now much smaller than it was when it was the SSP-800 vs the 11a.

Someone made reference to the Benchmark DAC Pre and yes, it is a cracking unit (the latest version also has a remote) but the reason for me investing in a quality Processor is in order to use the onboard DAC(s), not simply as a glorified Preamp with passthru.

So if folks are now pausing/considering, then what else *is* on the market at this price point with the kind of sound quality we're collectively after ?

...'til next time - cheers !

Oh, and my offer to audition particular tracks / artists / genres still stands if you're undecided and want a bit more (detailed) info on how the 12 handles itself...

...I've got just under 2,000 cd's ripped to FLAC (with another 1,200 still to do) covering most styles, so can likely find something close to what you're into.

...'til next time - cheers !

Still no news from Cary as to the date of the firmware fix. Am starting to get annoyed now, especially as further details of the problems emerge... so here's an update on those 'faults':

"1. phantom centre doesn't work on 5.1 decoding formats on blu-ray" needs to say "1. phantom centre doesn't work on various decoding formats". I'm finding there are all sorts of circumstances when I lose the centre signal, such as applying Dolby Prologix IIx to a Dolby Digital 2.0 signal from a satellite source.

"2. limitations of CES (Cirrus Extended Surround) 7.1" isn't a fault but a lack of documentation. Apparently there are three 'matrix' options:

a. Dolby Prologix II turns 2 channels into 5.1 and Prologix IIx turns 2 into up to 7.1. One button on the remote toggles between them and no matrixing
b. DTS Neo 6 does the same as Prologic providing 5.1 or 6.1 (multiple backs are effectively mono). Remote button toggles on/off
c. CES 7.1 provides up to 7.1 from 2 channel. Remote button toggles on/off

I can't assess their quality because of fault #1, so instead I'll add a different problem as #2:

2. Insufficient gain
Playing discs, streaming music, or watching tv on my previous pre-amps, no matter the material, hasn't needed me to increase the volume past about 40% of maximum, certainly never past halfway even when demoing. Having had the Cinema12 for a couple of weeks several times now I've had to increase the volume to 100% and still wanted more. It seems to have far less gain than any pre I've ever used. I don't understand why this is and so am actually hoping that it's a fault that can be fixed

"3. the unit takes a while to lock onto a signal, routinely missing the first second or so of music" should instead be "3. the unit takes a while to lock onto a streamed digital signal, routinely missing the first second or so of music"
I can't find any reliable way of avoiding this from happening, apart from using a disc transport which doesn't seem to suffer from this fault. However as I listen to 95% of my music, and all my tv, from streamed digital sources it has a major and annoying impact on my listening

"4. the unit also loses the lock on signal while changing tv channels/music tracks" should be "4. the unit freezes/hangs when a streamed digital signal is interrupted"
In practice, this is proving to be the worst problem. Whenever I fast forward my recorded tv show - eg. skipping through the adverts - the unit freezes and displays 'no signal' and have to wait a full 30 seconds before it wakes up again. During those 30 seconds it won't respond to *any* remote commands, it's simply stuck. What's worse is if I get the timing of pressing 'play' again slightly off then I go into a second 30 second freeze. As you can imagine having to wait a full 30 seconds *every single time* I fast forward isn't just annoying but makes the unit almost unusable...

Faults 5-7 remain but there's isn't anything to add/amend:
5. sometimes the lock is only partial and I get sound out of only one speaker
6. pops and crackles appear occasionally when changing music tracks/tv channels
7. unsettling sound when the unit is powered off (a 'crackling')

I'll post an update as soon as I hear from Cary

I posted my findings regarding the musical ability of the Cinema 12 at the start of this thread. The tracks I listened to in the first 24 hours were:

• It's Probably Me (Sting, Best of)
• Sixth Sense (United Future Organisation, first album)
• Trust in Me (Holly Cole Trio, Blame it on my Youth)
• Diamonds on the Soles of Her Shoes (Paul Simon, Graceland)
• Repo Man (Ray Lamontagne, God Willin' and the Creek Don't Rise)
• End Credits (Bruno Coulais, Coraline)
• Take a Look Around (Limp Bizkit, Mission Impossible II)
• Sleeping Beauty/Mission Impossible (Danny Elfman, Mission Impossible)

Now that I've had the unit for a lot longer I've been able to widen the tracks and genres covered. In case it's of any interest here are some more findings (all from albums released in 2011...)

What She's Lost/Pittburgh's Tough (Danny Elfman, The Next Three Days) - manages the combination of strings, delicate piano notes and electric bass well, however it seems that the lack of gain reduces the soundstage, making it somewhat more congested (either that or the quality of the recording is compromised, but this seems unlikely)

The Wound and the Bow/Wooden (Sarabeth Tucek, Get Well Soon) - double tracked vocals, shaker, acoustic guitars, harmonica, are all rendered beautifully with accurate timbre and placement, even when the guitars and drums kick in

Chasing the Storm/Prologue (Patrick Doyle, Thor) - great soundtrack with the full size of the orchestra presented well, conveyings the foreboding from the strings at the start and then the power and energy with the brass / tympani; integration of electronic music is unusual but works and the unit keeps it all in proportion

Love is Won (Lia Ices, Grown Unknown) - floaty vocals over acoustic piano, lovely ambient decay, real impact to the kick drum and deep DEEP bass notes have a great definition; sounds fantastic

Finisterre (June Tabor, Ashore) - very moving with a remarkably subtle vocal pulled out over a notoriously-difficult-to-reproduce-well accordion; brilliantly done

and then for some older stuff...

Flying through the Smoke/You Weren't There (New Model Army, Eight) - quite difficult to bring out their 'live' energy from their studio albums but this is the best I've ever heard the first track managing to balance Justin's vocal with driving percussion, never feeling overwhelmed; as for the second - wow ! extraordinary impact of the kick drum and I'd never heard that the vocal is doubled in places before. cracking result...

Badhra (Anouar Brahem, Thimar) - stunning. ok you might think players of this quality (Brahem on Oud, Surman on bass clarinet and soprano saxophone, Holland on double-bass) will sound good regardless but this presentation is amazing, immersive, and witha palpable sense that they are sat in front of you playing 'live'.

Fit Song (Cornelius, Sensuous) - sure it's a ridiculous track but a great way of investigating timbres and timing and depth of the detail that the DAC is able to pull out; the Cinema 12 manages it brilliantly with placement and rhythm and engagement

Diablo Fast (Tango Siempre, Tangets) - action packed syncopated instrumentation, most pre-pros make a right mess of this, but not the Cinema which kept a tight rein of the musical rhythms not once feeling it was struggling to cope

Block Rockin Beats (Chemical Brothers, Dig Your Own Hole) - from the opening swirl of sound to the seriously funky bass/drum combo this is another difficult track to get right... and then there's that occasional insanely deep bass note - ok you need speakers that go low enough but also a prepro can keeps it in perspective. another great job.

Roots Bloody Roots (Sepultura, Roots) - manages to pull out Max's growling vocals from the distorted guitars and driving drums, but there are times when it's not as clear as other units I've heard... suspect that it might be that gain issue again

As you might be able to tell, I'm having a great time listening to stuff and remain cautiously optimistic that the fixes will elevate this prepro into the 'great' category...

...'til next time - cheers !

Thanks Colin ! "Menu / Advanced Settings / Max Volume Out" does indeed exist on the 12 and was set to 0 so I've increased it to 15 (the highest it goes) and it's made a massive difference. The rubbish manual/lack of explanation strikes again !

Not sure about 'ad skip' options but will look into it; I only installed my Humax Freesat unit today (replacing a Sky+ HD box as I refuse to keep paying Sky/Murdock) and am quite impressed so far, especially the ability to watch BBC iPlayer [I have now watched 5 out of 7 Dr Who Confidentials... a great way to spend a Sunday afternoon ]

No, you just need to press fast forward (or rewind for that matter) for a brief moment and the unit freezes for 30 seconds and there's nothing you can do to unfreeze it. You can imagine how frustrating that becomes when skipping ads can be done within 10 seconds or so and you have to wait for another 20 seconds before you can carry on...

Thanks Sharok (BTW I'm an ex ML owner - fabulous speakers!)

I also got the same reassurance earlier today so fingers crossed that we can move on soon and start talking about the important bit - the sound quality!

Yes I did; also the Arcam888 and several others and they all appeared to have issues when first released but, following firmware updates, appeared to be resolved.

As for where we are with Cary, I have received copies of old firmware for the Cinema12 and successfully re-flashed the unit (taking the software version back from being dated Apr 1 2011 to being Nov 23 2010 instead). It hasn't resolved the problems of course but it has demonstrated that the process works and I've offered to beta test the next release; hopefully I'll get the code soon.

As an aside I've been doing further testing in order to help Cary track down the specifics of the problem(s) and so here, if anyone's interested, is a brief update on those problems:

1. phantom centre doesn't work on 5.1 decoding formats on blu-ray.
the fix for this has been confirmed as being in the new release

2a. matrixing to 7.1
is the same problem as #1
2b. insufficient gain
there's an adjustment under advanced settings to increase output to +15

3. the unit takes a while to lock onto a signal, routinely missing the first second or so of music
I've now connected a variety of sources using coax and optical digital, hdmi and analog. For all digital connections, regardless of source - eg. streamed or disc transport - the first half a second or so is missed every time. Analog sources play flawlessly.

4. the unit also loses the lock on signal while changing tv channels
This is no longer an issue for me as I've switched from Sky HD to a Humax FoxSatHD and the Cinema 12 no longer freezes, suggesting it was garbage being sent down the optical digital that was screwing with the Cary unit. As a consequence I can't state whether your box (eg. Tivo) will or won't work right now.

5. sometimes the digital lock is only partial
I thought that I was losing a speaker occasionally, then I thought perhaps specific frequencies were missing... turns out neither was true, instead the signal was being played in such a way that the front speakers were 'out of phase'. Re-start the track and it will play properly.

6. pops and crackles when changing music tracks
This happens to a very minor extent and only when the unit trying to find a lock on the digital signal. Doesn't happen at all with analogue.

7. unsettling sound when the unit is powered off (a 'crackling')
Happens consistently; might be switches.

As a consequence issues 3, 5 and 6 are all to do with the Cary's ability to realise that there is a digital signal arriving, lock on, work out what it is, and then start to play it. Adjusting the sources to introduce a small delay before starting to play doesn't help.

On the positive front I've now had chance to play with the analogue connections and they all work flawlessly, and sound fabulous. Furthermore the hdmi pass through is also superb with no discernible loss of picture quality [I use a JVC HDA-1 projecting onto a 108" screen so I can usually tell ] so it's increasingly looking like the only issues with this unit are around digital audio handshaking.

...'til next time - cheers !