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Cary Cinema 12 - Page 11

post #301 of 375
My ATV 2 pulls my media from a NAS which is a hard disk how is it different than a DVR I am not sure?!
post #302 of 375
But do you do "skips"?

Specific second skips forwards and backs?

Like 30 second skip forward and 6 second skip backwards.

NOT chapters or FF'ing/Rewinding

If you DO do skips then maybe it IS the same.

But I do have to mention that DVR's (especially cable) are notorious for BAD design(not just HDMI, but EVERYTHING). They are famous for "junk" HDMI signals that mess up AVR's/pre-pro's particularly "boutique" AVR's/pre-pro's.
post #303 of 375
Well I can skip forward or backwards in 5 different speeds with the XBMC media player running on my Apple TV2. No pops, no nothing signal locks fine on resume. What I do have a problem is my signal sometimes won't lock changing inputs from say ATV to TV etc. I have to get better hdmi cables as I just gave one of my cables away and using a generic $10 one!
post #304 of 375
Honestly, it's this very issue with dvr's that keeps me from trying one of these. I have a Cary Cinema 11V video processor and I have a Cary 7.250 amplifier, which I'm sure would sound great with the Cinema 12, but I would not be able to live with the dvr issue. I miss the days of having a dealer that would let you demo a piece of equipment in your home. My dealer (Celestial Audio/Video in Phoenix, AZ) was absolutely fantastic, but after 20 years, they had to close shop. Unless there's a dealer that will allow a return if the Cinema 12 does not play well with my dvr, then I won't be getting a Cinema 12.

Dave
post #305 of 375
I passed on the Cary, now looking at the AV8801 Marantz. The AV7701 offers very little over the 7005.
post #306 of 375
AV8801 over Cary's fully balanced analog section, hmmmmm!!

I don't think the Marantz will be in the same league sound wise IMHO
post #307 of 375
While the Cary did outclass my Marantz, the 2 second lag whenever the audio signal was broken, is a show stopper for me.
post #308 of 375
I'm considering the 12 as a pre/pro for my simple HT 2.0 system and then to use once I move on to a multi-channel (7.1) power amp. I'm currently using the stereo analog outputs on my Panasonic DMP BDT-220 to a Cary SLP-98 tube pre and then to a pair of active Focal speakers. I'd like to take advantage of the hi bitrate codecs on blu-ray soundtracks, so I was planning to use the HDMI out from the BDT-220 into the Cary 12. My active speakers have XLR inputs, so I thought I'd use the front L/R of the Cary 12 balanced 7.1 outputs.

- In my current state, what is the BDT-220 DAC converting into 2-channel (stereo L/R outputs)? I was assuming that it's not taking advantage of the hi bitrate such as Dolby TruHD, etc.

- In the future state I've described, will I get an adequate "phantom" center? Is there a way to mixdown the 3 front analog outs into stereo (L/R)?


Appreciate any advice!! I suppose I'm looking for a modest upgrade in the short term while at the same time acquiring a building block for the future.
post #309 of 375
Bump. Little help. Appreciated!
post #310 of 375
Hi,

I started thinking about the Cary Cinema 12 after reading a review and after my Meridian G68 died after electric was restored in NYC after the hurricane this past week. I hear power supply issues which I think is a not so acceptable problem to have for something that expensive. They've been around for years.

I have a simple 5.1 system with an Audio Research Ref 2 Preamp driving left and right channel for CDs from a Meridian G08 but as a pass through to left and right for movies through the G68; I'm still a tube lover for music; Yes I did a/b them and, as you might expect, I'd prefer the image and depth of tubes but we always say that. For those interested in a company that makes a separate third center speaker (some said they didn't know of one), I can say that Aerial makes a wonderful matching center speaker to the 10Ts and probably good for other speakers.

So, that's my system and the Cinema 12 would go into that "movie digital" position. But, after reading about the pops and sound delays, I've cooled considerably. Maybe I was too hot to begin with. I suspect you can relate to being not very happy when something that expensive fails though on the up side; it's far from a subtle failure. Sounds like the Cinema 12 delivers on sound quality but the digital angle seems suspect and unfortunately, that's what movie sound is all about and the processing is really complex. Maybe things have changed.

Has anything changed to the Cinema 12 that might get me thinking about it again or would you say take the chance and fix the G68?

Thanks
post #311 of 375
Some new FW released.

Wonder if it helps with all the brain melting noises from CODEC lock and losses.

Any experiences out there?

Tried one, LOVED it, incredible sound - but I had shell shock after three hours.
post #312 of 375
Quote:
Originally Posted by dean-l View Post

Some new FW released.
Wonder if it helps with all the brain melting noises from CODEC lock and losses.
Any experiences out there?
Tried one, LOVED it, incredible sound - but I had shell shock after three hours.

The shell shock you mentioned, what was that from? I'll take a guess and say the pops and crackles but wanting to confirm.

I am still holding out for hope with this unit, would love to pair it up with my 2 Cary power amps but not if it still pops off.
post #313 of 375
Honestly, I'm disappointed with what Cary has done (or not done) with this processor. In the past, I've had Cary 500mb's, a Cary SLP-05. I now have a Cinema 11V and a Cary 7.250, both of which work great (wish the 7.250 didn't have a fan though). I think it's obvious that I like Cary's products. And, I really wanted to get this processor, but I did not purchase one because of the issues with DVR's. What I don't understand is that this processor has had these issues for a good long time, and yet, the issues still persist. Very disappointing - I just don't get it. confused.gif

Dave
post #314 of 375
Quote:
Originally Posted by dean-l View Post

Some new FW released.
Wonder if it helps with all the brain melting noises from CODEC lock and losses.
Any experiences out there?

Has any owners yet updated their units with the latest firmware upgrade?
Has it solved any issues at all?

After having the pleasure of hearing one of these i keep gravitating to want to take a chance and purchase one but i'm a bit too chicken.
Also contemplating the Marantz AV8801.

Some one out there must own one of these and has updated the firmware, very eager to hear if anything has changed.
post #315 of 375
Quote:
Originally Posted by thezaks View Post

Honestly, I'm disappointed with what Cary has done (or not done) with this processor. In the past, I've had Cary 500mb's, a Cary SLP-05. I now have a Cinema 11V and a Cary 7.250, both of which work great (wish the 7.250 didn't have a fan though). I think it's obvious that I like Cary's products. And, I really wanted to get this processor, but I did not purchase one because of the issues with DVR's. What I don't understand is that this processor has had these issues for a good long time, and yet, the issues still persist. Very disappointing - I just don't get it. confused.gif
Dave

Well, it's NOT unusual for a "boutique" (small company, Non-Japanese) AVR-Processors to have CODEC lock/unlock/mute issues.

ARCAM seems to have solved theirs with long CODEC mutes. A little annoying when you are not used to it, but once you are they are very effective, even if it might be considered a "lazy?" fix.

Anthem is actually pretty good. They do NOT do long CODEC mutes and are VERY close to almost, nearly eliminate the issue. It took them until SW 50.23 to get it down pat. That's a year and a half from release. But I have other issues such as static, strange "pressure" type noise at the end of DVR programs.

OTOH, Cary seems to have VERY LONG CODEC lock mutes but I still had REALLY bad CODEC lock/ unlock POPS!! I mean REALLY bad.

Just to let those confused......ALL CODEC changes/losses/etc involve what would be those loud POPs/crunches/etc. To overcome this they MUTE the sound for a period of time. You can imagine how complicated this would be with all the different equipment, processors, timing, bad signals, bad HDMI codes, etc.

When you hear a POP it is usually because you are catching the end of a CODEC lock, loss, etc. Sometimes the mute doesn't happen, or is too late, etc, etc.

SO why do the Japanese seem to rarely have these issues? Well, first they are just "better" at it. (yes, I know, but hey I don't know everything) They also are more "willing?" to be less pure/or official about it. many "boutique" units seem to want to break CODEC at EVERY opportunity. Even a 30 second skip on a DVR will often lead to a short "no signal" message followed by a CODEC relock. THIS example is why DVR people are the most sensitive to the issue. Imagine every 30 second skip used during commercials involved a LOUD POP noise. POP POP POP POP POP POP POP POP. The Cinema 12 I had was like that, intolerable even for a few hours.

One way, I've noticed, the Japanese models avoid it is by being less prone to "drop" the current CODEC even though the CODEC is gone from the source. Such as a 30 skip OR pause of the DVR. I had an Onkyo, that even when I paused a recording on my DVR, with no audio the signal is effectively gone, it would still show the previous CODEC. Same during 30 second skips - simply did NOT drop the CODEC. Thereby avoiding the CODEC lock again and the possibility of a POP. THAT'S what i mean about being less "PURE" about it.

It's amazing that most reviewers seem to just ignore this horrendously untolerable issue. But I think many of them never use a DVR, it's all BR, etc. Where the issue is much less intrusive. I also think there's some "benefit of the doubt" that they will fix it later with SW updates. And some equipment is simply more prone to the issue like I "think" my TiVo HD XL, "maybe" seems to be. Maybe. I don't know, I don't have another DVR to test. But newer one's seem better. But then I've used the same DVR with Japanese models (old and new) and once again --- no issues.
post #316 of 375
Quote:
Originally Posted by dean-l View Post

Well, it's NOT unusual for a "boutique" (small company, Non-Japanese) AVR-Processors to have CODEC lock/unlock/mute issues.
ARCAM seems to have solved theirs with long CODEC mutes. A little annoying when you are not used to it, but once you are they are very effective, even if it might be considered a "lazy?" fix.


Thanks for one of the most informative posts I have ever read on any on line equipment forum.

I own a Classe' SSP-600 and never have pops. I wonder how they have tackled this issue.

Why can't the AVR store the last couple seconds of the incoming signal/CODEC and reuse it when it experiences a drop in the incoming CODEC to cover the gap. Then, when it sees a new signal start it flips over to it.

I also would love to get a Cary 12. I owned an 11 and it sounded great.
post #317 of 375
Quote:
Originally Posted by thezaks View Post

In the past, I've had Cary 500mb's, a Cary SLP-05. I now have a Cinema 11V and a Cary 7.250, both of which work great (wish the 7.250 didn't have a fan though). I think it's obvious that I like Cary's products.

Wow, what did you replace your SLP-05 with!? I have the 306 SACD Pro, SLP-05 and SA 200.2 in front of Focal Diablo Utopias. All for hi-end audio (stereo) and not HT, of course.

Anyhow, Cary has had quality problems in my experience but the sound quality bang for the buck is up there with the very best. I'll ask around about the latest firmware and the DVR pops, etc in the 12.
post #318 of 375
A Marantz 8801 to Cinema 12 would be an interesting comparison.
post #319 of 375
Quote:
Originally Posted by dminches View Post

Thanks for one of the most informative posts I have ever read on any on line equipment forum.
I own a Classe' SSP-600 and never have pops. I wonder how they have tackled this issue.
Why can't the AVR store the last couple seconds of the incoming signal/CODEC and reuse it when it experiences a drop in the incoming CODEC to cover the gap. Then, when it sees a new signal start it flips over to it.
I also would love to get a Cary 12. I owned an 11 and it sounded great.

I didn't even KNOW these issues EVEN EXISTED until I bought home my "FIRST" Anthem MRX700, nearly a year ago. After all, who thinks an AVR in 2012 is gonna have this strange POP issue? That's when i discovered this strange, and to me FATAL FLAW type problem that NO ONE seems to want to talk about, except it "MUST be YOUR equipment's problem."

I've owned AVR's for over 20 years, POPs? NEVER dealt with them, until NOW. Seems for most of the "problem" manu's it started mostly with HDMI 1.3 units. Then when they have come out with "HDMI 1.4 or 3D" board updates, you hear these issues are "largely" gone now. ARCAM, Classe', even the Cary Cinema 12 has had some sort of HW change since there are two different FW updates based on serial Numbers.

I should mention again, some people NEVER have the issue, which "may?" explain your good luck with the C11. Probably would be the same with the C12.

BTW, I thought the C12 was the best sounding AVR/Pro I had heard in my "research" the last year. I can't imagine what the Classe AV pro is like. Especially since much of the product is designed, sort of, from scratch. Custom designed board(s) to eliminate space, distance, interference, etc. from what I understand. They don't just largely put it together with parts, like most. From what I've read looking inside is a little disappointing since they have considerably less inside them.
post #320 of 375
Quote:
Originally Posted by dean-l View Post

ARCAM, Classe', even the Cary Cinema 12 has had some sort of HW change since there are two different FW updates based on serial Numbers.

The hardware/serial# update mentioned above is critical info. When I get around to it, I'll try to get the full scoop from Cary which I'll post here.

On another note, I'm not interested in built-in room correction. Or, at least I don't think I am. The Cary's auto set-up, from what I gather, is poor. I suppose Audyssey is the leader these days for built-in functionality, but I was thinking that I'd go about that separately and then manually adjust the pre-pro (Cary or other). Thoughts?
post #321 of 375
was just wandering guys, i intend to use the cary cinema 12 only for movie watching (Blu-Ray), no pay tv, no free to air tv, no game console, no 2 channel music, nothing other than movies.
So my question is would i get any of these POPS and delays that seem to be an issue with this unit?
post #322 of 375
Quote:
Originally Posted by jh901 View Post

The hardware/serial# update mentioned above is critical info. When I get around to it, I'll try to get the full scoop from Cary which I'll post here.

that would be most excellent and much appreciated
post #323 of 375
Quote:
Originally Posted by jh901 View Post

Wow, what did you replace your SLP-05 with!? I have the 306 SACD Pro, SLP-05 and SA 200.2 in front of Focal Diablo Utopias. All for hi-end audio (stereo) and not HT, of course.
Anyhow, Cary has had quality problems in my experience but the sound quality bang for the buck is up there with the very best. I'll ask around about the latest firmware and the DVR pops, etc in the 12.

I went purely with Home Theater, as I didn't have time any more (kids) for 2 channel. I play music via hdmi now, when we need it, but I don't ever get a chance to sit down for critical listening. Just a season of life - I'm sure I'll get back to 2 channel after the kids are gone. That's why I was interested in the C12, and also let down about the dvr issue.

Dave
post #324 of 375
I have absolutely no understanding of HDMI and the problems that have been encountered with it, so any info would be appreciated. Please take that into account when reading this post.

First of all, the C12 serial #s with the hardware update start with a '12' (as in 2012). If anyone finds this to be untrue, then feel free to advise. Now then, I have been told that HDMI boards are extremely complicated and have posed a host of problems for smaller firms such as Cary, and even the big firms, to overcome so easily. Those "in the know" should step in here, but it seems that even the likes of Anthem have processor troubles and that they are being sold off by their parent due to this. Anyone confirm? I don't read up on these current events. Additionally, I've been told that "insider trade publications" frequently have articles discussing HDMI troubles. Again, one or more of you might shed some light on this.

As for the pops/lock troubles, I was not able to get a guarantee that it will never happen. I do plan to invest in a pre/pro within a couple years, so as time goes by I will delve further into this with Cary. For those of us who are passionate about audio quality and have concerns with price/performance, then there aren't many (if any) better than Cary.
post #325 of 375
I don't mean to scare anyone off this Cary or any other unit. But it's an interesting subject and people should know of the possibility. The POP issue doesn't affect everyone.

You should ALWAYS have a reasonable return policy timeframe, no questions, no re-stock $.

SQ was very impressive to me with the Cary. It is not full-featured nor easy to use or understand in many cases. Manual sucks ass. Just try to explain how Dolby headphone works, why it turns On and OFF and how YOU control it. Or CEC. I dare yea. But you get 10 pages explaining the different Dolby Codec's. Ugh! I doubt you need that much basic training if you have a Cinema 12 sitting in front of you.

It also had that oily odor of an Army motorpool repair shop biggrin.gif (six years Army reserve, spent a LOT of time in one) Oddly, I read somewhere that some oil leaked out of one in a review or something. I thought it was funny that I had a similar experience.
Edited by dean-l - 12/16/12 at 12:38am
post #326 of 375
Quote:
Originally Posted by dean-l View Post

The POP issue doesn't affect everyone.
You should ALWAYS have a reasonable return policy timeframe, no questions, no re-stock $.
SQ was very impressive to me with the Cary. It is not full-featured nor easy to use or understand in many cases. Manual sucks ass.

This view is fair. There are many who aren't interested in features, but rather in the SQ benefits of superb DAC implementation and fully balanced analog outputs. Cary has had major success with hi-end pre-amps, power amps and SACD players for many, many years. Stands to reason that they know what they are doing with digital and analog design, power supplies, etc.
post #327 of 375
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian13 View Post

was just wandering guys, i intend to use the cary cinema 12 only for movie watching (Blu-Ray), no pay tv, no free to air tv, no game console, no 2 channel music, nothing other than movies.
So my question is would i get any of these POPS and delays that seem to be an issue with this unit?

Any ideas or answers to my question above?
post #328 of 375
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian13 View Post

Any ideas or answers to my question above?

If you are strictly planning to watch movies, I wouldn't purchase the Cary. You have other options other than going with a processor. Based on what you are describing, you have a single source, a bluray player. Why not consider the new Oppo 103 or 105? Has an HDMI in and out. You can configure your speakers, delays, etc within the Oppo and go directly to the amp. If you feel the need for a processor, for strictly movies, I would consider the Integra.

Just my opinion. Most people purchase this processor because of it's music performance.
post #329 of 375
if music performance is a priority can purchase any of the cary 2ch pre amps which are whole another thing have a good rep and the kind of gear cary has made its name for. they have a ht bypass too so can easily integrate in with any ht system giving you the best of both worlds 2ch and ht smile.gif
post #330 of 375
Why do you say that if you are going to use the Cary 12 just for movies than it would be better to purchase something else?
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