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Latest Ceton InfiniTV 4 Info Thread - Page 147

post #4381 of 4752
Since you mentioned xfinity, I'll assume comcast and currently they generally only protect the premiums (may vary by market) so nearly any platform should work with all but HBO/Max/Sho etc. To view/record protected channels you need a cablelabs approved drm scheme which for the most part means WMC. SD with their prime is now offering the option of DTCP-IP which in theory will allow for more choices but right now is limited to live tv with little to no guide and about the only thing "guaranteed" to be able to work is a ps3, other devices often need firmware updates etc. that may or may not take. Looking at the few responses ceton has had about DTCP-IP, I doubt they will be offering it as an option anytime soon but since their devices require a pc it doesn't make much sense to offer it as much as it does for a stand alone device like the prime.

You mentioned two clients... was this two pc's or a pc and an extender? Tuner "sharing" (network tuners) with the ceton products isn't really sharing as the tuners must be dedicated. For me with one ceton it isn't practical to "share" the tuners out in this fashion as I frequently record more than 4 shows at once (my cable company still has some clear qam but comcast and TWC are rapidly moving to even encrypt the locals if they had not already.

Two infiniTVs will require 2 cablecards if the content is encrypted (above I was mentioning protection, not encryption, two different things as protection controls "how many copies" such as copy once, copy never, and copy freely, while encryption controls whether or not the device can tune it) With comcast, most will be unprotected but (nearly) all will still be encrypted and will require a subscription and cablecard to decrypt. Each cablecard could process up to 6 streams but they must be paired to one device and each infiniTV is a separate device thus the requirement for 2 cards if you have 2 infiniTVs. I'm hopeful that by the time the new 4 tuner primes come out, ceton will release their infiniTV6 to take advantage of all 6 streams.per device.

Generally, integrated graphics will be plenty for most users. For me, at least under windows 7, I can't get intel integrated graphics (HD 2000, 3000, 4000) to play all of my content as I have some protected h.264 channels which for some reason WMC seems to think the intel drivers don't provide a protected path and results in an error, or a black (blank) screen. On my Win 8 laptops, I can get HD4000 graphics to display the content just fine but only under win 8 and not under windows 7 on the same machines. I have also not been able to get my desktop HD4000 computers to play it in either win7 or win8 just the laptops.
post #4382 of 4752
Signcarver: Wow, thanks for all of the information!!!
Quote:
Since you mentioned xfinity, I'll assume comcast and currently they generally only protect the premiums (may vary by market) so nearly any platform should work with all but HBO/Max/Sho etc. To view/record protected channels you need a cablelabs approved drm scheme which for the most part means WMC.
I figured it would be something along those lines. Has the list of protected / unprotected channels been fairly stable? Based on a blog post, the decision to protect beyond encryption sounded arbitrary (and subject to change at the cable company's discretion). Now that I really think about it, I don't think the gf & I watch too much LIVE premium channels. HBO has a nice app these days, perhaps there is a way to integrate the OnDemand app into my HTPC's dashboard.
Quote:
...SD with their prime is now offering the option of DTCP-IP...
That is greek to me, but here is what I took away.... An HD HomerunPrime can record protected content independently of WMC, and one can play protected recordings using a DTCP-IP enabled device. Presumably, I'm going to invest in a SchedulesDirect subscription once the PVR is put in production. Isn't that supposed to mitigate the lack of EPG content?
Quote:
You mentioned two clients... was this two pc's or a pc and an extender?
  • HTPC/PVR Backend will be the HTPC itself
  • Client 1: This will run on the HTPC/PVR box, and will drive the living room's displays
  • Client 2: An extender for the TV in the bedroom

P.S. How can I preserve spacing in my posts? Blank lines meant to help readability have been removed.
Edited by ciosad - 4/12/13 at 6:32am
post #4383 of 4752
Quote:
Originally Posted by ciosad View Post

Has the list of protected / unprotected channels been fairly stable? Based on a blog post, the decision to protect beyond encryption sounded arbitrary (and subject to change at the cable company's discretion). Now that I really think about it, I don't think the gf & I watch too much LIVE premium channels. HBO has a nice app these days, perhaps there is a way to integrate the OnDemand app into my HTPC's dashboard.
Generally, its been pretty consistant across the board with comcast. If you went the WMC model, an extender would be an xbox and I believe that would be a device to watch xfinity on demand (I believe it requires a gold level of xbox live though)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ciosad View Post

That is greek to me, but here is what I took away.... An HD HomerunPrime can record protected content independently of WMC, and one can play protected recordings using a DTCP-IP enabled device.
The prime only tunes, it doesn't record or play back, it "plays" live tv with no native way to display it as it streams the decrypted stream over ethernet (though in the case of protected content it encrypts the stream again thus only certain devices can decrypt the newly created stream). However it does not attach directly to a computer as it is a network device as a result, it can also stream to other devices other than computers such as a phone, tablet, smart tv, or other dlna device.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ciosad View Post

Presumably, I'm going to invest in a SchedulesDirect subscription once the PVR is put in production. Isn't that supposed to mitigate the lack of EPG content?
  • HTPC/PVR Backend will be the HTPC itself
  • Client 1: This will run on the HTPC/PVR box, and will drive the living room's displays
  • Client 2: An extender for the TV in the bedroom

If you run a WMC system, the guide data is "included" but MS can pull that plug at any time. What I was referring to is that there isn't a good way to view the DLNA/DTCP-IP streams from the prime as it is just a dumb interface where you select from a list of channels... and getting from channel 100 to channel 500 may require 400 pushes of the down button, depending on the dlna client... both those problems will eventually change.

Your client 2 "extender", what is it... another pc, a sage unit, an xbox (for wmc)?

The prime has an advantage that its tuners can actually be shared so any device can grab any available tuner dynamically, where the infinitv requires each tuner to be statically assigned... technically in an extender model, all will be assigned to the Host and the extender picks up the channel from the host rather than the device so it may not matter to you. If that "extender" is another HTPC (a pc can't be an extender to WMC, but can for some other platforms), you may at some point decide why have both devices on to watch live tv or just decide it makes more sense to have it access the tuner directly rather than through the host... I usually recommend the prime when more than 1 pc is involved and/or that pc is linux based as even though the ceton does have linux drivers, they are unsupported and I recommend the ceton infiniTV when there will be one WMC host with xbox (or ceton echo ) extenders but occasionally that 4th tuner wins out for the ceton regardless of model.
post #4384 of 4752
Once again, thank you for the information. I'm still very new to these systems, and I'm trying to get a good high-level understanding of the components & how they integrate with one another.... I'll try to rehash the information you provided & make some assumptions:
  • The tunercard (InfiniTV or Prime) provides access to each tuner through network interfaces.
  • The network interface provides the ability to tune to a particular channel as well as read a stream.
  • Clients use the network interface in order to use a particular tuner.
  • Clients include: PVR server (direct); PVR client (indirect); Extender Application (direct)
  • A PVR server (WMC, NextPVR, MythTV, etc.) will interact with a tuner on behalf of an associated client (for example: MythTV reacts to a MythTV plugin in XBMC)
  • An extender application can directly interface with a tuner for live broadcasts via integrated DLNA DMS capabilities included with some cards.

Are the above bullet points correct? Sounds like I have a lot more to learn & consider before starting to source my parts....

Thanks!
post #4385 of 4752
Last point isn't quite right. Extenders can't use network tuners directly. They are essentially remote sessions on WMC. They don't use DLNA either.

I don't use network tuner functionality in my single WMC server / 3 extender system. It's very simple. Connect an xbox to every tv and walk away.
post #4386 of 4752
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdavej View Post

Last point isn't quite right. Extenders can't use network tuners directly. They are essentially remote sessions on WMC. They don't use DLNA either.

I don't use network tuner functionality in my single WMC server / 3 extender system. It's very simple. Connect an xbox to every tv and walk away.

My xbox360 supports DLNA.
In fact, on Windows 8, it supports use of Directshow (LAV filters) during DLNA playback of a MKV on the 360 when innitiated from the server.
Edited by Shark007 - 4/12/13 at 10:57am
post #4387 of 4752
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shark007 View Post

My xbox360 supports DLNA.
In fact, on Windows 8, it supports use of Directshow (LAV filters) during DLNA playback of a MKV on the 360 when innitiated from the server.
So does mine. But I thought we were talking about the mechanism extenders use to interact with tuners. That's not DLNA as far as I know, which is the point I was trying to make. As soon as you can watch live TV via DLNA, let me know, because then I can finally get rid of all my xboxes and just use my streaming blu-ray players.
post #4388 of 4752
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdavej View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shark007 View Post

My xbox360 supports DLNA.
In fact, on Windows 8, it supports use of Directshow (LAV filters) during DLNA playback of a MKV on the 360 when innitiated from the server.
So does mine.

I quoted your entire post, and responded to it because it seemed inaccuate. Since i have no interest in the InfiniTV 4 (I use a Hauppauge 2250), I made no attempt to read previous posts and responded solely to to your statement that extenders do not support DLNA.
post #4389 of 4752
I'm going to try not to respond anymore in this thread in a way that promotes the prime over the ceton, as it is a ceton specific thread, it is just that some more prime specific questions have been asked... for most people I do recommend the ceton over the prime as they use WMC and xbox extenders and it currently has an extra tuner (4 tuner primes with more features are supposed to come out later this year, but until I hear next month or tomorrow, I would not wait). It's just when there are other devices in the mix that one should try and make an informed decision and depending on the clients being used I thought the prime should be given a look. By the way, the first points about network interfaces being used to communicate with either the prime or ceton are correct but may be a little misunderstood as stated... the infiniTVs are connected by either USB (external) or PCIe (internal) but the interface produces what the computer sees as a network interface. Take the word extender out in front of application (or App) in the last point and it is essentially correct in the case of the prime.

Live tv through DLNA is exactly what the prime now allows, the problem is protected content requires DTCP-IP which is rather new in the U.S. (Japan has supposedly required it for awhile), and most devices that do support it don't support mpeg2. At the time of its introduction, the only "real" device to support dlna, DTCP-IP, and mpeg2 was the ps3 and there isn't a decent interface for it with a guide and direct channel tuning (by number). There is also the problem that live tv isn't seekable and many implementations of dlna compatible devices are doing it wrong (including some versions of xbmc) A little insight to this latest problem why some devices don't work can be seen here
Quote:
the problem is that DLNA certification process requires that a DLNA DMS reject any HTTP-GET request containing a RANGE tag when non-seekable content is selected (ie live TV)

Edited by signcarver - 4/12/13 at 12:32pm
post #4390 of 4752
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdavej View Post

So does mine. But I thought we were talking about the mechanism extenders use to interact with tuners. That's not DLNA as far as I know, which is the point I was trying to make. As soon as you can watch live TV via DLNA, let me know, because then I can finally get rid of all my xboxes and just use my streaming blu-ray players.

JRiver is using DLNA to access Ceton tuners is their now usable but no polished support for Ceton Tuners. I am currently using a Ceton Network Tuner on my Workstation using JRviver MadVR and Lav Video.. some bugs to work but very close to a production piece.
post #4391 of 4752
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtgray View Post

JRiver is using DLNA to access Ceton tuners is their now usable but no polished support for Ceton Tuners. I am currently using a Ceton Network Tuner on my Workstation using JRviver MadVR and Lav Video.. some bugs to work but very close to a production piece.
But with no support for protected content at this time.

So don't throw your XBOX's away quite yet, mdavej smile.gif.
post #4392 of 4752
Quote:
Originally Posted by signcarver View Post

Two infiniTVs will require 2 cablecards if the content is encrypted (above I was mentioning protection, not encryption, two different things as protection controls "how many copies" such as copy once, copy never, and copy freely, while encryption controls whether or not the device can tune it) With comcast, most will be unprotected but (nearly) all will still be encrypted and will require a subscription and cablecard to decrypt. Each cablecard could process up to 6 streams but they must be paired to one device and each infiniTV is a separate device thus the requirement for 2 cards if you have 2 infiniTVs. I'm hopeful that by the time the new 4 tuner primes come out, ceton will release their infiniTV6 to take advantage of all 6 streams.per device.

Huh, interesting. Is there a way to have one InfiniTV withOUT a cablecard, assigned to tune only to Clear QAM channels, while the other InfiniTV has a cablecard and is allowed to record from any channel?
post #4393 of 4752
Quote:
Originally Posted by JorgeA View Post

Huh, interesting. Is there a way to have one InfiniTV withOUT a cablecard, assigned to tune only to Clear QAM channels, while the other InfiniTV has a cablecard and is allowed to record from any channel?
You might have WMC setup problems if you don't have a CableCARD. See Using the InfiniTV without a CableCARD (as ClearQAM) with Windows Media Center.
If you can manage to get it set up in WMC it should work. When my CableCARD went bad I used the InfiniTV as a Clear QAM tuner without a CableCARD while waiting for Verizon to send a replacement.
post #4394 of 4752
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtgray View Post

JRiver is using DLNA to access Ceton tuners is their now usable but no polished support for Ceton Tuners. I am currently using a Ceton Network Tuner on my Workstation using JRviver MadVR and Lav Video.. some bugs to work but very close to a production piece.

This is incorrect. JRiver is using the DRI, not DLNA.
post #4395 of 4752
Quote:
Originally Posted by erickotz View Post

This is incorrect. JRiver is using the DRI, not DLNA.

Well you have to set up there media server for DLNA... and that is the instructions they provide. So while I may be wrong, I am only following their wrongness wink.gif
post #4396 of 4752
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken.F View Post

You might have WMC setup problems if you don't have a CableCARD. See Using the InfiniTV without a CableCARD (as ClearQAM) with Windows Media Center.
If you can manage to get it set up in WMC it should work. When my CableCARD went bad I used the InfiniTV as a Clear QAM tuner without a CableCARD while waiting for Verizon to send a replacement.

Thanks for the link! Sounds like it's a crapshoot getting the InfiniTV to work in WMC without a cablecard.

Still, I may give it a shot. I'll just have to be mentally ready either to return the new InfiniTV or to pay an additional monthly charge for the extra cablecard.
post #4397 of 4752
Quote:
Originally Posted by JorgeA View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by signcarver View Post

Two infiniTVs will require 2 cablecards if the content is encrypted (above I was mentioning protection, not encryption, two different things as protection controls "how many copies" such as copy once, copy never, and copy freely, while encryption controls whether or not the device can tune it) With comcast, most will be unprotected but (nearly) all will still be encrypted and will require a subscription and cablecard to decrypt. Each cablecard could process up to 6 streams but they must be paired to one device and each infiniTV is a separate device thus the requirement for 2 cards if you have 2 infiniTVs. I'm hopeful that by the time the new 4 tuner primes come out, ceton will release their infiniTV6 to take advantage of all 6 streams.per device.
Huh, interesting. Is there a way to have one InfiniTV withOUT a cablecard, assigned to tune only to Clear QAM channels, while the other InfiniTV has a cablecard and is allowed to record from any channel?

As Ken F said, it is possible... I myself used a ceton without a cablecard for many months but I did have an analog tuner which helped to move the process along, though shortly after I believe ceton stated their setup should fix that prior problem of requiring the analog tuner. When I was responding above, It was to someone who mentioned xfinity so I assume comcast and they are in the process of being all digital, and encrypting everything so if it hasn't happened yet, it probably will very soon for most comcast markets and at that time, any ceton or other cablecard tuner will require a cablecard to work as there will no longer be any clear qam available to view.

A problem that I had when using it as clear qam was that TBS etc. marked most of their programming as copy never (CGMS) and without a cablecard the CCI value wasn't used to override it as being copy freely (later changed to copy once when channel was moved off basic). There were other channels/programs that also did this including an occasional commercial within a program (in this case, it would sometimes stop the recording and try another tuner and I'd have like 10 parts to a program). I am not sure how this behaves in a mixed system where one card is using a cablecard and the other is just clear qam as the warning from windows suggested having a cablecard tuner.
post #4398 of 4752
Quote:
Originally Posted by signcarver View Post

it probably will very soon for most comcast markets and at that time, any ceton or other cablecard tuner will require a cablecard to work as there will no longer be any clear qam available to view.
.

I'm in the Atlanta area, Cobb county, which was the first pilot area if I recall when they encrypted all, or most channels out side of your major networks, 2007 I believe. they had this huge "block party at Towncenter mall, offering free food, entertainment, so that you can stand in line and pick up their POS DTA to watch crappy SD programing, which even seemed to down covert you digital signal to analog, horrible little box, I had a splitter for while so that I could switch inputs to watch HD on the TV's quam tuner, hence the beginning of my dislike for Comcast, and later ended up renting a second HD box just to be able to view what I was able to view only a few months before, but now I had to rent additional equipment, complete BS.

all I can say is why the hell did it take so long for a Ceton or SD to come out with a cable card tuner, lol, as soon as I read an article about the Ceton tuner, I immediately left work, and went straight to microcenter and purchased one.

Still waiting on the 6 tuner.
post #4399 of 4752
Newegg has an interesting combo deal on the InfiniTV 4 PCIe. You save $5 when you buy it with a Rosewill TV antenna! smile.gif
post #4400 of 4752
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken.F View Post

Newegg has an interesting combo deal on the InfiniTV 4 PCIe. You save $5 when you buy it with a Rosewill TV antenna! smile.gif

That's great, I love newegg, they've set the standard for internet PC sales, and will soon do the same with home furnishings and kitchenware wink.gif but you have to watch those combo's deals, not only do they not always make sense, some times the parts are not even compatible. I had a an issue with a gpu and a bare bones system a few years ago, the heat sink on the GPU was to large, and would not even fit.
post #4401 of 4752
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbailey75 View Post

I'm in the Atlanta area, Cobb county, which was the first pilot area if I recall when they encrypted all, or most channels out side of your major networks, 2007 I believe. they had this huge "block party at Towncenter mall, offering free food, entertainment, so that you can stand in line and pick up their POS DTA to watch crappy SD programing, which even seemed to down covert you digital signal to analog, horrible little box, I had a splitter for while so that I could switch inputs to watch HD on the TV's quam tuner, hence the beginning of my dislike for Comcast, and later ended up renting a second HD box just to be able to view what I was able to view only a few months before, but now I had to rent additional equipment, complete BS.

all I can say is why the hell did it take so long for a Ceton or SD to come out with a cable card tuner, lol, as soon as I read an article about the Ceton tuner, I immediately left work, and went straight to microcenter and purchased one.

Still waiting on the 6 tuner.

Something like this happened to us in 2009 when we went on vacation for a week. That turned out to be the week that Comcast chose to kill the analog channels (or was it encrypting basic cable, the details are getting fuzzy now), so when we came back I had a bunch of recordings on the VCRs that failed. mad.gif We ended up having to get a Comcast DVR. That's when I started to look for a new way to record cable that didn't involve paying an additional monthly fee to do what we could do before at no extra cost. Ceton eventually came to the rescue. smile.gif

We can still get on ClearQAM the local affiliates of the major broadcast networks, but who knows when they'll disappear.
post #4402 of 4752
Quote:
Originally Posted by JorgeA View Post

Something like this happened to us in 2009 when we went on vacation for a week. That turned out to be the week that Comcast chose to kill the analog channels (or was it encrypting basic cable, the details are getting fuzzy now), so when we came back I had a bunch of recordings on the VCRs that failed. mad.gif We ended up having to get a Comcast DVR. That's when I started to look for a new way to record cable that didn't involve paying an additional monthly fee to do what we could do before at no extra cost. Ceton eventually came to the rescue. smile.gif

We can still get on ClearQAM the local affiliates of the major broadcast networks, but who knows when they'll disappear.

I'm not trying to be a hater by any means (trust me--I love my iTV4), but it strikes me as strange that so many are talking about "getting the same thing we used to get for free" from the cable company. I don't know how other markets work, but my HD DVR from Cox was about $10 a month; the Ceton, purchased when it first came out, was $300 or $400. That's a lot of months of DVR rental right there, isn't it? Obviously, many features that the cable co's equipment lack are available, as well as the additional tuners and whatnot, but from a financial standpoint--at least in the short-term--it really doesn't seem like we're saving any money at all.

Just my .02; feel free to argue.
post #4403 of 4752
The math was a little different for me. My used Ceton was $100 versus $30/month for a DVR.
post #4404 of 4752
Same here- a 2 tuner DVR was ~$20 a month + tax. To get 4 tuners, it would ~$40/mo + tax and a crappy inteface to boot... I bought my iTV for $400 and have been using it roughly 2 years now. It's more than paid for iteself IMO.
post #4405 of 4752
I use my Ceton InfiniTV 4 exclusively now for my cable TV viewing. It still lacks the sensitivity and stability of my Tivo HD which was paid for years ago and in under forever subscription for the guide. I can't say I love it. More of a love/hate thing. I am hoping the next gen of the Prime is a better, more robust tuner than the current gen stuff from Ceton and Silicon Dust. The Tivo still has a cable card in it but no coax.

The Ceton wins on features and flexibility but as a pure tuner it just is not in the same league with the Tivo. To Ceton's credit it is a much better device than when I bought it. I paid the full initial price when they were finally generally available. I was not one of the pre-order optimimists. Maybe if you are on Verizon, the experience is different. I have Comcast and my cabling is pristine and my SNR and Signal strength numbers are very good but I still have far too much breakup that just did not occur with Tivo... even when the Tivo was getting a far worse signal coming in then I have today. For a long tme the two devices were on a dual splitter and the Tivo did not burble while the screen was just a mess on the Ceton.

So my cost of ownership has been high, especially considering it is still far from perfect and I used the Tivo pretty much full time the first year I had the Ceton as it just wasn't a useful device in the early days.
post #4406 of 4752
I was one of the preorder folks, so I have had mine for a long time now. I am on Verizon FiOS and the picture is perfect. I do agree with gtgray in that it is a far better product now than when it was first released. I have had absolutely no problems with it for a great many months now, but I still install the newest beta firmware and software to continue gaining improvements.
post #4407 of 4752
Quote:
Originally Posted by jreese831 View Post

I'm not trying to be a hater by any means (trust me--I love my iTV4), but it strikes me as strange that so many are talking about "getting the same thing we used to get for free" from the cable company. I don't know how other markets work, but my HD DVR from Cox was about $10 a month; the Ceton, purchased when it first came out, was $300 or $400. That's a lot of months of DVR rental right there, isn't it? Obviously, many features that the cable co's equipment lack are available, as well as the additional tuners and whatnot, but from a financial standpoint--at least in the short-term--it really doesn't seem like we're saving any money at all.

Just my .02; feel free to argue.

If you are REALLY only paying $10 per month for an HD DVR I would be shocked (and you should be happy). With 2 HD DVR's, my 'looking at my bill' math was WAY off with all of the hidden charges and fees. My bill dropped by about $45 per month when I switched from 2 HD-DVRS to a Ceton back in 2011, I was figuring on about $30 with the fees I could tell were on there. Since then, Comcast has raised them even higher and the savings is closer to $60-70 per month now. It all varies by company and by region.
post #4408 of 4752
^^^

OP isn't giving us the whole story. Cox HD DVR is indeed $10, but you have to add another $8.50 for the DVR box itself and another $5 for whole home DVR service. So the minimum cost is $18.50 for one room, $27 for 2 rooms and $32 for 2 rooms with shared recordings.
post #4409 of 4752
What's up guys? I'm currently a DirecTV user and I'm quite sick and tired of paying an arm and a leg, I would be more comfortable with just an arm. lol. I have a total of 3 DVR's in the house currently: 1 in the den, 1 in the theater, and 1 in my master bedroom. I have no experience with TV tuners/extenders so I have been following these threads closely to learn as much as possible. My basic plan is to first switch from DirecTV to Comcast. I plan to install the TV tuner card into my existing HTPC in the theater. Then, I plan on buying a couple of used Xbox slims to act as extenders for the master bedroom and the den. (I have been following the ceton echo extender thread and it seems as if that device still has a lot of bugs that need to be fixed.) I have a couple of questions about my future setup: firstly, does this setup sound okay? Also, will I be able to record programs from the extenders or do all recording/program management activities have to be done from the HTPC?
post #4410 of 4752
Quote:
Originally Posted by azula View Post

I have a couple of questions about my future setup: firstly, does this setup sound okay? Also, will I be able to record programs from the extenders or do all recording/program management activities have to be done from the HTPC?
That sounds like a good plan. You can do all of the recording management from the extenders.
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