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What Archive File Format Should I Use

post #1 of 19
Thread Starter 
I have an Canon Vixia HF200 that records in .MTS format and I'm using Corel Video X4 Pro video editing software.

I am a bit undecided on how to handle all the digital files that I will be creating. The way I see it, I will have two types of files; the raw .MTS files from the camera and the file format exported after I edit the video clips (add titles, transitions, take out the boring parts, etc). What file format should I export from Corel so that I get the best resolution on an HDTV (when the day comes that I actually own one)?

Corel offers several formats but these seem "better" in wome way:

HDV 1080i - 60i (for HDV)MPEG files
24 bits, 1440 x 1080, 29.97 fps
Upper Field First
(MPEG-2) (Transport stream), 16:9
Video data rate: 25000 kbps
Audio data rate: 384 kbps
MPEG audio layer 2, 48 KHz, Stereo

HDV 1080i - 60i (for PC)
MPEG files
24 bits, 1440 x 1080, 29.97 fps
Upper Field First
(MPEG-2), 16:9
Video data rate: 25000 kbps
Audio data rate: 384 kbps
MPEG audio layer 2, 48 KHz, Stereo

AVCHD 1920x1080
Data rate 18000 Kbps
Frame 29.97
16:9

WMV HD 1080 30p
Windows Media Video
24 bits, 1440 x 1080, 16:9, 29.97 fps
Frame-based
44.100 KHz, 16 bits, Stereo
Ulead - WMV HD 1080 30p

BlueRay Format
..not sure of the specs but it is an option.

So what format should I use that will give me the best HDTV experience. I will delete the raw files after the export is done so I need to get this right the first time.

Thank you.
post #2 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roam2Rome View Post

I have an Canon Vixia HF200 that records in .MTS format and I'm using Corel Video X4 Pro video editing software.

I am a bit undecided on how to handle all the digital files that I will be creating. The way I see it, I will have two types of files; the raw .MTS files from the camera and the file format exported after I edit the video clips (add titles, transitions, take out the boring parts, etc). What file format should I export from Corel so that I get the best resolution on an HDTV (when the day comes that I actually own one)?

Corel offers several formats but these seem "better" in wome way:

HDV 1080i - 60i (for HDV)MPEG files
24 bits, 1440 x 1080, 29.97 fps
Upper Field First
(MPEG-2) (Transport stream), 16:9
Video data rate: 25000 kbps
Audio data rate: 384 kbps
MPEG audio layer 2, 48 KHz, Stereo

HDV 1080i - 60i (for PC)
MPEG files
24 bits, 1440 x 1080, 29.97 fps
Upper Field First
(MPEG-2), 16:9
Video data rate: 25000 kbps
Audio data rate: 384 kbps
MPEG audio layer 2, 48 KHz, Stereo

AVCHD 1920x1080
Data rate 18000 Kbps
Frame 29.97
16:9

WMV HD 1080 30p
Windows Media Video
24 bits, 1440 x 1080, 16:9, 29.97 fps
Frame-based
44.100 KHz, 16 bits, Stereo
Ulead - WMV HD 1080 30p

BlueRay Format
..not sure of the specs but it is an option.

So what format should I use that will give me the best HDTV experience. I will delete the raw files after the export is done so I need to get this right the first time.

Thank you.


I wouldn't delete the originals anytime soon if I were you. CorelVideoStudio x2, x3, x4 all have a problem with transitions and AVCHD - there are "blips" that appear on the output. Take a good look at your output.
Shawn
post #3 of 19
Thread Starter 
Interesting. Well, it is a 30 day trial I'm using so I haven't spent any money yet. Thanks for the input.

May I ask what format you use for HDTV?
post #4 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roam2Rome View Post

Interesting. Well, it is a 30 day trial I'm using so I haven't spent any money yet. Thanks for the input.

May I ask what format you use for HDTV?

I use Sony Vegas Pro, and it depends on what I shoot with.

With the GH2 - if I shoot in 24p, I use the 23.976 progressive render option in 1920x1080. 29.97, I use that.

Is the Vixia HF200 a HDV camcorder? If so, I would just use the first output option. No reason to "upscale" to 1920x1080 as you won't get any benefit from 1440x1080 footage.
post #5 of 19
Thread Starter 
From Canon's website:
Quote:


FXP (17 Mbps) 4 hours 10 minutes - Allows 1920 x 1080 Full HD Recording
MXP (24 Mbps) 2 hours 55 minutes - Allows 1920 x 1080 Full HD Recording

So yes, it does support 1920 x 1080 which is what I shoot in.
post #6 of 19
Save source clips as is. As for rendered format, who cares. Use whichever you like, but keep the project so you could re-render anytime you want. I prefer rendering to AVC/AC3/TS with bitrate of at least 10 Mbit/s (usually I use 15 Mbit/s). This format works on a computer, good for upload and works for Blu-ray.
post #7 of 19
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shield View Post

I wouldn't delete the originals anytime soon if I were you. CorelVideoStudio x2, x3, x4 all have a problem with transitions and AVCHD - there are "blips" that appear on the output. Take a good look at your output.
Shawn

I checked a couple of videos that I have encoded and found no blips after any of the transitions. As a matter of fact, I found no blips anywhere at all. Maybe they have it fixed now. Not sure but I'm happy with it.
post #8 of 19
Thread Starter 
I retract that statement about NO blips in the video after a transition. I created this video with Corel Video Pro x4 and there is a blip at the 18 second mark.
http://youtu.be/2h4-xh4N-_4


Crap.
post #9 of 19
It would be nice if someone made something that would edit all the file formats without all the scamming for addons or lack of codec support.

I like SVP10 but I also like Power Director 9 it's eays to use but lossy format.
You have to manually edit the profile to get higher bitrates and it crashes if the file is too big.

Ungermann I know you are a big fan of progressive but what setting should work in SVP10 for 1920x1080 60i 24Mbps and with smart rendering so that just the cuts are rendered?

The Sony BDP-S580 I bought today does not play any of the files I rendered in SVP10.
post #10 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Cebu View Post
Ungermann I know you are a big fan of progressive but what setting should work in SVP10 for 1920x1080 60i 24Mbps and with smart rendering so that just the cuts are rendered?
If you want "smart render" that is, no re-encoding if there are no effects, then AFAIK Vegas cannot do that. Vegas 9 could do it, but apparently it was unstable and worked only for handful of formats, so Sony pulled this option out.

Officially, recordable DVDs are limited to 18 Mbit/s, which means that lower-quality formats like 5, 9, 13 and 17 Mbit/s do not require re-encoding for burning onto DVD. 24 Mbit/s on the other hand, is not legal for DVD media, you need either BD media or SDHC cards for distributing with this bitrate.

Panasonic's HD Writer can do "smart render", but again if you want to burn 24 Mbit/s onto DVD media you have to re-encode, otherwise get a BD burner. Frankly, I have never run Canon's software that comes with it camcorders (Pixela), so I don't know whether it can do "smart render".

I don't care much about "smart render" because I always edit my videos, at the very least I change levels. Also, I prefer rendering 1080i into 720p just because I hate interlaced video ;-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Cebu View Post
The Sony BDP-S580 I bought today does not play any of the files I rendered in SVP10.
You should be doing something wrong. My test DVD image was tested on the S270 and was reported to be fully playable: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post19730948 This image has five clips on it:

1) 1920x1080/29.97i, High@L4.0, encoded with Sony AVC. Set to 16 Mbit/s, actual overall bit rate: 13.6 Mbps.
2) 1920x1080/59.94p, High@L4.2, encoded with Sony AVC. Set to 16 Mbit/s, actual overall bit rate: 13.0 Mbps.
3) 1920x1080/59.94p, High@L4.2, encoded with Sony AVC. Set to 18 Mbit/s, actual overall bit rate: 14.6 Mbps.
4) 1920x1080/59.94p, High@L4.2, encoded with Sony AVC. Set to 20 Mbit/s, actual overall bit rate: 16.2 Mbps.
5) 1920x1080/59.94p, High@L4.2, original clip from the HDC-TM700, re-wrapped with tsMuxer (but not re-encoded!) Overall bit rate: 27.3 Mbps.

The first clip is your regular interlaced AVCHD video at reasonable 13 Mbit/s. This should play on any BD player with "AVCHD" mark. The next three clips are 1080p60 clips rendered from Sony Vegas using Sony AVC encoder. The last clip is the original file from the camcorder, unchanged.

Please, download that ISO image (follow the link on the thread I linked above), burn it to recordable DVD and try it out. This will be beneficial for other members.

I encoded the first 4 clips using this procedure: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKEP70GGjjA I am going to update this video for rendering on BD, because I bought a BD burner and a pack of BD-R discs recently.

post #11 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ungermann View Post
If you want "smart render" that is, no re-encoding if there are no effects, then AFAIK Vegas cannot do that. Vegas 9 could do it, but apparently it was unstable and worked only for handful of formats, so Sony pulled this option out.

Officially, recordable DVDs are limited to 18 Mbit/s, which means that lower-quality formats like 5, 9, 13 and 17 Mbit/s do not require re-encoding for burning onto DVD. 24 Mbit/s on the other hand, is not legal for DVD media, you need either BD media or SDHC cards for distributing with this bitrate.

Panasonic's HD Writer can do "smart render", but again if you want to burn 24 Mbit/s onto DVD media you have to re-encode, otherwise get a BD burner. Frankly, I have never run Canon's software that comes with it camcorders (Pixela), so I don't know whether it can do "smart render".

I don't care much about "smart render" because I always edit my videos, at the very least I change levels. Also, I prefer rendering 1080i into 720p just because I hate interlaced video ;-)

You should be doing something wrong. My test DVD image was tested on the S270 and was reported to be fully playable: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post19730948 This image has five clips on it:

1) 1920x1080/29.97i, High@L4.0, encoded with Sony AVC. Set to 16 Mbit/s, actual overall bit rate: 13.6 Mbps.
2) 1920x1080/59.94p, High@L4.2, encoded with Sony AVC. Set to 16 Mbit/s, actual overall bit rate: 13.0 Mbps.
3) 1920x1080/59.94p, High@L4.2, encoded with Sony AVC. Set to 18 Mbit/s, actual overall bit rate: 14.6 Mbps.
4) 1920x1080/59.94p, High@L4.2, encoded with Sony AVC. Set to 20 Mbit/s, actual overall bit rate: 16.2 Mbps.
5) 1920x1080/59.94p, High@L4.2, original clip from the HDC-TM700, re-wrapped with tsMuxer (but not re-encoded!) Overall bit rate: 27.3 Mbps.

The first clip is your regular interlaced AVCHD video at reasonable 13 Mbit/s. This should play on any BD player with "AVCHD" mark. The next three clips are 1080p60 clips rendered from Sony Vegas using Sony AVC encoder. The last clip is the original file from the camcorder, unchanged.

Please, download that ISO image (follow the link on the thread I linked above), burn it to recordable DVD and try it out. This will be beneficial for other members.

I encoded the first 4 clips using this procedure: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKEP70GGjjA I am going to update this video for rendering on BD, because I bought a BD burner and a pack of BD-R discs recently.

Ok lots to go over. First off I only archive to DVD so as long as the file size will fit I will burn it to DVDas a file. I don't care about distributing it. However if I did I would render it as something playable by the person I am sending it to. For YouTube I would render it to a 30p format. I've used that video a bunch oftimes the only thing is when i go to render as progressive it will not let me. It says failed and it doesn't know why.
I want master copies but some stuff really needs editing.
So Vegas 10 can't smart render and it doesn't like to give customized biitrates for Blu-ray either.
Also I am rendering the video and audio together.

I am very likely doing something wrong, the question is what.
The original file plays just fine. Here are the specs from Media info
Complete name : C:\\CONVERT\\01.MTS
Format : BDAV
Format/Info : Blu-ray Video
File size : 167 MiB
Duration : 59s 490ms
Overall bit rate : 23.5 Mbps
Maximum Overall bit rate : 24.0 Mbps
post #12 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Cebu View Post
Ok lots to go over. First off I only archive to DVD so as long as the file size will fit I will burn it to DVDas a file. I don't care about distributing it.
Then I don't get the question. To me archiving is preserving the original clips as is. Dump them onto any media - HDD, DVD, BD - and consider them binary files. Do not expect them to be playable from a BD player or any other device besides a computer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Cebu View Post
However if I did I would render it as something playable by the person I am sending it to. For YouTube I would render it to a 30p format. I've used that video a bunch of times the only thing is when i go to render as progressive it will not let me. It says failed and it doesn't know why.
Change profile from Main to High.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Cebu View Post
I want master copies but some stuff really needs editing. So Vegas 10 can't smart render and it doesn't like to give customized biitrates for Blu-ray either.
20 Mbit/s up to 10c inclusively, and unlimited (reportedly) in 10d. Other than bitrate everything else is customizable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Cebu View Post
I am very likely doing something wrong, the question is what. The original file plays just fine.
Does the original file live in AVCHD folder structure, and the new one just sits somewhere in an arbitrary folder? Follow instructions in the video, only render to a regular interlaced file (29.97 frames/s, upper field first) and see how it works for you.
post #13 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ungermann View Post

Then I don't get the question. To me archiving is preserving the original clips as is. Dump them onto any media - HDD, DVD, BD - and consider them binary files. Do not expect them to be playable from a BD player or any other device besides a computer.

Change profile from Main to High.

20 Mbit/s up to 10c inclusively, and unlimited (reportedly) in 10d. Other than bitrate everything else is customizable.

Does the original file live in AVCHD folder structure, and the new one just sits somewhere in an arbitrary folder? Follow instructions in the video, only render to a regular interlaced file (29.97 frames/s, upper field first) and see how it works for you.


I did change Main profile to High I tried to set it above 16Mbps but that is the limit for AVCHD. If I use AVC the file is unreadable by my laptop.

I do not know what this means.
"20 Mbit/s up to 10c inclusively, and unlimited (reportedly) in 10d. Other than bitrate everything else is customizable."

The original file does not live in an AVCHD structure, should it? The new on is in a folder I call CONVERTED.
It's not giving me anything abouve 16Mbps. Interlaced AVCHD is such a PITA!
It's rendering now but it's reset to 16Mbps because I switched it to AVCHD instead of AVC. AVC just shows an unrecognized file.
post #14 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Cebu View Post

AVC just shows an unrecognized file.

Have you watched the video till the end?

Sony AVC renderer in Vegas gives you three container options: M[2]TS, AVC and something else, I don't remember (MP4 ?) If you want to render to M[2]TS, your options for video control are limited. Use AVC and then mux with audio.
post #15 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ungermann View Post

Have you watched the video till the end?

Sony AVC renderer in Vegas gives you three container options: M[2]TS, AVC and something else, I don't remember (MP4 ?) If you want to render to M[2]TS, your options for video control are limited. Use AVC and then mux with audio.


Ok so I have to create the audio track seperately and mux it and then save it as a TS file.
I can't play that file beforehand tho.
post #16 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Cebu View Post

Ok so I have to create the audio track seperately and mux it and then save it as a TS file.

Yep.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Cebu View Post

I can't play that file beforehand tho.

Why does this matter? You will be able to play the resultant file. You can mux without audio, this means simple rewrapping from AVC file into TS stream.
post #17 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ungermann View Post

Yep.
Why does this matter? You will be able to play the resultant file. You can mux without audio, this means simple rewrapping from AVC file into TS stream.


I am going to have to try it with a small clip like under a minute and see how it works. When it comes to software you really know your stuff.
post #18 of 19
Ok, Vegas 10d is limited to 26 Mbit/s, same as Panasonic and Sony formats. But it does indeed spike to 32 Mbit/s and even to 42 Mbit/s at the very beginning of the clip. Not acceptable. I am trying to use lower bitrate in attempt to reduce the spikes. Will report back later.
post #19 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ungermann View Post

Ok, Vegas 10d is limited to 26 Mbit/s, same as Panasonic and Sony formats. But it does indeed spike to 32 Mbit/s and even to 42 Mbit/s at the very beginning of the clip. Not acceptable. I am trying to use lower bitrate in attempt to reduce the spikes. Will report back later.


MediaInfo shows even highr spikes than that on my files even the one out of the camera shows a spike of 35Mbps!
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