How do I verify - or debunk - the claims of The Upgrade Company? - Page 5

Not really..I don't you read that correctly

First off...yes..I was stating a point that was subjective..to me
Quite frankly there was some sarcasm in there as well

I could have said my 885 sounds 110% better than the 5508...right?

Next...I am not sure anyone can definitively prove or disprove the similarities between these two units unless they are an Onkyo employee..ie..assembling the units and knows the specific parts etc..right?

So....my point...
how much of what has been stated is subjective and speculation?

Granted...the fully balanced part can be proven quickly by opening the unit

Otherwise...what can be definitively proved?


Warren

This is simple, you are arguing that people on here claimed that the 80.2 and 5508 are different. You are also arguing that the 5508 is fully balanced.

NO ONE on this thread has made these claims, the claims were made by The Upgrade Company (TUC) and Prepar just started this thread to find out if it is indeed true or not.

You are arguing points to the wrong people, these are points that TUC has made.


That's what we are all trying to find out.

Actually..I have not listened to the 5508

But I was just in my local AV dealer this after noon that carries both Anthem and Integra( as well as Krell, McIntosh, Ayre,Cary,Denon etc)

So..yes..I am very aware that Anthem has two different quality levels
One was a little more than twice the price of the 80.2 and the other was about 3 times the price of the 80.2

I listened to all three of them today in the showroom

Actually ..IF I was influenced by what people say I was say the 80.2 was the best thing since sliced bread with the new "highs and wides" and that the other stuff was just "overpriced".

Trust me..after listening today...I don't agree with what I have "heard"..I say that in reference to the Onkyo and Integra threads in this forum...truthfully I have not really read the Anthem threads. I would imagine if I read the Anthem threads the owners would say they have the best thing since "sliced bread" and their products are worth every penny they paid...

Though to be fair...I do believe the Statement D2V is the "reference" piece in preamps in many of the audiophile publications

According to the salesguy at Genesis Audio(Gahanna Ohio)...where I listened to the pieces today
The Integra 80.2 has the option of the custom Audessey programming that the Onkyo does not have
I have no idea if thats true...but they charge $400 for this optional service

Back to the Anthem..in no way did the 80.2 sound as good as the AVM50V or the Statement

In regard to Home theater...I would say the 80.2 was 85-90% of the AVM 50...and frankly the Statement sounded, to my ears, about the same as the AVM50
Both Anthems and the Integra were connected to their same brand, respectively, multichannel amp

Where the big difference lies was in music, I listen to a lot of contemporary jazz with instrumentals
Not even close...both Anthems all day long by a wide margin. If I assigned a percentage as I did above...where the Statement was 100%, I would say the Integra was 65% and the AVM50V 90%
The salesman suggested that some have bought a good 2 channel preamp for music...as he had done
For some reason that is not something I thought desirable

Now..if you want to talk $$...what I could not justify was the difference in price between the AVM 50V and the Statement D2

I would say the lower model(AVM50V) is 95% of the Statement...considering the aspects I am interested in. Things like the better video processing in the Statement are worth nothing to me..as I only watch HD sources and would prefer a 100% video pass through from the source material

So...the question could be...does the 5508 sound like the 80.2?

if I were a betting man I would say yes...if anything I guess the 80.2 should have a notch up on the 5508

The salesman told me the Anthem room correction was better than Audessey...who knows

This is a shop that does a lot of custom install business. In fact that is really their market niche...not the "walk in and buy a component type of customer"...so perhaps he knew what he was talking about

I have never thought a room correction program could make up the difference for big variances in component quality

So that is my take from listening to several units this afternoon

any other questions?


Warren

Other than the fully balanced part of it...which can proven and quickly with disassembly and a camera

what can you(or TUC) definitively prove( or disprove) one way or another?

Does someone in this thread work for Onkyo and has information on parts and assembly?...and could back this up with documentation?


This goes for TUC as well and the ability to disprove anything they have said

So you..in theory you could go round and round...and neither side( argument) has definitive evidence one way or another than can be proven?

My thought is unless TUC met the above requirements why is what they say even of any merit or frankly worth the time spent on checking it out?

You could start your own thread and say just the opposite thing...right?
The first question I would ask is if this was even credible information...using the above criteria

That is my point

Warren

Sorry,

In the right circumstances and with the proper equipment cables- ICs, Coax, speaker and quite possibly HDMI for audio, and power cords can make a difference in the audio. Some cables and power cords in my system when changed can be noted immediately.

Rich

Wow Warren,

So you went into a store and listened to 3 separate systems in I would guess 3 separate rooms and from this you got all the information to set us all straight. I guess I was dumb to go ahead and purchase all these pre-amps to try in my own system, in my own room, with all the same electronics and speakers and make up my own mind.

The truth is that a pre-amp could be the best in a particular system and be not as good in another. Instead of relying on a salesman on anyone else to tell me what is the best I prefer to buy the product I am interested in and listen for my-self. In the end it is not what others think my system sounds like, but what is pleasing to me.

And please don't think that I may be jealous because I can't afford the Anthem D2V, I have owned a pre-pro that retails for twice the price and also owned an Anthem when they first came out. It doesn't matter to me what the product costs, only that it sounds good to me. Hopefully the 5508 is a great pre-pro, I will receive it on Tuesday, if it's not then I will sell it and try something new.

I am not going to go round and round on this as it has strayed way of topic so I will just drop it from here on out.

I'm well aware of that claim by subjectivist audiophiles such as yourself. I'm also well aware that there is no sound engineering basis for such a claim, nor has it been verified by properly conducted double blind listening tests. I'm further aware of the usual subjectivist responses to what I just said:

a. Tests? I don't need no stinkin' tests! All I need are my ears, not some scientist. What do scientists know anyway? Besides, tests are too "stressful".

b. People may have failed tests with other setups, but MY ears/equipment/setup is SPECIAL.

Been there, done that--MANY times. Sorry, your subjectivist perceptions are not Ultimate Reality. Not by light years.

Jeff,

However, an upgraded or modified Onkyo 5508 or even 885 may well sound better than the stock Anthem Statement unit. It would not be surprising if this were the case in the least.

Rich

Science and measurements do not give all of the answers. We may not be asking the right question or making the proper measurements. By the way, I am trained as a scientist and have 2 Grad degrees in science though they are not physics or engineering.

Rich

Philosophically speaking Rich, why would it be desirable to have equipment whose performance is subject to a power cord or some kind of an interconnect?

Some of us like to tinker if you will trying tweaks etc. in our systems. Testing different ICs, power cords, etc. can potentially yield unexpected results. Sometimes you can hear no difference, other times they can be quite noticeable, sometimes with only slight differences noted.

I am not suggesting that anyone spend large sums of money on cabling, but there are some reasonably priced cables and power cords that may be worth experimenting with. Also, some pieces of equipment can be more affected by some wire than other pieces of equipment. We have been having a fair number of discussions on WBF about cables, their potential reasons for differences in sound, perception, etc. Of course, just like here there are believers and there are nay sayers. Only you can find out for yourself through some listening experiments.


Jeff,

We may at least have an opportunity to compare the stock versus my upgraded Oppo 885 as we have taken this off thread. I have personally had the opportunity early on to listen to the initial upgrade of my 885 versus some expensive 2 channel Preamps. Many here would say that the tests were not conducted adequately and no measurements were made. But, leave it to say, whatever anyone here would say, the upgraded Onkyo 885 performed quite admirably compared to the much more expensive machines.

Rich

I listened to three different systems in 2 different rooms
I was going to listen a 4th system..the Rotel ..but time did not permit

I am not sure what you meant by set you "straight"?
My thought was that acoustically the rooms were the same...and yes after I narrow it down I will demo it in my own house with my own speakers

I just stated what I heard in the stores theater rooms

Why would I think you are jealous?
I could easily have though my 885 sounded better than the 80.2..

In your words
"only that it sounds good to me"...

thats really all that matters right?

I have heavily considered buying the 5508 myself.

By the way...what preamps did you demo before choosing the 5508?

I really need to audition the 885 and 5508( or 80.2 I guess) back to back...to see if there is enough difference to justify the move..or should I spend more and make a bigger jump

To be sure, the law of diminishing returns certainly applies

Interesting thing the salesman also told me today as well:
They had sold 80.2 to several people who had spent thousands more on preamps in the past
The issue being that now is that person has a $7K dinosaur on their hands...a great piece for what it does..but missing the latest technology

With the the thought that technology has changed more quickly recently than in past years... they bought the 80.2 for their theater and kept their older preamp for music
The 80.2...to my ears..can really hold its own( or very close to) in HT with pieces that are twice the price
I feel the same way about the 885 though...and what's the diminishing return to the 5508/80.2?

Each person has their ears( and wallet lol) to determine what's worth it and what's not

Warren

sure it could

but what product could that not apply to?

I am pretty with enough modification you could make a Kia into a Mercedes

Not that there is anything wrong with driving either one...but anything can be modified with enough work to make it very different

Warren

This is part of the reason that some of us consider either purchasing upgraded or modified equipment for equipment such as Pre/Pros. Like computers there are rapid changes going on. If you do not need the latest and greatest though, you can keep your Pre/Pros for at least several years and leap frogging technology. For me, I still have my upgraded 885 but may take a leap to a newer unit sometime in the future. And this unit has served me well for years and cost a lot less than many of the HiEnd products. I took a beating when I sold my Proceed AVP and replaced it with the better sounding and current upgraded Onkyo.

Rich

Exactly as I anticipated, Rich. It doesn't matter if you're trained as a scientist. What matters is not using scientific methods to make your listening comparisons.

BTW, a double blind listening test involves NO measurements other than setting levels.

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showth...es-don-t-exist

Rich

Jeff

You should not use any preconceived notions and go listen to the units yourself and be the judge..if you are interested in forming your own opinions
That is what I did

There is nothing that says you will have the same feeling I did...as we have different ears

Whether Anthem has smart people or not...I am sure every audio manufacturer has smart people that do a lot of things really well
In fact that is consistent in about every consumer product available

Clearly the two products are aimed at 2 different markets...so cross listening to them was just an exercise on my part, that likely never happens in the real world with perspective buyers.

Interesting comment you make about the 885 to the 5508..."stunningly superior"

As I have said before..I have not heard the 5508..only the 80.2
Seats of the pants says its not "stunningly superior" to my 885

Using my percentages as I did before...stunningly superior places one component at 100% and one at about 50%
I really doubt I could expect anywhere close to that..to my ears...with a move to the 5508

Warren

Familiar debates. BTW, you said:


That tells me you you believe you could tell the difference one hundred percent of the time in a DBT. You wouldn't worry about confidence levels.

Absolutely...I would not want a 10K dinosaur on my hands
Imagine those that bought a Krell Showcase for $10-12K 5 years ago
Anytime technology changes you will take a beating...I am not sure you can expect a high end product...that is not current...to give you much back in the resale market
But many of those pieces...for what they can do..are still better than anything else
Look at a 10yr old Mercedes S class

Back to audio...I have an old Pioneer VSX47TX receiver...a 65# tank
Its way more musical than my 885 is...but has no HDMI and can't decode the newest codes
The pieces that the 885 replaced....a Chiro C800/C5.1 combo
Again...for what it could do..it was a much better sounding piece...warmer sounding and a lot more musical...than the 885

But..again..it was crippled with limited functionality

Does the market dictate that you need to rebuy one of these every 3-4 years?

It seems that way to me.....just like TV's
Think about what a dinosaur even the highest end TV from 5 years ago...that has been supplanted by something that is better, has more functionality and is 50% of the cost

So a buyer would need to think long and hard about a $7-$10K audio investment in regards to pre/pros

Warren

I fully agree with you on that one , I'd rather drop serious cash on the other things in my system than the pre/pro because now they are just actually a computer that processes various signals & a switching mechanism
which brings us back to the modding of a pre/pro ......

IBTL Where's the popcorn?

You want buttered or salted ?

I agree, it is hard to justify spending money for a high end pre-pro with the way things change so fast these days.

My last really high end pre-pro was the Halcro SSP-220 and it was the best sounding pre-pro for movies I ever owned. Only the Proceed AVP2 and Meridian G68 were better for music but for movies they didn't compare. I was tempted to buy the Classe SSP-800 but to be honest I don't have the free time anymore to listen to music as much so movies are now my main priority.

To your earlier post mentioning the Onkyo not being Audyssey Pro capable and the Integra having that option the salesman was wrong. The earlier 5507 was not Pro capable but Onkyo added Pro capabilities to the 5508, Jeff has his 5508 Pro calibrated and I will do the same when I get my 5508.

I gotta 5008 but i don't need or want the Pro XT32 Audyssey.......I love the XT32 ...
Heck I'd be fine tuning every week ..If i had that Pro=Kit
I mean ..Yeah I refine to a point .. but having the option to play with the curves Nah I know myself too well , .. wife thinks I'm nutz now !

Heck he wasn't wrong he knew that ! He was up-selling ...I trust High End Audio salesmen as much as Used car salesmen ! Not !

Well the salesman is wrong, or he just flat out lied to you. Both the 80.2 and the 5508 have the option of Audyssey Pro calibration, either by having Audyssey Pro dealer do the Pro calibration or by buying your own Audyssey Pro installers kit.


Make up your mind, they will sound the same.

But if you bet on the 80.2 being better, it would be a bet that you would also lose.


The Anthems ARC room correction has more options and adjust ability than the standard built in version Audyssey that is offered in the Integra/Onkyo, however if you compare it to the Audyssey Pro version, then if you put them up against each other they are probably more equal than you would think.


And of course he is also going to want to try and sell a person whatever he can to maximize his profits, and likely will start out with trying to steer people towards his more premium products.