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How do I verify - or debunk - the claims of The Upgrade Company? - Page 16

post #451 of 1596
Quote:
Originally Posted by RUR View Post

Apparently, Mr. S continues to be his usual, tactful self.

http://www.meridianunplugged.com/ubb...=148622&page=3

I've seen the way that this person (owner?) behaves on forums, and his behavior is shocking - particularly for a business owner who you would think would want to build good rapport and represent himself and his company with dignity and respect.
post #452 of 1596
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Slappy reports that he definitely hears a difference and thinks it's worth it.

Jeff

OK, Now why am I getting drawn into this ??
post #453 of 1596
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

Well then that settles it.

Bill

Bill is that a Knock on ME ?
post #454 of 1596
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fastslappy View Post

Bill is that a Knock on ME ?

Not at all. I have no idea if you actually have TUC modded gear or not. If you do and you are happy with it then I'm happy for you. But I have not seen any types of reviews with actual measurements that would prove that TUC modded components actually improves the SQ over the stock component. Seeing the way Dave Schulte conducted himself on this forum and others indicates that he is a person I would stay away from.

Bill
post #455 of 1596
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fastslappy View Post

OK, Now why am I getting drawn into this ??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fastslappy View Post

Bill is that a Knock on ME ?

Mike,

I mentioned you as someone who's not here to shill for TUC .. someone who has a product and is happy with it .. and someone who has refrained from getting drawn into it. Personally, I am still in the agnostic camp, though admittedly I find Mr. Shulte's forum conduct odd .. and his website masterfully crafted to present his products and services.

Jeff
post #456 of 1596
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Mike,

I mentioned you as someone who's not here to shill for TUC .. someone who has a product and is happy with it .. and someone who has refrained from getting drawn into it. Personally, I am still in the agnostic camp, though admittedly I find Mr. Shulte's forum conduct odd .. and his website masterfully crafted to present his products and services.

Jeff

OK !

It's Cool ,

Yeah I'm not a shill by any means , I'm a picky butt-wipe thou .....

I'm happy with the mod , & if I wasn't happy , he'd bought it back from me ................
He does stand behind his work , I know for a fact that he will replace a modded unit & also replace a unit that a buyer buys from him if the buyer is Not Happy .
That was the only reason I went with him ,I didn't have anything to lose .
& I like how my 5008 now works VS what I had before I sent it to him .
post #457 of 1596
It's too bad the A/B test couldn't be done, with or without the switcher. If it was me, I'd still want to do the comparison, even without the switcher. Easy for me to say, because I'm not into measurement data or blind tests. I myself have a TUC modified Onkyo 5508 processor, and I definitely like it. I've had several processors in my home for periods of time in the last couple of years:

1) TUC upgraded Marantz AV8003
2) Arcam AV888
3) Arcam AVR600
4) Arcam AV8
5) TUC upgraded Onkyo 5508
6) Marantz AV7005

Right now, I'm sending my 5508 to an Onkyo Service Center to have some of the known issues fixed. So, I dropped in a Marantz AV7005, and it's not bad, but it's definitely not my Onkyo. The Onkyo has a lower noise floor, clearer sound, and tighter bass. When I mention clearer sound, it's harder to describe than just that. Some might think more detail, but to me, it's like a veil has been removed. Anyways, I can't wait to get my Onkyo back.

I know I'm in the subjective camp, not caring about measurements or DBT, etc, but my subjective opinion is what is important for me. I also realize that many of you prefer measurements and/or blind tests, so I know that my comments are really meaningless for you. It would be cool if someone on the measurement/DBT side of the fence were able to get one of these and provide their opinion.

Thanks,
Dave
post #458 of 1596
Thread Starter 
Hi Dave,

Did you own the 5508 for a while before it was modded, or own the AV8003 similarly before it was modded? If so, what differences did you hear? If not, then what made you go right to a 2x priced modded unit directly?

FWIW, my (stock) 5508 is quieter and clearer/more detailed ... curtain lifted if you will ... than my (stock) 885.

Jeff
post #459 of 1596
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Hi Dave,

Did you own the 5508 for a while before it was modded, or own the AV8003 similarly before it was modded? If so, what differences did you hear? If not, then what made you go right to a 2x priced modded unit directly?

FWIW, my (stock) 5508 is quieter and clearer/more detailed ... curtain lifted if you will ... than my (stock) 885.

Jeff

Hi Jeff,

Excellent question! I did not own the stock 5508 or the AV8003 prior to the upgrade. I did, however, have a Pioneer Elite BDP-05FD that I had bought stock and then had David upgrade. As you can probably tell from my list, I've really liked "stock" Arcam equipment in the past, so I was comparing the Pioneer with my Arcam DV27A DVD player. Playing DVD's, the Arcam had a better picture and better sound than the Pioneer. I was able to go back and forth between the two, and it was frustrating for me at the time, because Arcam didn't have a blu ray player.

Anyways, I read about TUC on forums - both good posts and bad posts. I was really leary about getting the Pioneer upgraded and I knew it was a risk. The Pioneer was a fairly low cost item, which made the risk lower for me, and David promised a new stock Pioneer, if I didn't like the upgrade. So, I went for it. I'm glad I did. The picture was much improved, and that was over the component output. The audio over the analog outputs also improved. It was much closer to the sound of the Arcam, so I was happy. From there, I felt a little more confident, so I bought an AV8003 from him for a good deal, because someone traded it in for a more expensive processor. Anyways, been trying out things from there.

Thanks, Dave
post #460 of 1596
Quote:
Originally Posted by thezaks View Post

So, I dropped in a Marantz AV7005, and it's not bad, but it's definitely not my Onkyo. The Onkyo has a lower noise floor, clearer sound, and tighter bass. When I mention clearer sound, it's harder to describe than just that. Some might think more detail, but to me, it's like a veil has been removed. Anyways, I can't wait to get my Onkyo back.

I had the same experience with a stock AV7005 and 5508. The Onkyo just sounds more detailed with better separation and definitely better bass.

It would definitely be interesting to do a comparison between a stock and TUC upgraded SSP but it doesn't look like it will happen. If you can carry it out then props to you.
post #461 of 1596
Quote:
Originally Posted by thezaks View Post

I did not own the stock 5508 or the AV8003 prior to the upgrade.

Statements like this never fail to stun me.
post #462 of 1596
I owned my 5008 for 7 months before the up-grade/ mod
post #463 of 1596
Thread Starter 
You are my ground, Mike.
post #464 of 1596
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Statements like this never fail to stun me.

I agree with you Kal. I could have bought a 5508 and then try the upgrade, but I bought the 5508 on faith that it would be an improvement, based upon my experience with the Pioneer (even though I have no idea if it really is better). I can understand/appreciate that you and others would view that as a really silly (putting it midly) decision. I really have no other defense, other than having faith in David, based upon my experience with the Pioneer.

Dave
post #465 of 1596
Quote:
Originally Posted by thezaks View Post

Hi Jeff,

Excellent question! I did not own the stock 5508 or the AV8003 prior to the upgrade. I did, however, have a Pioneer Elite BDP-05FD that I had bought stock and then had David upgrade. As you can probably tell from my list, I've really liked "stock" Arcam equipment in the past, so I was comparing the Pioneer with my Arcam DV27A DVD player. Playing DVD's, the Arcam had a better picture and better sound than the Pioneer. I was able to go back and forth between the two, and it was frustrating for me at the time, because Arcam didn't have a blu ray player.

Anyways, I read about TUC on forums - both good posts and bad posts. I was really leary about getting the Pioneer upgraded and I knew it was a risk. The Pioneer was a fairly low cost item, which made the risk lower for me, and David promised a new stock Pioneer, if I didn't like the upgrade. So, I went for it. I'm glad I did. The picture was much improved, and that was over the component output. The audio over the analog outputs also improved. It was much closer to the sound of the Arcam, so I was happy. From there, I felt a little more confident, so I bought an AV8003 from him for a good deal, because someone traded it in for a more expensive processor. Anyways, been trying out things from there.

Thanks, Dave

Just to be clear, you sent the Pioneer in and a month or so later it came back.

And you believe that it is better than the unit you hadn't seen or heard for a month?

And which you paid twice its cost in the belief it would be better?

Can you see why some might be concerned about the placebo affect?

Then you pay double the usual cost for an AV8003 without even knowing what the stock unit sounds like.

Can you see why some might wonder how on earth you could possibly know if there has been any improvement?

Your faith is charming.
post #466 of 1596
Thread Starter 
TUC has an amazing business model.
post #467 of 1596
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

TUC has an amazing business model.

If he wouldn't make such over the top claims then he'd have a better rept.
As he does stand behind all his units , If you are not happy he will replace or refund .
post #468 of 1596
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fastslappy View Post

If he wouldn't make such over the top claims then he'd have a better rept.
As he does stand behind all his units , If you are not happy he will replace or refund .

And we'll never know how many people exercise that guarantee.
post #469 of 1596
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Dodds View Post

Just to be clear, you sent the Pioneer in and a month or so later it came back.

And you believe that it is better than the unit you hadn't seen or heard for a month?

And which you paid twice its cost in the belief it would be better?

Can you see why some might be concerned about the placebo affect?

Then you pay double the usual cost for an AV8003 without even knowing what the stock unit sounds like.

Can you see why some might wonder how on earth you could possibly know if there has been any improvement?

Your faith is charming.

Hi Steve,

Based upon what you mentioned, I'd somewhat agree with you. However, you may have missed some items that I had mentioned in my post, which "might" make more sense.

First, I did not pay double for an AV8003 - as I mentioned, I got a really good deal. I paid less than the cost of a new AV8003.

Second, my Pioneer was gone for just under two weeks, rather than a month - probably no different with regards to your suggested placebo effect. However, and more importantly, I was not comparing the audio/video of the stock pioneer directly with the audio/video of the upgraded pioneer. There was not a way to do that, except based upon memory. I was not relying upon that. I was comparing the audio/video of the stock Pioneer to my Arcam DV27A, and it did not compare for DVD's. When I received the upgraded Pioneer, I compared it again to the Arcam. It seemed OK, but still wasn't there yet. Even though I was hoping it was going to be much improved, the performance was not there. After about 1-2 weeks of running it 24X7, I compared it again with the Arcam, and the audio/video was very close to the Arcam. As a stock unit, it was never that close.

Again, for me, that's enough to convince me. I definitely understand that subjective viewing/listening would not convince many of you; hence, my posts are not an attempt to convince you or anyone else. I also understand that my way of comparing would not satisfy those that require blind tests. I'm just posting my experience.


Thanks, Dave
post #470 of 1596
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by thezaks View Post


I definitely understand that subjective viewing/listening would not convince many of you; hence, my posts are not an attempt to convince you or anyone else. I also understand that my way of comparing would not satisfy those that require blind tests. I'm just posting my experience.

And I respect you for doing so. Most times his customers are not so balanced.

Jeff
post #471 of 1596
Thread Starter 
A listening test was done last Friday with my stock 5508 and a member's TUC-modded 5508. It was what it was, and while I will answer any questions about what we did and how we did it, I do not want to get drawn into an argument. I'm sure that it could have been conducted more scientifically and/or more thoroughly, but I think we did as much as we could under the circumstances.

I have some tasks to take care of here around the house, and when they are done I will continue my description.

Jeff
post #472 of 1596
Thanks for taking the time to do a comparison.

I just really want to know your thoughts on if there was a difference, if so how much and if in your opinion it was a worthwhile upgrade.

For the amount of money these upgrades cost if there wasn't a real apparent difference then I have the info I need. Upgrades that you have to convince your-self made a difference, no matter how small, are not worth it to me.
post #473 of 1596
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjaudio View Post

Thanks for taking the time to do a comparison.

I just really want to know your thoughts on if there was a difference, if so how much and if in your opinion it was a worthwhile upgrade.

For the amount of money these upgrades cost if there wasn't a real apparent difference then I have the info I need. Upgrades that you have to convince your-self made a difference, no matter how small, are not worth it to me.

+1

Cheers,
SB
post #474 of 1596
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjaudio View Post

Thanks for taking the time to do a comparison.

I just really want to know your thoughts on if there was a difference, if so how much and if in your opinion it was a worthwhile upgrade.

For the amount of money these upgrades cost if there wasn't a real apparent difference then I have the info I need. Upgrades that you have to convince your-self made a difference, no matter how small, are not worth it to me.

You are asking the wrong questions. This was an attempt at a controlled comparison/test and, in addition to a full disclosure of the conditions, only the statistical results are important.
post #475 of 1596
Thread Starter 
We used a Zektor MAS7.1 3X1 7.1 Channel AV Switch w/3X1 HDMI Switcher to select the single-ended 5.1 outputs of one DUT (Device Under Test) or the other. There was also am HDMI splitter feeding an input on each DUT with the output of an Oppo BDP-83. Channels were balanced using the internal test signals and a Radio Shack SLM and the speaker level trims. Next a test CD was used to check SPL at -5dB, -10dB and -20dB to check volume control tracking; they tracked exactly the same.

The speaker system was from Legacy ... and I forget the models. Hopefully Dennis will post some more details, but they sounded great. And the name of the amplification escapes me as well at this time, but it is an esoteric brand.

When I arrived the two members there were just coming up from the basement (where the system is located) and the owner of the modded unit immediately said that they were hearing differences and they were along the lines of finer detail. Right at that moment, the thought went through my mind that I should stick my fingers in my ears and chant la-la-la-la, but I didn't. They both went on to explain further that the differences were subtle. Dennis observed that the differences were nowhere near the differences we had heard the evening before when we set up my 5508 with his 885. We grabbed some sandwiches and then went down to the setup.

Dennis, Craig and I had picked some recordings the evening before that we thought would be good test material. We reviewed those selections in a sighted test. Some were rejected because we could not hear any differences. We only used material with which we could hear differences in the sighted test. We ended up with six stereo recordings and five multichannel ones. Comfortable listening levels were agreed upon and written down. Also, the tracks and the timestamps were written. The passages tended to be anywhere from 50-some seconds to just over a minute.

Then on to the blind A/B/X test. The person who loaned us the switch, who can step forward if he cares to identify himself, had "pre-programmed" the sequences, so all the person running the test needed to do was put in the correct disc, set the master volumes, select the DUT to use and hit play. At the end of the passage, hit pause, SWITCH TO THE UNUSED INPUT and then to whatever DUT was up next and hit chapter reverse .. which started the song from the top. Next, pause the song, do the input thing, select the DUT designated as "X" and begin the song.

Dennis next ran the test for the modded unit's owner and then I ran it for Dennis. We took a break before moving to the 5.1 portion. I went first and then had to leave. While on my way home, Craig called to say he would not be able to make it. And neither of the other two members who expressed interest were able to make it either, so they finished the test with no additional ears.

Before I divulge my results and the overall results, I will comment on the sighted listening. In every instance of recordings that we had heard a difference, we had all thought the modded unit had ever so slightly more detail ... as if a thin veil had been lifted. This listening involved instantaneously switching mid-note from one DUT to the other and bakc again. So I went into the blind test with a lot of confidence that I would both get "X" and select the modded DUT as my preference. There was an optional column for that choice; the real test was to identify "X" after being told here's A, here's B now which one is this?

On the stereo test, my results were 5/6 (83%) correctly identified as "X" and - ta da! - 5/6 (83%) I preferred the STOCK unit. On the 5.1, I missed them all bit preferred the stock unit 3/5 (60%). Over the two tests, I preferred the stock unit 8/11 (73%). I am flummoxed as I choose the one I thought to have the better inner detail, something the sighted portion had me thinking modded.

Overall - any of the others that want to step up and post their individual results that is up to them - the group preferred the modded unit 17 out of 33 times - 51.51% of the time. As a group overall, we correctly identified X only 42% of the time (14/33). All of us did better on the stereo test than the MCH test.

I do have one conclusion based on this test and that is the The Upgrade Company fails miserably in meeting the lofty claims on their website. And their going on and on about "For Profit Built" competitors is a huge helping of barnyard dung ... as if they aren't in it for profit. Sheesh.

At this point, I don't trust sighted tests where, I think, you will hear what you think you should hear. As for their money back guarantee, I would consider that like the old Jedi mind trick. After I HEARD A DIFFERENCE AND PREFERRED THE MODDED UNIT DURING THE SIGHTED TEST, I have no trouble believing that customers who buy from them already want to believe so they will hear an improvement. The 100% satisfaction guarantee? As I said, having plunked down the money because they believed what they read - or heard from a "testimonial", they do hear an improvement ... just like me.

I dare - no double dog dare - The Upgrade Company to submit one of their modded units for a proper double-blind test conducted by a neutral third party. It'll never happen.

Jeff

edit: Sorry, SB, that's what happened.
post #476 of 1596
This should get interesting...subscribed
post #477 of 1596
Thanks for taking the time to do the comparison and give us your thoughts.
post #478 of 1596
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by saeyedoc View Post

This should get interesting...subscribed

Get the popcorn.
post #479 of 1596
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjaudio View Post

Thanks for taking the time to do the comparison and give us your thoughts.

It was a very interesting experience, and a bit humbling as well to discover that I could be so susceptible to suggestion. And that is exactly what potential customers of these modded units should keep in "mind."

Jeff
post #480 of 1596
Jeff,

The night before the test, when we set up Dennis' 885 with your 5508, we noticed there were some level differences between the 2 units, especially in the MC section. IIRC, we had a 4.5 to 5.5 dB offset between them when we played SACD's and DVD-A's. Did you notice any of those kinds of differences between the levels of the modded and un-modded 5508's? Did you need to make any offsets of level settings between the 2 units, or were the levels, trims and MCV always the same?'

Craig
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