How do I verify - or debunk - the claims of The Upgrade Company? - Page 23

David Schulte has been doing upgrades on my equipment for over ten years, and I have never been less than happy with his work, or his ethics. Admittedly, he is an eccentric, and keeps his methods close to the vest, but this is due to much of what he does is proprietary in nature.

I heard it asked on this forum, "why would anyone spend good money for upgrades?" The answer is simple: Better equipment costs much more to purchase, new or used. I've been using a Marantz DV 8300 for 9 years on a daily basis, and the transport finally died a few weeks ago. It was, of course, upgraded by David. I was going to try to reach a bit higher this time, I was going to try to find a good used Esoteric. David mentioned his favorite player to upgrade is the McIntosh MVP 871. I found one reasonably priced on Audiogon, and had David do a Signature Upgrade on it. The result is the best Redbook playback I have ever heard anywhere. Hi-Res formats are right up there, too.

I am a hard-nosed blue collar audiophile. I can tell you, if what David does was not cost-effective, I would not bother spending the money.

I am pretty shocked by the feeding frenzy going on here on this forum. I believe most that are involved have had no dealings with David, and just enjoy kicking a man when he's down. If you truly have a beef with The Upgrade Company, take it up with David, don't gnaw on him in a public forum. I think it's rather cowardly, myself.

Dan Thomason

Wasnt David here before?

pokekevin -

Yes, in the other giant dust-up of a thread a couple years or so ago (or maybe it was this one). And this certainly hasn't been the only forum in which TUC has been vigorously challenged. (Not so) curiously enough, a few people suddenly popped up on the forum from out of nowhere to post their defenses back then too. Some of whom had Sybil-like identities, if you catch my drift.

Charles, that's a great post, I love it! Definately food for thought, there...

I bet the A/B/X test would fail.
But it would be interesting to see if blinded A/B instant switching between them might produce a statistically positive result...

You know Jeff, even using the switching box and throwing out the X aspect of the testing (which we collectively did poorly at and I believe is not representative) and look just at the preferences of the 3 listeners we have a somewhat different story than you are suggesting. Your conclusions and statements regarding science proving that there is no difference in sound are just not supported or at least are suspect. We have insufficient data, but there is a trend.

Below is a break down of the AB listening for all 3 particiapants:

Jeff 2 channel 5/6 preferred the stock unit and for multichannel 3/5 preferred the stock unit.

Dennis 2 channel 5/6 preferred the upgraded unit and for multichannel 2/5 preferred the upgraded unit.

Rich 2 channel 4/6 preferred the upgraded unit and for multichannel 3/5 preferred the upgraded unit.

So regardless of the fact that Jeff has claimed that he had a preference for listening to the upgraded unit in the "sighted" tests, Jeff preferred the stock unit in 83% of the time in the AB testing for stereo and 60% of the time for AB testing for multichannel for a total of almost 73% overall.

Dennis had a preference for the upgraded unit in stereo 83% of the time for the AB testing and 40% of the time for AB testing multichannel for a total of almost 64% of the time.

Rich had a preference for the upgraded unit in stereo about 67% of the time for AB testing and 60% of the time for AB testing for multichannel for a total of almost 64% of the time.

Multichannel playback was more of a problem than stereo.

Jeff appears to have found a different preference to the players in the AB listening sessions for the stock unit and must have been looking for something different than Dennis and Rich. Dennis and Rich had similar overall results and had a preference for the upgraded Onkyo 5508.

So apparently Dennis and Rich recognized something that lead to their preference that was lacking for Jeff.

Again, we do not have sufficient data, but there is a preference as noted with Jeff on one side and Dennis and Rich on the other.

Rich

Enough said

Jeff,

No cut and paste. It took some time to assemble this and I may not have proof read it adequately before I posted it.

Rich

I do not agree that an X is necessary for testing. Preferences for one over the other with sufficient statistical data would support that the units sound different.

Rich

I haven't decided one way or the other.


With the exception of the introductory portion, I speak of all 3 listeners in the 3rd person.

Rich

Dan,

Welcome to AVS. I do not think anyone is kicking DS when he is down, sitting or standing. If you have a chance read through this long since closed thread discussing TUC. In that thread you will see posts from MrHiEndAudio aka DS. You will see by reading his posts why many here on AVS are not buying into the TUC hype.

In that thread you will see many first time AVS posters (as youself) singing the praises of TUC's mods. It seems odd that you just joined AVS and your first post is one singing the praises of TUC. You are also calling those in this thread questioning TUC "cowardly". Not a good way to make a first impression or to further the validity of TUC IMO. By the way did DS ask you to join AVS and post in this thread? What purpose would it accomplish to contact DS directly to question his mods? Maybe he would prefer that so members of AVS will not be questioning his mods and their claimed SQ improvements.

Out of curiousity did you spend any time listening to the MVP 871 before you sent it to TUC for the Signature Upgrade?

Bill

Jeff,

That would be very interesting if DS could or would provide factual credible information showing the switch will degrade SQ of any component not just his "modded" gear. But I doubt you will ever see any such information from DS.

Bill

Great thread. Subscribed.

True, good to have a positive outlook.

Bill

Nope. He won't get his hands on it.

Kal,

You never know a little tinfoil and blue goop might remove the veil from the switch.

Bill

I think he has faith in the mods, it is sort of like an Audio religion to those who want to believe, there is no changing there mind.

At this point there really doesn't seem to be any reason to continue any more listening tests. Those that believe still will, and those that don't have already heard enough evidence to convince them.

Skeptics would have already purchased a second un-modded unit so they can see if they can in fact hear a difference. So far all the respondents of TUC mods have not done such a comparison for them-selves, unless I missed it. Some have listened before sending off the said item for the mod but there is no way there aural memory is good enough for a comparison. They all believe there is a difference and if that is good enough for them then more power to them.

TUC has an interesting business model, he can convince people there is a difference without direct a/b comparisons. DS is the modern day P.T. Barnum of audio since his disciples are very loyal.

Jeff,

The percentage of preference for the AB testing is just what you indicated that you indicated that you preferred (it has absolutely no relationship with how many that you got correct for the X portion of the testing which was coincidentally correct 83% of the time) the sound of the stock unit 83% of the time when comparing the stock and the upgraded unit. Dennis indicated a preference for the upgraded unit for the same stereo test of 83% of the time and I indicated a preference for the the upgraded unit 67% percent of the time for stereo. The results are what was reported for all three of us as we reported them specifically for what was reported as preference. It has nothing to do with letting the modded unit "off the hook", it is just the data as it was recorded by for our AB listening tests.

Rich

I had previously mentioned that I compared my stock Pioneer BDP-05FD with my Arcam DV27A for DVD's. The Arcam was much better - both sound and video. When my upgraded Pioneer came back, there were definite improvements, but the comparison still favored the Arcam. After about a week of running the Pioneer 24X7, I compared again, and I found that the Pioneer finally caught up with the Arcam for both sound and video. In fact, the picture from the Pioneer was now a bit sharper than the Arcam. I was very happy to have a blu ray player that could provide similar (or better) performance than my Arcam, especially because Arcam did not have a blu ray player at the time.

Of course, my tests were subjective, and while I did A/B testing, it was not blind testing. I know that will not satisfy most here, but it was good enough for me.

I understand the reason for the switch in the tests that were conducted, and I think it was very nice of Kal to provide that switch. For me though, if I were to compare stock vs upgraded, I'd want to do it without a switch, because that's how I'm going to use it in my home. I know most here will differ with me, but that would be my preference.

Dave

Regardless of what you may think, both Dennis and I noted the same differences in the sound between the stock and upgraded unit with both of us noting a preference for the upgraded unit. So unless you think that we were discussing and having the same delusion.. I do not believe that this is imagined. We may not have been able to substantiate this in the ABX testing (particularly with sufficient statistical data) but this does not mean that both units sound the same and that one may or does sound better than the other.

Rich

Your comparison was not the same as I had mentioned, 1 modded Pioneer BDP-05FD vs the same unit stock. Maybe the reason why we have not had defenders of TUC's mention this comparison is that the people who have are no longer TUC supporters?

TUC sells the upgraded 5508 for double what any savvy shopper could get it for brand new. For those TUC customers who feel the upgrade is worth it then more power to you. Personally if I got something modded by TUC I would buy the same unit stock so I could make sure it was worth it before spending 1 more penny with him. His mods are not cheap so spending that extra money for some peace of mind seams reasonable to me. The fact that everyone who responded as TUC supporters has NOT done that makes me go hmmmm.

I have done plenty of comparisons with friends before and I know for a fact that personal preference plays a part in what I like. I tend to favor the better looking components as most of the comparisons were done in my home, these were of course sighted comparisons

It's not imagined that you heard the differences sighted but admit that you could not substantiate this in a blind test.....hmmmmm. I can admit that personal preference will sway my beliefs, can you?

Don't get me wrong, I have pride as well and if I had just spent double what someone else spent my judgement would favor my choice. For me to spend that kind of money again, there would have to be no doubt about the improvements, but that's just me.