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How do I verify - or debunk - the claims of The Upgrade Company? - Page 4

post #91 of 1596
Has anyone tried contacting Onkyo/Integra to ask them the difference between the hardware, I know it's a longshot especially with Onkyo's quirky customer support but you never know we could get an official "they are identical hardware" response.
post #92 of 1596
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OmegaR3D View Post
Has anyone tried contacting Onkyo/Integra to ask them the difference between the hardware, I know it's a longshot especially with Onkyo's quirky customer support but you never know we could get an official "they are identical hardware" response.
Other than the respective website descriptions - which are identical as are the specs - I doubt that there is anything that Onkyo and/or Integra would "officially" tell us. Up the thread are some pics and they are identical.

Anyway, we all know that they are identical; I was only hoping to get a response from The Upgrade Company or stimulate a lively conversation in the effort. I loath liars and the owner of TUC is one on this issue.

Jeff
post #93 of 1596
This is a simple issue and not even sure why so much time is being spent on this. If they are misleading or lying, just contact Onkyo/Integra (same company). I am sure if it is false, they will just sick the lawyers on them.
post #94 of 1596
Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post
Why not though?? Your conclusions are also unscientific and most likely have a good amount of exaggeration if you never did any level matching and proper controlled litening to compare the two products. Imagination is the biggest uncontrolled variable you guys have going for you. That isnt a bad thing at all but it counter productive in any discussion online about the real difference in any product. I get that "man, that is awesome" stuff. I buy products all the time and get that warm fuzzy feeling but I also understand its really just a function of my brain and the real scientific differences are probably non-existant.
Why is it when ever a person ,even one who has bought many different units & enjoyed audio for many years all ways gets dissed here on AVS when they say what Jeff said about the differences in what he had heard between his older Onkyo to his newer one ? Why is his description counter productive ? Are we all imagining a improvement in the purchase of new gear ? Other words I can't give a honest conclusion between product A over product B without getting a " rent-a-scientist" to prepare a detailed report with charts & grafts & only then would my conclusions be accepted ?
So then , My 35+ years of buying & comparing audio equipment renders my conclusions about what is a better product as utterly useless unless I have charts & graphs ?
Please don't throw out that line "that this is THE AV Science Forum" . I have heard that used many times before here @ AVS as a catch line to discredit many posters valid opinions . I myself really would want to hear an informed opinion like what Jeff has offered & I feel that others here @ AVS would find Jeff's conclusion as a useful valid comparison also.
post #95 of 1596
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eldiablos View Post

This is a simple issue and not even sure why so much time is being spent on this.

Heeeeyyyy, that's what we do here!

Jeff
post #96 of 1596
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fastslappy View Post

Are we all imagining a improvement in the purchase of new gear ?

It's a well known fact that the mind perceives differences that are not objectively real:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfPAjUvvnIc

I have little doubt you'd be one of the people who would perceive a superior taste from one of the "gourmet" waters over tap water, and would deride the "charts and graphs" from the NRDC.
post #97 of 1596
Thread Starter 
Are you saying that we are all wet?
post #98 of 1596
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Are you saying that we are all wet?

More like some audiophiles are engaged in an endless search for the audio equivalent of the Fountain of Youth.
post #99 of 1596
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertR View Post

It's a well known fact that the mind perceives differences that are not objectively real:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfPAjUvvnIc

I have little doubt you'd be one of the people who would perceive a superior taste from one of the "gourmet" waters over tap water, and would deride the "charts and graphs" from the NRDC.

+1

In reading though this thread there is so much "subjective" information that is stated as fact

I for one..have the 885
I have never thought from one thought it was anywhere close to the best I have heard
Is it good..yes...is it anywhere near the best I have heard..no
But the pricing on those other pieces far exceeded the 885

It seems that many think higher of these units than I do
All subjective

A few points of humor
1.There was a comparo of these new Onkyo/Integra units to an Anthem in one of the posts here

Seriously?......NO..LOL

2. The misstated fact about the 5508 being truly balanced

Its not

To my knowledge there is nothing under $6K in a pre/pro that is "truly" balanced
and certainly no pre/pro made by Onkyo is

Warren
post #100 of 1596
^^^^^^

Warren,

I really don't understand your post above. You said you read through the thread but did you read the first post? Jeff is just trying to find out if the 80.2 is indeed different from the 5508 as claimed by TUC.

Then you go on to dismiss others subjective listening impressions but throw your own in by saying:

I for one..have the 885
I have never thought from one thought it was anywhere close to the best I have heard
Is it good..yes...is it anywhere near the best I have heard..no


Then you bring up:

A few points of humor
1.There was a comparo of these new Onkyo/Integra units to an Anthem in one of the posts here

Seriously?......NO..LOL


and:

2. The misstated fact about the 5508 being truly balanced

Its not

To my knowledge there is nothing under $6K in a pre/pro that is "truly" balanced
and certainly no pre/pro made by Onkyo is


Who ever said this was a comparison thread to anything other than TUC's claim of the 5508 being better than the 80.2? It was also TUC who made the statement that the 5508 was truly balanced.

Maybe you should re-read the thread as your post is all over the place.
post #101 of 1596
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post


A few points of humor
1.There was a comparo of these new Onkyo/Integra units to an Anthem in one of the posts here

Seriously?......NO..LOL

Why is that funny? Have you done a comparison, blind or sighted? Or are you, like some that you are poking at, being influenced by what you have read or heard other people say? Is there no way the 5508 can be as good as an Anthem? Which Anthem .. they have at least two different quality "levels" .. ?

Just asking ....

Jeff
post #102 of 1596
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertR View Post

I have little doubt you'd be one of the people who would perceive a superior taste from one of the "gourmet" waters over tap water, and would deride the "charts and graphs" from the NRDC.

Your attacking me about my sense of taste now also ? You have come to that conclusion just from me wanting to hear about an opinion that Jeff could tell differences between a Onkyo 885 Vs a Onkyo 5508 might be ?
So your saying that Jeff & I could not tell a difference from a New York Strip steak eaten @ Sizzler Steak House from the same cut New York Strip steak eaten @ a Ruth Chris's Steak House??
Soo I can't the differences between 120 grit sand paper from 80 grit sand paper just from the feel of both with out qualification with hard data?
post #103 of 1596
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fastslappy View Post

Your attacking me about my sense of taste now also ? You have come to that conclusion just from me wanting to hear about an opinion that Jeff could tell differences between a Onkyo 885 Vs a Onkyo 5508 might be ?
So your saying that Jeff & I could not tell a difference from a New York Strip steak eaten @ Sizzler Steak House from the same cut New York Strip steak eaten @ a Ruth Chris's Steak House??
Soo I can't the differences between 120 grit sand paper from 80 grit sand paper just from the feel of both with out qualification with hard data?

You completely missed the point. I'm saying that you as well as everyone else are subject to perceiving things that aren't objectively real. The Penn and Teller video is a perfect example. Those people tasted differences, yet it was a fact that the water wasn't objectively different.
Your example of the 120 grit vs 80 grit sandpaper doesn't apply, because they are in fact objectively different. As for your steak example, if you tasted two pieces from the identical steak, it's highly likely that you would pick the piece you were told came from Ruth Chris as tasting "better" than the piece you were told came from Sizzler. As I said, the mind is capable of perceiving differences where none exist.
post #104 of 1596
Thread Starter 
Just because people can be fooled into thinking ... PERCEIVING ... a difference between two bottles of the SAME water doesn't mean that all water tastes the same, much less that all audio gear sounds the same.

When I got my 5508 set up I listened to my most familiar music. And I heard detail that I never heard before. Underneath louder passages, I heard small details never noticed before - the drummer/percussionist doing some very dainty snare work for example. I am not imagining these things. When I say my 5508 sounds a lot better than my 885, I have specific reasons.

Jeff
post #105 of 1596
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Just because people can be fooled into thinking ... PERCEIVING ... a difference between two bottles of the SAME water doesn't mean that all water tastes the same, much less that all audio gear sounds the same.

No, but once you acknowledge that the mind can perceive differences where none exist, you have to acknowledge the necessity of ensuring that the factors that cause the mind to perceive differences where none objectively exist are removed. Otherwise, you cannot state with ANY confidence that what you perceived isn't simply in your mind.
post #106 of 1596
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertR View Post

No, but once you acknowledge that the mind can perceive differences where none exist, you have to acknowledge the necessity of ensuring that the factors that cause the mind to perceive differences where none objectively exist are removed. Otherwise, you cannot state with ANY confidence that what you perceived isn't simply in your mind.

Nah, I really don't. I trust my ears in this case. You don't have to, though, and apparently don't trust my ears. But that's OK because my increased enjoyment of my system does not hinge on you ... or anyone else ... believing that it sounds better. I will toss in here that the three other local HT enthusiasts who are familiar with my system think it sounds better, and one of them also upgraded from the 885/9.8 to the 5508/80.2 and *his* system has the same increased inner detail I hear in mine.

I don't know that it'll make any difference to you, but I don't own any fancy interconnects ...

Jeff
post #107 of 1596
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertR View Post

You completely missed the point. I'm saying that you as well as everyone else are subject to perceiving things that aren't objectively real. The Penn and Teller video is a perfect example. Those people tasted differences, yet it was a fact that the water wasn't objectively different.
Your example of the 120 grit vs 80 grit sandpaper doesn't apply, because they are in fact objectively different. As for your steak example, if you tasted two pieces from the identical steak, it's highly likely that you would pick the piece you were told came from Ruth Chris as tasting "better" than the piece you were told came from Sizzler. As I said, the mind is capable of perceiving differences where none exist.

No you missed the point . Yes I could tell the difference between same exact cut from the same exact steer because of the 2 very different methods that the Steak Houses use to cook the same steak.
As for sand paper example , how can 2 different models not be objectively different ? one 7 channels the other 9 . one has 24 bit DACS & the other has 32 bit DACS .one has Audyssey XT32 the other does not .The list goes on ..
post #108 of 1596
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Nah, I really don't. I trust my ears in this case. You don't have to, though, and apparently don't trust my ears. But that's OK because my increased enjoyment of my system does not hinge on you ... or anyone else ... believing that it sounds better.

If all you state is that you subjectively perceive a difference, I have no problem with that. What I have a problem with are the people who state such differences are an objective fact. BTW, I'm glad you don't fall for the interconnect nonsense.
post #109 of 1596
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fastslappy View Post

Yes I could tell the difference between same exact cut from the same exact steer because of the 2 very different methods that the Steak Houses use to cook the same steak.

Your ability to miss the point is amazing. If it was two pieces cut from the same steak cooked by the same person at the same steakhouse, in other words if the ONLY difference is that you were told the two pieces were from a different steak house, I think you'd perceive differences.


Quote:


one 7 channels the other 9 . one has 24 bit DACS & the other has 32 bit DACS .one has Audyssey XT32 the other does not .The list goes on ..

I have no idea where you got the idea that I said there are no objective differences between 7 and 9 channels, or between room correction and no room correction. FYI, I have an Anthem AVM50V with ARC.
post #110 of 1596
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertR View Post

Your ability to miss the point is amazing. If it was two pieces cut from the same steak cooked by the same person at the same steakhouse, in other words if the ONLY difference is that you were told the two pieces were from a different steak house, I think you'd perceive differences.

there you go making an assumption. No, I would not perceive differences ! as a well versed steak griller from my teens to the present I would tell you that you were trying to fooling me as both steaks were the same.
it's Odd that you'd use a couple of well know slight of hand experts & magicians as a valid scientific comparison
Anyone see the irony there ?
post #111 of 1596
All I'm thinking about is a nice juicy medium rare steak.
post #112 of 1596
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertR View Post

If all you state is that you subjectively perceive a difference, I have no problem with that. What I have a problem with are the people who state such differences are an objective fact.

When was the last time you saw someone post an opinion prefaced with anything about it being subjective and listing the things that might have influenced their perception? Don't we all state things like they are facts?

Jeff
post #113 of 1596
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertR View Post

Your ability to miss the point is amazing. If it was two pieces cut from the same steak cooked by the same person at the same steakhouse, in other words if the ONLY difference is that you were told the two pieces were from a different steak house, I think you'd perceive differences.


I have no idea where you got the idea that I said there are no objective differences between 7 and 9 channels, or between room correction and no room correction. FYI, I have an Anthem AVM50V with ARC.

See, that's your problem right there Flame on!
post #114 of 1596
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

All I'm thinking about is a nice juicy medium rare steak.

Me too, I am hungry
post #115 of 1596
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjaudio View Post

See, that's your problem right there Flame on!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mjaudio View Post

Me too, I am hungry

Flame steaks! Not members!
post #116 of 1596
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Flame steaks! Not members!

I was just trying to lighten the mood before the countdown to shut down begun.
post #117 of 1596
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

When was the last time you saw someone post an opinion prefaced with anything about it being subjective

I've seen that qualification made many times.
post #118 of 1596
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

All I'm thinking about is a nice juicy medium rare steak.

I'll join you.
post #119 of 1596
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

When was the last time you saw someone post an opinion prefaced with anything about it being subjective and listing the things that might have influenced their perception? Don't we all state things like they are facts?

That a particular behavior is prevalent does not condone it.

AJ
post #120 of 1596
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

I recently upgraded from an 885 to a 5508 and I must say that the performance far exceeds the 885. I have not measured it, nor do I know how I would have. So, let's not dismiss a member's observations as being unscientific and hyperbole because there are no charts and graphs.Jeff

RobertR where in this post does Jeff state a fact ? plz point that part out to us ?
the "I must say " phrase sounds like a opinion to myself & he goes on to state that it's an observation as well , his observation...
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