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Have Panny's 720p plasmas gone down hill in pq?

post #1 of 19
5/23/11 at 11:06am
Thread Starter 
I went with a friend of mine shopping for tvs yesterday. He was looking for a tv for his bedroom and he is not very picky. Before we left the house I convinced him the best bang for the buck is a 42" panny plasma. I have a px600u in my bedroom and I am still very happy with it.

When we saw the 720p Panny at Best Buy and Bjs they both looked horrible compared to the other tvs. I tried to adjust them at both stores but I could not get them to produce a dark black. The best I could get was a dark gray. I tried every preset (cinema, standard, vivid, etc) as well as adjusted the black level in each preset. No matter what I did the blacks remained as a dark gray. It was extremely obvious compared to the black of the frame. Every single other tv produced significantly better blacks and that includes other plasmas and lcds.

I have always been a fan of Panasonic plasma and I was extremely disappointed with the 720p sets I saw yesterday. Needless to say my friend ended up getting a Samsung LCD instead.

What has happened to the PQ of the latest panny 720p plasmas???

I am not trying to bash Panasonic. I was just shocked at what I saw yesterday.
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post #2 of 19
5/23/11 at 12:44pm
I've sold very few of the new 2011 x3s because it looks like it's 720p. PQ is worse than what the c3 looked like last year, much more jaggies and much lower black levels. But mine is just an uninformed opinion.
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post #3 of 19
5/23/11 at 1:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWestTexas View Post

I've sold very few of the new 2011 x3s because it looks like it's 720p. PQ is worse than what the c3 looked like last year, much more jaggies and much lower black levels. But mine is just an uninformed opinion.

I assume you meant C2? I was at Cosco recently and compared a 50'' X3 which was 2 sets from a 50'' GT25. I reset both TV's in the set up menu, and then set both of them in the custom mode. A store employee walked by and didn't even ask me what I was doing. It took a little finesse, and I've done a lot of calibration work on my 46" C2, so I was able to get them very close to my surprise mind you. The biggest difference I found between the two was that the X3 looked less smooth and there was noticeable SDE even at 10ft or so from the screen. There was little SDE on the GT25 even up close. Black level performance seemed pretty good on the X3 but obviously not quite up to par with the GT25. I admit that the larger 50'' X3 set wasn't quite up to par with my smaller well tuned 46'' C2, (which never looks gray in my room) but with the proper calibration and lighting, it can look pretty good too.


Ian
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post #4 of 19
5/23/11 at 2:43pm
Manufacturers in general don't put a lot of effort into 720p sets anymore because there's not a big market for high-end 720p sets. They're almost exclusively cheapo sets now. SDE is more because of being low quality panels. They're designed to be junkers. If you look at older premium 720p sets they're considerably higher quality. Little to no SDE etc... etc... SDE means that the screen is course and cheap which is why you're seeing the ribs between cells. You don't see that on higher end sets.
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post #5 of 19
5/23/11 at 2:45pm
IMO, the Panny 720p sets (this year exclusively) look significantly worse than the Samsung 720p sets*.

*my impression of the Panny TVs are based exclusively on in-store viewing.
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post #6 of 19
5/23/11 at 4:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dlplover View Post

Manufacturers in general don't put a lot of effort into 720p sets anymore because there's not a big market for high-end 720p sets. They're almost exclusively cheapo sets now. SDE is more because of being low quality panels. They're designed to be junkers. If you look at older premium 720p sets they're considerably higher quality. Little to no SDE etc... etc... SDE means that the screen is course and cheap which is why you're seeing the ribs between cells. You don't see that on higher end sets.


I wouldn't call a set a junker just because it is 720p. However, if you're going to purchase a 50'' or larger set I recommend a 1080p. Consumer Reports tested all the most popular plasma TV's and they all received a very good to excellent rating for picture quality, albeit, most of the lower end sets were under 50 inches and 2010 models.

Ian
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post #7 of 19
5/23/11 at 4:51pm
Between AVS and High Def Junkies it seems like there are more complaints about the 2011 plasmas then there are compliments. Makes me wonder if I should return my 42X3 and switch to LCD.
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post #8 of 19
5/23/11 at 5:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by lotusson View Post

Between AVS and High Def Junkies it seems like there are more complaints about the 2011 plasmas then there are compliments. Makes me wonder if I should return my 42X3 and switch to LCD.

You'll find even more complaints on avs and HDJ plasma forums about LCD than you will about plasma

LCD are definitely not w/o their own issues.
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post #9 of 19
5/23/11 at 9:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by lotusson View Post

Between AVS and High Def Junkies it seems like there are more complaints about the 2011 plasmas then there are compliments. Makes me wonder if I should return my 42X3 and switch to LCD.

I've also seen the 42'' X3 and it certainly holds its own when it comes down to good picture quality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dlplover View Post

You'll find even more complaints on avs and HDJ plasma forums about LCD than you will about plasma

LCD are definitely not w/o their own issues.


I agree.


Ian
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post #10 of 19
5/23/11 at 9:25pm
Certainly one of the things that Pan did was to reduce the resolution on the 50" "720p" sets to only 1024 x 768, whereas earlier models provided 1366 x 768 - which at least some (? all) of the 50" 720p Samsungs still provide.

We were also very disappointed in the 2010 Pan 720p sets, and began recommending Samsungs (in spite of their reflective screen).

Think the comment about price point is likely on target: these have become loss-leaders, and the differential of other PQ factors - beyond simple resolution - has widened between 720 & 1080 sets.
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post #11 of 19
5/24/11 at 5:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dierkdr View Post

Certainly one of the things that Pan did was to reduce the resolution on the 50" "720p" sets to only 1024 x 768, whereas earlier models provided 1366 x 768 - which at least some (? all) of the 50" 720p Samsungs still provide.

We were also very disappointed in the 2010 Pan 720p sets, and began recommending Samsungs (in spite of their reflective screen).

Think the comment about price point is likely on target: these have become loss-leaders, and the differential of other PQ factors - beyond simple resolution - has widened between 720 & 1080 sets.

BINGO!! Parts quality has really dipped on the 720p sets, this is what hurts PQ, not resolution. It's also affecting reliability, these sets seem to be breaking down more. The resolution doesn't make much difference at normal viewing distances and most people don't turn on the 1:1 pixel mapping on 1080p sets anyways. Without 1:1 pixel mapping turned on a 1080p set isn't much better than 720p based on resolution alone.

Right now LG is my favorite 720p plasma, they haven't cheaped out yet.
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post #12 of 19
5/24/11 at 4:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Servicetech571 View Post

BINGO!! Parts quality has really dipped on the 720p sets, this is what hurts PQ, not resolution. It's also affecting reliability, these sets seem to be breaking down more. The resolution doesn't make much difference at normal viewing distances and most people don't turn on the 1:1 pixel mapping on 1080p sets anyways. Without 1:1 pixel mapping turned on a 1080p set isn't much better than 720p based on resolution alone.

Right now LG is my favorite 720p plasma, they haven't cheaped out yet.


Then explain to me why the new higher end Panny neo pdp's have had so many issues like rising black levels, then floating blacks and now on the 2011 models, fluctuating brightness, which by the way seems to also effect some of the better Samsung sets? If there's one thing I have learned working in this business, if you keep adding more features with the benefit of price cuts, the quality of the whole line suffers, not just the entry level stuff.


Ian
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post #13 of 19
5/24/11 at 4:54pm
The 600u was a excellent set from Panasonic. Extremely natural looking.
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post #14 of 19
5/24/11 at 5:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mailiang View Post


Then explain to me why the new higher end Panny neo pdp's have had so many issues like rising black levels, then floating blacks and now on the 2011 models, fluctuating brightness, which by the way seems to also effect some of the better Samsung sets? If there's one thing I have learned working in this business, if you keep adding more features with the benefit of price cuts, the quality of the whole line suffers, not just the entry level stuff.

Ian

+1 frankly I think it is panny rather than 720p sets as a whole.
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post #15 of 19
5/24/11 at 6:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mailiang View Post

Then explain to me why the new higher end Panny neo pdp's have had so many issues like rising black levels, then floating blacks and now on the 2011 models, fluctuating brightness, which by the way seems to also effect some of the better Samsung sets? If there's one thing I have learned working in this business, if you keep adding more features with the benefit of price cuts, the quality of the whole line suffers, not just the entry level stuff.


Ian

These issues only exist on AV forums, we never get repair calls for these issues. They issues are there but few nobody notices them until it's pointed out to them. Low warranty claims = we'll get around to fixing it someday, keep the price point low for the other 98% of the customers...

Back when HDTV's were "videophile" products costing a small fortune manufacturers paid more attention to details.
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post #16 of 19
5/24/11 at 6:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by redwolf4k View Post

The 600u was a excellent set from Panasonic. Extremely natural looking.

Yup, loved mine, then the purple snakes ate it
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post #17 of 19
5/24/11 at 6:47pm
Why would anyone want to buy a 720P plasma?
Next thing you know he/she will want to buy a blu-ray player, but will regret for not buying a 1080P plasma in the first place.
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post #18 of 19
5/24/11 at 8:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph1 View Post

Why would anyone want to buy a 720P plasma?
Next thing you know he/she will want to buy a blu-ray player, but will regret for not buying a 1080P plasma in the first place.

The 720p isn't that much of an issue, it's the panel quality that is killing these sets. Few people even know what 1:1 pixel mapping is much less use it. In MUST be enabled for a 1080p TV to produce all 1080 lines given to it by the source. If the signal is scaled in any way your 1080p feature is disabled. It's easy to observe this the with a PC input or a test pattern.
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post #19 of 19
5/24/11 at 8:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph1 View Post

Why would anyone want to buy a 720P plasma?
Next thing you know he/she will want to buy a blu-ray player, but will regret for not buying a 1080P plasma in the first place.


http://reviews.cnet.com/hdtv-resolut...oreResources.1




Quote:
Originally Posted by Servicetech571 View Post

These issues only exist on AV forums

Like all the bashing that 720p sets get?


Quote:


we never get repair calls for these issues.


That's because they can't be fix.



Quote:


They issues are there but few nobody notices them until it's pointed out to them. Low warranty claims = we'll get around to fixing it someday, keep the price point low for the other 98% of the customers...

Back when HDTV's were "videophile" products costing a small fortune manufacturers paid more attention to details.


I'll give you a call when my 720p plasma craps out.


Cheers!


Ian
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