A call to all JVC users wishing to use the VIP 3D Theatre device - Page 2

If they are display it at 24fps does it have flicker?

60 hz switch is a non issue. Your telling me you have absolutely no issues with the HD70 image drift over time or ghosting. need to constantly readjust rf glasses. I have been going back through the threads and there are plenty of 60 hz problems posted. Where you get 90 % of 60 hz users having no issue from I don't know. I've gone back through 24 pages of the theater thread and it looks like 90 % of people are having 60% problems. I have 3 60hz pj's I tested so far and all have sync issues with the 24 to 60 hz up conversion from the displayer.
My H5360 is the only one that works properly.

I have no issues with image drift or ghosting whatsoever.

I watched Legend of the Guardians straight through last night; it looked perfect. i watched most of Avatar the night before, same thing, no complaints. The only thing differentiating my display from a dedicated consumer-level 120hz display is the degree of flicker, but this has been discussed already as inherent to the 60hz tech.

What you describe as "60% problems" I think are people figuring out what works for them in terms of fine-tuning the rf glasses. There's a bit of a learning curve with any gear that allows for adjustment. But honestly, I see as many complaints of ghosting issues in other threads from people with factory set 3d-ready displays... and I would much rather have the abiliity to tune those issues out, learning curve or no!

I read your thread on the HD70. You had the same problems I had with the IR glasses. Things are improved with the RF glasses but still the sync issues remain.
Fortunately I have the acer h5360 as a reference(incidently no problem with the ir glasses). I have viewed movies at 60 and 120 hz and there is no comparison to the image quality and 3D at 120 Hz. At times the RF glasses can be tweaked to get good 3D from the 60 Hz displays but ghosting and image inversion persist over time due to the sync issue at 60 hz due to the 24 hz upconversion. There are so many 60Hz pj's and direct view displays having problems that to put the problem at the foot of all these displays and possibly not make the vip products suspect at 60hz would be self defeating.

Why don't you link to my thread so I can see what you're talking about... perhaps you misunderstood a post of mine. I have no drift, no inversion over time. I experienced some ghosting with the IR glasses; with thr RF I was able to tune this out.

I don't doubt that 120hz exhibits greater image quality than 60; the refresh is greater. But that's different entirely than not maintaining sync, which is what this thread is about.

Again, with the RF system fine-tuned, I get no ghosting, no image drift.

Unless you have a 3D 120 hz projector you don't have a good reference as to the quality of the 3D image to compare 60 Hz operation. You stated the IR glasses presented a problem which is a sign that sync issues are most likely there. You may be lucky in that the HD70 viewing could be adjusted
with the RF glasses and be stable. I thought the same for 2 of my 60 Hz projectors but after some time I started noticing problems surfacing with ghosting and image inversion in all except one I will test tonight. VIP needs to publish a list of PJ's their products work with.
They are advertised as being compatible with 60 Hz operation than they really are due to this up conversion from 24 hx to 60 hz. The fact that 60 hz viewing requires RF glasses to make adjustments is a sign this problem exists.
As I stated previously the IR glasses work with 120 Hz viewing with only a problem with loss of signal and a polarity correction sometimes being needed.

Ghosting on a 3d display is not necessarily related to active shutter glasses being out of sync. It can be related to display technology (lcd vs. dlp vs. plasma), the length of time the shutters on a particular model glasses are open, etc.

Here is the link to my initial impressions of the rf tranceiver & glasses:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post20390588

And here are a couple of pertinent quotes from that post:

At no point do I imply that the image drifts in & out of sync, or that polarity reverses as viewing time elapses. I have not had these problems.

Here is what I have experienced in the few instances polarity has been reversed on my system:

- I start watching a disc. I stop half way through & shut the system down. When I fire my blu-ray player up again the next day, the "resume play" feature kicks in, and the polarity is reversed. I reload the disc, and it is corrected. For the rest of the film. No problems, no drifting. If I start a disc from the beginning and play it through, it stays correct throughout.

Here is what I beleive plissken99 is experiencing:

- He starts watching a disc. As he is watching, the ghosting increases, until the doubling is very noticeable. Eventually, the drift has gotten to the point where the polarity is completely reversed and he has to flip the glasses over in order to view correctly.

I have seen plenty of 120hz 3d-ready displays, so I feel I have an adequate point of reference. My 60hz setup is comparable except for the flicker. If the tranceiver/emitter adjustments are only needed on 60hz systems, what exactly is Bit Cauldron's target market for these glasses? These are the same glasses licensed to Monster, and the fact that they are 120hz-compatible speaks to the fact that ghosting is an issue with some 3d-ready displays as well.

If your H5360 works fine then there is nothing wrong with the Displayer even at 60Hz. The Displayer just throws away half the frames set to 60Hz. Not all projectors will work and I agree VIP should be telling people what works and what doesn't. The JVC's are the example that not all displays work. I have two flat panel TV's that don't work either. I wish there was a projector 3D ready that would throw a 120 diagonal image from 23 feet. I would buy it.

Here s another RS20 user.

Just e-mailed JVC.

I don't see how you can draw a conclusion from it working with a 120 hz 3D projector that there is nothing wrong with displayer/theater up conversion from 24 hz to 60 hz. I have 4 different 60 hz projectors now that drift and need constant readjustment during viewing(2 DLP and 2 LCD). These were marketed based on 60 and 120 hz use.
This is proving in most cases that I've seen to be false yours included. I would like to see this lists of 500 working projectors

My point is the VIP product is syncing to the video but your projector is drifting because its running off its own timing. If the VIP product was drifting 120hz would drift to.

Plenty of bluray players do 24p to 60p conversion. The VIP product uses the same conversion for 120 and 60Hz. 60Hz is just half the refresh rate. That's all.

It is your projector drifting. Check with the manufacturers I bet they are not frame locked.

I am happy you posted this because VIP needs to realize a lot of 60Hz displays don't frame lock.

What models do you own?

Ron

I own 2 LCD a Hitachi PJ-TX100 and Epson EX70 and 2 DLP a Optoma HD7100
and a Sharp XV-Z12000mkII also the Acer H5360. The interesting part is that
the Sharp has a sync feature in the menu setting but playing with it didn't help.

Two of those PJs use DVI inputs rather than HDMI; don't know if that might affect frame lock... Also, the sync feature on these older units (my HD70 included) often only applies to the computer (RGB/vga) input.

The JVC's display 24p at 96Hz refresh but my Sony XBR flat panel converts 24p to 60p adding 3:2 to convert it. I can still see the judder on the Sony. I also have a Duo Video processor and can input 24p and output 60P to my projector.

So with the VIP box you will see judder as 24p is converted to 720/60p.

Doing some research supposedly the Nvidea graphics card and 3D vision don't have this problem wih 60 Hz displays that the VIP products do, which tells me it does a better job at 24 to 60 Hz conversion.

Some displays may frame lock with PC video resolutions but not with NTSC video. That may be the difference. I already said there is no difference between 120Hz and 60Hz conversion so if it works at 120 it should work at 60Hz. That is another experiment I want to try on my JVC. Feed it a PC resolution. I can force it with my Duo VP.

I didn't know the 3D vision worked with 60Hz output.

I think you need to accept that your projectors don't frame lock. There are other with no problems running at 60Hz. Now maybe there is something wrong with your VIP unit. Although you said it works at 120Hz so it appears to work.

Also if there was something wrong with the conversion the display would see the same errors thus it would stay in sync. One of my flat panels would swap polarity like crazy. Jonathan was going to send me another unit and he never did but that was because i told him to hold off until we heard news from JVC. I don't get the excessive polarity flips on my JVC like my old Olevia TV. The Olevia converts from 720p to 768p so something weird going on there.

I except they don't work what I don't accept is that this device was marketed as a solution for 60Hz non 3D and 120 hz 3D displays which it clearly is not. Also there is an instance where 1 user had success with the 8100 display and another didn't. There are to many instances of 60 hz problems. If I had at least 1 or 2 out of 4 pj's that worked I could accept that but 4 out 4, no way. I also asked about my pj's
prior to ordering and VIP said no problem. While 120 hz is double 60 hz I don't have enough knowledge as to know what it takes to convert from 24hz. I do know that there is a lot of technology that goes into it from my experience with resolving some of my scaler issues. The optoma and sharp are not your run of the mill pj's and were very highly rated and expensive.

Does you blu ray player offer an option to force 1080/60 output? That would put the conversion ahead of the VIP, and everything in the chain should just be dealing with 60hz, and that should settle it being a conversion issue.

Let's look at another approach too... You are using the RF glasses, yes? How is the tranceiver/emitter hooked up for power? Do you have an AC adapter for the usb, or do you have it hooked up to a blu ray player or computer? An adapter to a wall outlet may ensure that you're not experiencing fluctuations due to power issues.

I was looking to do that in the menu but could only force resolution and not frequency. I'm looking into other BR players that may do that. I could return this player sony bx57 to CC since they don't have a time limit on returns. I know the displayer handles 1080P30 hz not sure 60 Hz.

All you have to do is turn off 24p output. All players have this feature as a lot of displays can't handle 24p.

The other issue here is you may be using too much duty cycle and you see ghosting because the panels don't refresh quick enough. The amount of depth in the image changes and when the separation between eyes is greater you can see more ghosting. I have to be down around 50-60% duty cycle to eliminate ghosting in these great depth of image scenes. Maybe you feel it shouldn't be that dim. Sorry to say it does need to be dim! Your duty cycle is too high and there is some ghosting. Get a high gain screen and lower the duty cycle.

This would explain why some people have problems and other don't. Also I agree with the power requirements. You must have a 5V USB power supply that can supply 1 Amp or 1000ma of current or else the emitter might flip polarity and do god knows what. I also found that lower current power supplies will work for a while and then things start to screw up.

i read that in the manual. Don't know what this will buy me except to try. The power is rock solid, I'm using a 2 amp supply. Also when I set it up initially the 3D image is very good as time elapses I can see bleed through, loss of 3 d depth, and then even get to where I need to flip the glasses over. I do understand the adjustment for brightness and its impact on ghosting. DLP does not have response time problems like LCD's. It's just that your spending time waiting for these things to happen and dealing with them instead of just enjoying the 3D. My 60 hz pj's are superior at 2D to the acer. But what a surprise how the acer comes to life in 3D.

3D Blu-ray players can only output Blu-ray movies at 1080p24. There is no 1080p60 option because 1080p24 frame-packing is double the normal bandwidth of 2D 1080p24. 1080p60 frame-packing is not part of the HDMI 3D standard and requires too much bandwidth for pretty much every HDMI product out there today.

If I didn't have a long throw requirement I would get the acer. Sounds like you have the same problem as me with my JVC's but JVC has confirmed no frame lock. The better displays that use special video processing chips tend to not have frame lock.

Oh that's right! I was thinking 2D movies at 1080p/60.

That's true, I forgot those player adjustments were just for 2d output.

But culdn't mkoss input some SBS or TNB content (cable or satellite 3d at 720p/60 or 1080i/60), in order to veryify that the problem lies in the projector & not in the frame rate conversion?

Thing is if the conversion was wrong the display would display the wrong conversion and the glasses would sync to the bad conversion. The only explanation is not frame lock to in coming video in the projector and I think Hokeysmoke has shown not a lot have frame lock.

Agreed.

Mkoss, I understand you frustration, but it may be that the VIP unit may just not work with your gear. It would still be worth it to contact Epson & Sharp & try to confirm the frame lock issues, and talk to Jonathan at VIP to see if you can set up some testing for your models. Also, keep in mind that the two 60hz VIP products bring the total number of products on the market that enable 3d blu ray without a computer on 60hz displays to... two.

Fortunatley, they have a good return policy (if you are looking to return... you may want to keep the unit for use with your Acer, as it sounds like the results there are good). Contact Jonathan & I'm sure he'll work with you.