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Bi-amping: what is an affordable electronic x-over?

post #1 of 23
6/3/11 at 2:19pm
Thread Starter 
Hi guys,
I read about bi-amping on Rod Elliott site and really like the idea of separating the low and mid/high before feeding the amp. I'm wanting to do this for my front L/R just to satisfy my engineering curiosity :-). However, I don't want to spend an arm and a leg for an active x-over. Is there any good used one out there that is ~<$150? Can you do a DIY one with the 2-Way Linkwitz Riley?
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post #2 of 23
6/3/11 at 5:36pm
interesting! will you be attempting an active bi-amp sir? you will be taking down the crossovers in the speakers also?

sorry for responding to your question with another one, but I am also interested in bi-amping, but my electrical know-how is just jack-@@@@

very much interested in how you will be doing yours sir, thanks!
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post #3 of 23
6/3/11 at 6:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by lanced View Post

Hi guys,
I read about bi-amping on Rod Elliott site and really like the idea of separating the low and mid/high before feeding the amp. I'm wanting to do this for my front L/R just to satisfy my engineering curiosity :-). However, I don't want to spend an arm and a leg for an active x-over. Is there any good used one out there that is ~<$150? Can you do a DIY one with the 2-Way Linkwitz Riley?

Yes you should be able to build a passive crossover that sits "before" your amplifiers, but I couldn't tell you exactly what to do in order to build it.

Look at Behringer for pre-built products, they seem to be fairly popular.
See here:
http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/DCX2496.aspx
http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/CX3400.aspx
http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/CX2310.aspx
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post #4 of 23
6/3/11 at 7:30pm
Try this site. http://sound.westhost.com/project09.htm
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post #5 of 23
6/4/11 at 2:48am
I have the dbx223XL which is in your price range. Excellent unit, and it adds or subtracts absolutely nothing from the sound - it simply does its job. The XL means it's all balanced ins/outs, if you want the RCA version they have that too.

One thing to be aware of: one you plug it in it stays on. It uses very low power, but what I did I got one of those on/off extension cords.
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post #6 of 23
6/4/11 at 3:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by lanced View Post

Hi guys,
I read about bi-amping on Rod Elliott site and really like the idea of separating the low and mid/high before feeding the amp. I'm wanting to do this for my front L/R just to satisfy my engineering curiosity :-). However, I don't want to spend an arm and a leg for an active x-over. Is there any good used one out there that is ~<$150? Can you do a DIY one with the 2-Way Linkwitz Riley?

You have a lot of options. Like another poster, I have a DBX 223. One shortcoming is that there is a separate frequency control for each channel. It is more convenient in your probable application if they are ganged together. Admittedly a nit.

The Behringer crossovers, especially the digital DCX 2496 are good values. The DCX2496 goes well beyond being just a crossover, but is also an amplifier management system,

Most of the crossovers I own are by Rane. More expensive, but also very fine.
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post #7 of 23
6/4/11 at 8:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by diomania View Post

Try this site. http://sound.westhost.com/project09.htm

and this one, too: http://www.marchandelec.com/
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post #8 of 23
6/5/11 at 5:59am
Sir you need miniDSP... Done!
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post #9 of 23
6/6/11 at 1:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by aazeez1975 View Post

Sir you need miniDSP... Done!

Took a look at the product web page and it is indeed applicable. Interesting way that it is sold, modular for both hardware and firmware.

If you exceed a certain not uncommon level of complexity, you move up into products like the Behringer DCX 2496, which bundle a fairly large collection of the same kind of hardware and software into an pre-integrated package.
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post #10 of 23
6/6/11 at 1:35am
^^^ As a multiple DCX owner, I agree, but there is a new MiniDSP 2x8 unit that looks good and I would strongly consider myself if I were starting from scratch.
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post #11 of 23
6/6/11 at 6:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post
^^^ As a multiple DCX owner, I agree, but there is a new MiniDSP 2x8 unit that looks good and I would strongly consider myself if I were starting from scratch.
The first thing I find missing from the MiniDSP plug-ins is limiting.
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post #12 of 23
6/6/11 at 8:59am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by maruzen View Post
interesting! will you be attempting an active bi-amp sir? you will be taking down the crossovers in the speakers also?

sorry for responding to your question with another one, but I am also interested in bi-amping, but my electrical know-how is just jack-@@@@

very much interested in how you will be doing yours sir, thanks!
Yes, that is what I'm going to do. Based on my understanding, you would add an active x-over for the low & mid/hi (2-way), then bypass the low passive x-over in the speaker (still keep the mid/hi passive x-over as it still needed to separate the mid & hi)
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post #13 of 23
6/6/11 at 9:00am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by walbert View Post

Yes you should be able to build a passive crossover that sits "before" your amplifiers, but I couldn't tell you exactly what to do in order to build it.

Look at Behringer for pre-built products, they seem to be fairly popular.
See here:
http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/DCX2496.aspx
http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/CX3400.aspx
http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/CX2310.aspx

Thanks. I read a little bit about the CX2310 during the weekend. It seems to have a bit of a hum at low volume. I'm not sure if it was a defect unit or a characteristic of cheap x-over in general.
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post #14 of 23
6/6/11 at 9:12am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ddgtr View Post

I have the dbx223XL which is in your price range. Excellent unit, and it adds or subtracts absolutely nothing from the sound - it simply does its job. The XL means it's all balanced ins/outs, if you want the RCA version they have that too.

One thing to be aware of: one you plug it in it stays on. It uses very low power, but what I did I got one of those on/off extension cords.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

You have a lot of options. Like another poster, I have a DBX 223. One shortcoming is that there is a separate frequency control for each channel. It is more convenient in your probable application if they are ganged together. Admittedly a nit.

The Behringer crossovers, especially the digital DCX 2496 are good values. The DCX2496 goes well beyond being just a crossover, but is also an amplifier management system,

Most of the crossovers I own are by Rane. More expensive, but also very fine.

Thanks for the suggestions.
The DCX2496 is a bit too expensive for me.
I'll check out the DBX 223. Seems to get good review.
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post #15 of 23
6/6/11 at 9:31am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by aazeez1975 View Post

Sir you need miniDSP... Done!

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Took a look at the product web page and it is indeed applicable. Interesting way that it is sold, modular for both hardware and firmware.

If you exceed a certain not uncommon level of complexity, you move up into products like the Behringer DCX 2496, which bundle a fairly large collection of the same kind of hardware and software into an pre-integrated package.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

The first thing I find missing from the MiniDSP plug-ins is limiting.

Oh, this is an interesting product. The software interface would be very useful. Will sampling rate of 48Khz and 24-bit ADC/DAC enough? I love to go digital, but is there any concern on the audio quality due to ADC then DAC conversion?
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post #16 of 23
6/6/11 at 11:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by lanced View Post

Oh, this is an interesting product. The software interface would be very useful. Will sampling rate of 48Khz and 24-bit ADC/DAC enough? I love to go digital, but is there any concern on the audio
quality due to ADC then DAC conversion?

The digital input option allows you to minimize the number of conversions to just one like you have today.

Even without it, good DACs and ADCs can typically introduce from 5 to 20 conversion pairs without audible degradation.
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post #17 of 23
6/6/11 at 4:20pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

The digital input option allows you to minimize the number of conversions to just one like you have today.

Even without it, good DACs and ADCs can typically introduce from 5 to 20 conversion pairs without audible degradation.

Thanks for the input.
With a 2V input range, would that limiting my ability to control the volume via my receiver's pre-out?
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post #18 of 23
6/6/11 at 6:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by lanced View Post

Thanks for the input.
With a 2V input range, would that limiting my ability to control the volume via my receiver's pre-out?

Not likely. The preamp out of most receivers is between 1 and 2 volts.
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post #19 of 23
6/6/11 at 11:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

The first thing I find missing from the MiniDSP plug-ins is limiting.

Never even used them on the DCX's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lanced View Post

Thanks. I read a little bit about the CX2310 during the weekend. It seems to have a bit of a hum at low volume. I'm not sure if it was a defect unit or a characteristic of cheap x-over in general.

I know a couple of people with them and they do not hum. More likely the user didn't integrate it into system properly.
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post #20 of 23
6/7/11 at 4:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

Never even used them on the DCX's.

I know a couple of people with them and they do not hum. More likely the user didn't integrate it into system properly.

A big possibility.

I don't have *any* of Behringer's crossovers, but I do have a number of their distribution amps and analog parametric crossovers.

I have a friend who has a bunch of DCX 2496s in a 7;1 system. He also has marketed a piece of test equipment that incorporated a X in it. H sold a good number of these syste. Another friend uses his DCXs as part of a 3 channel 4-way system.

The general take on Behringer around ehre is that their equipment is just fine except for an occasional sample defect. That is reality for every vendor.

They may have had a period of speed bumps when they did their ROHS transition which was several years ago.

Equipment like this is generally designed as a family, and use the same power suplies and interface circuits.

One of the Berhinger analog parametric eqs I obtained used and has a bit of a noise problem in one channel until it is used for a few minutes, and then it is fine until it sits idle on the shelf for a few months.

All the other Behringer equipment I have has always been just fine. I did have a Behringer digital eq about 15 years ago that I bought used and died after I used it for about a decade. Se la vie!

I'd say that the noise problem I found in one of my Behrigner parametric eqa is a single-sample defect and I should really repair it. The other 5 channels (3 devices) I have work fine.

The favorable operational characteristics of the rest of the gear is what I would expect from their products when bought new today.
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post #21 of 23
6/7/11 at 9:08am
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the information from the experts here. I'm still trying to figure things out from what I can read on the web. My current system is very simple: everything goes through the 5 ch Parasound amp for a 5.1 setup. Sound pretty good. No complaint there as I'm not an audiophile anyway. But as I said earlier, the concept of bi-amping intrigued me to push my system to the best it can deliver and I think adding a miniDSP would do that.

This is what I will change the setup to. Would this work? Do you see any obvious stupidity here? I can see that balancing the outputs to various speakers would require some calibration, but that can be done.

http://www.pbase.com/lhphoto/image/135366531
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post #22 of 23
6/7/11 at 12:46pm
^^ Lanced - yes.
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post #23 of 23
6/7/11 at 12:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

A big possibility.

I don't have *any* of Behringer's crossovers, but I do have a number of their distribution amps and analog parametric crossovers.

I have a friend who has a bunch of DCX 2496s in a 7;1 system. He also has marketed a piece of test equipment that incorporated a X in it. H sold a good number of these syste. Another friend uses his DCXs as part of a 3 channel 4-way system.

The general take on Behringer around ehre is that their equipment is just fine except for an occasional sample defect. That is reality for every vendor.

They may have had a period of speed bumps when they did their ROHS transition which was several years ago.

Equipment like this is generally designed as a family, and use the same power suplies and interface circuits.

One of the Berhinger analog parametric eqs I obtained used and has a bit of a noise problem in one channel until it is used for a few minutes, and then it is fine until it sits idle on the shelf for a few months.

All the other Behringer equipment I have has always been just fine. I did have a Behringer digital eq about 15 years ago that I bought used and died after I used it for about a decade. Se la vie!

I'd say that the noise problem I found in one of my Behrigner parametric eqa is a single-sample defect and I should really repair it. The other 5 channels (3 devices) I have work fine.

The favorable operational characteristics of the rest of the gear is what I would expect from their products when bought new today.

Agree generally with the above especially that the B gear is often datasheet good/bad in implementation. It's pretty hard to screw up basic analogue to the point where something as obvious as hum is an issue in a design and unlike many people am confident their designers are at least competent and they surely have the budget to pay for someone now that can read datasheets and implement IC designer application notes.

My DCX's are for my surrounds/subs and I am in the process of replacing the analogue I/O because I want V/C after the DACS and can do better, but more importantly they serve as a platform to get me back into embedded and PCB design after working for years in HV. I also like to solder and build stuff.
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