Cambridge Audio Minx Loudspeaker Discussion Thread - Page 38

Yes, please, that'd be great! I'm in the US.

Thanks.

An interesting, economical, yet not entirely satisfying BMR implementation:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13645_3-57564113-47/a-kickstarter-project-promises-crystal-clear-sounding-speakers/

Yah. Unfortunately it looks like a lab experiment box with a grill for air intake.

At least someone is messing around with 4.5 BMRs.

Hi all,

I've decided to return the Minx that I just received. I convinced myself that a reduced price was not worth the compromise.
I purchased an s212 with an additional Min 10 for the center. I also ordered two Min 11s for the surrounds. (My wife wanted white surrounds. White Min 10s are becoming scarce. I was able to order them from a web site, but the vendor told me they were out but would send MIn11s.)

I was getting a bad feeling about the adequacy of the x200 for our room. I contacted the vendor about upgrading to the x300. I would lose the s212 package pricing and would basically be buying a la carte. The reason that I chose this vendor would be gone.

Due to a kitchen and bathroom remodeling project, the home theater project is getting delayed. There is no way that I will be getting the room in shape and getting an AVR in time to try out these speakers before the 30-day return limit expires. So, I figured it would be best to return them. Plus, I figured that I may as well go with the v2s.

With the more relaxed time frame, I want to spend a little more time deciding what I want.
For the front, I need to choose between the 11s and 21s. I'm leaning towards the 21s. I think I might have been hoping for more from the smaller speakers than can be expected.

For the surrounds, I'm OK with the 11s regardless of what I choose for the front. The smaller size will provide more flexibility in aiming the speakers.

I need to choose a sub as well. The x300 is the easy choice. I know that there are some on this thread who feel that the CA subs are pricey and that there are better choices.
How would you choose a sub besides the CAs from the myriad models available? Some articles on subwoofer selection say you can mix any good sub with any good sats. But I've also seen reviews on the Minx that say that the sub blends seamlessly with the sats. Could I choose a good sub only to find that it doesn't play well with the Minx?

Our room is 280 ft^2 and 2700 ft^3 (15.5 x 18, vaulted ceiling). It has pocket doors so the volume can be limited to just that of the room. It will be used more for movies/gaming than for music. Volume will be modest.

My wife wants it to be aesthetically pleasing. Black lacquer like the MInx would be a plus. Small is also a plus.

As for budget, I see no reason to go beyond the x300 ($600) since that should work fine.

I would appreciate any input on this.

Thanks,
John

The two primary difficulties with finding a subwoofer to properly mate with the Minx speakers are 1) that it must be able to play cleaning to at least 150Hz 2) it needs to be fairly articulate and dynamic to match the transient response of the speakers. Few are able to do both of those things, and even fewer at that price point. There are some though, but the first one that springs to mind is the SVS SB12-NSD. It will hit every one of your marks, but does cost $50 more then you were looking to spend. The "lite" version of that sub is the SB1000. It doesn't have the same gloss finish, but has nearly the performance for $150 less. If you would prefer to go with deeper bass, at the expense of a little definition, the PB1000 is something to consider.

Thanks for the heads up on those subs Jim. I have been looking at both of those and considering them along the Paradigm Monitor SUB 8 or SUB 10.

I'm sure that these are all excellent recommendations.

I'm not concerned about being future-proof; I'm not the type to upgrade. I bought my only receiver in 1985. I last bought speakers in 1995. If the system works for me today, it will work for me tomorrow.

I'm sure I would be happy with the x300, and see no reason to exceed the price of it. I also don't want to exceed 1 ft^3. Earlier in this thread, Perpendicular indicated that there were subs comparable to the Cambridge subs for considerably less cost. The Energy ESW-M8 NA was mentioned, among others.
I'm fine with the x300; it will be my default choice if I can't find anything else. But I got the impression that there were subs that would be suitable substitutions for the x300 at a considerably lower cost.

If something is $500+ I would choose the x300.

Thanks,
John

OK, I've warmed up to the idea of the SVSes and need to investigate further. I've been trying to get by on the cheap. It's just my nature. My wife hasn't put any budget constraints on me; just aesthetic constraints. This is well within our budget. I need to do this right.

I'm ruling out the PB-1000 on size, and considering the SB12-NSD, SB1000, and x300. How do you decide how much sub is enough for your space. One of the Press Reviews on the SVS site says the SB12-NSD is good for rooms up to ~2000 ft^3. I'm at 2700 ft^3.
Jim, would you consider the x300 to be inadequate, or just that the others are a better value (significantly better for comparable $ in the case of the SB12, comparable or better for less $ in the case of the other two)?

From the "New SVS SB1000 & PB1000 Subwoofers!!" thread:

That's a long room, but it is narrow and has low ceilings. Assuming 8-foot ceilings, it is ~2500 ft^3. Why do you think the SB1000 will get swallowed there but not in our 2700 ft^3 room. Does form factor matter?

Thanks,
John

You're confusing my answers to separate questions.

In your case it seemed you were interested in potential alternatives to the x300, which is a very small subwoofer. I tossed out a few suggestions for options that were about the same size. In the case of the second question the context was different, and that person wanted to know what would work for their given situation. There wasn't anything, size wise, they were trying to match, so I had more latitude to answer.

A 2700 CF room is not small, and as such I don't think either the SB1000 or SB12-NSD would be sufficient. You could probably get away with either if you were only interested in listening to music at a moderate level, but HT is completely different. Duals would probably be good, but not a single. For a room that size I'm not convinced even a single PB1000 would be enough. It would be able to do much better then the SB1000 or SB12, but it would probably struggle if you started turning up the volume too loud.

From what I recall from the previous pages of this thread, don't you want *everyone* to have two subs ?

I was pleased that I had narrowed down the list of contenders, now this to muddy up the waters!

What would the advantages and disadvantages of each configuration be? To make this a two-horse race, let's pick the SB12-NSD.
How would one of these compare to two ESW-M8-NAs?

This brings up myriad questions:

Is the SB12 suitable for our room size?

I don't *need* really low-end bass, but how do I know if I *want* really low-end bass? What does that extra 12 Hz do for me? Would it be more beneficial for movies than for music?

How easy is it to position two subs?
I read somewhere that there was benefit to stacking two subs. True?
Could I place one on each side of the TV stand?
Would I need a 5.2 AVR (realistically, it would probably be a 7.2 even though I'm not using the full 7) or just a Y-cable? Or is there a "sub-out" that would daisy chain them together.
Do I want more separation between the subs? If so, I might need to modify my plans for wall jacks to accommodate the sub cable.

If there is concern about room size for the sub, would there be concern for the satellites as well? I've been trying to decide between the 11s and 21s for the front. Any concerns about the 11s?

What do I need to ask that I haven't?

I don't really think of our room as big. Am I trying to use small-room equipment in a medium-sized room?

I've learned a lot during this process. I still have much to learn.

Thanks,
John
Edited by ItsJohnB - 1/30/13 at 3:58am

Agreed. I certainly gave some size and cost parameters. But I wouldn't have been averse to some friendly, knowledgeable advice that my parameters were inadequate.

It sounds like a variation of the old adage - good, inexpensive, small: pick two. I need to gain a better feel for how much is enough. As an EE, I understand a lot of the concepts and tradeoffs, but I don't have a feel for the relative magnitudes of the box size, driver size, or power level that is needed for a given application.

If my wife wants small, and I want good, then $$ is going to have to give.

I talked to my wife and her size limit isn't as restricting as I thought: it must be somewhat shorter and shallower than the TV stand that will be next to it. This would be about 20" H x 18" D. She arbitrarily chose 18"W.
She is open to dual, and would accept stacked, bookends around the TV stand, or one by the TV stand and one behind the couch.

For cost, I'm picking $1200, which is, not coincidentally, the price of two SB12-NSDs in piano black.

Any recommendations given these new parameters? I'm open to either single or dual. I like the idea of dual since I could get one now, and add one for Father's Day or my birthday.

As a starting point, I'd like to know which of the previously recommended products would work in my application as duals: ESW-M8-NA, PB-1000, SB-1000, SB12-NSD.

Thanks,
John

[BTW, should I consider opening a thread in the subwoofers section for this? I tried searching for the Minx over there and didn't find much. General searches for "Best Subwoofers under $X" result in units with too low of an upper frequency.]

Hello,

I am personally involved with the Kickstarter, I actually started a thread here http://www.avsforum.com/t/1455803/acube-bmr-stereo-speaker-system, asking for feedback regarding the product.

I have to admit, the response thus far hasn't been favourable. The CNET that you quoted was really a back hand to the product, and the audio issues.

I would really be interested to get some a conversation going in the aformentioned forum topic with all that are intersted, it would be really helpful to get some feedback, good or bad.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/320792163/the-coleridge-design-acube-bmr-speaker-system

Hello,

I am personally involved with the aCube Kickstarter, I actually started a thread here http://www.avsforum.com/t/1455803/acube-bmr-stereo-speaker-system, asking for feedback regarding this product.

I have to admit, the response thus far hasn't been favourable. The CNET that you quoted was really a back hand to the product, and the audio issues. And I think the information provided by the kickstarter page might be a good read.

I would really be interested to get some a conversation going in the aformentioned forum topic with all that are intersted, it would be really helpful to get some feedback, good or bad.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/320792163/the-coleridge-design-acube-bmr-speaker-system

So, you feel that I should choose one of Jim's SVS suggestions, you'd like to see me choose dual Energy/Mirage like you did, and my best choice is a CA sub.
To paraphrase Mark Twain, if I don't like Jeff's recommendation, just wait a few minutes !

The last one is of most concern. I'm always skeptical of advice given with a wink. And no, I do not assume that the x[n]00s are best just because they were made for the Mins. Perhaps I couldn't go wrong, but some on this thread (including the recognized sub guru) feel that I could go "righter"!

As I worked my way through this thread, I noticed some inconsistency in your attitude towards the CA subs. You recommended them to numerous posters as their best choice, yet you avoided them due to the -3dB upper limit creating a "hole," the inability to bypass the crossover (which you found unacceptable), and the cost (you got a twofer for the price of a onefer). I would think that these deficiencies would affect the other posters as well.

Among the others who feel that the CA subs are pricey are Jim, Bazzy, and EnglishGent. Jim has stated it numerous times.
This comment stuck with me: I think I'll look elsewhere.

If you had stuck with your first best choice for me, you would have been right. I feel that Jim's SVS suggestions are my best path. Given the difficulty in finding subs with a suitable upper end for the Minx, I don't think it pays for me to look any further. I could spend weeks sorting through specs trying to find subs that work with the Minx. And when I DID find one, most likely it would exceed my size limit and/or my budget.

I like the SB12-NSD. For a few $ more, it is a better choice than the x300. More power, larger driver (even when adding the areas of the x300 driver and PR), and deeper bass, without adding too much size. It would be nice to maintain the consistent styling with the sats, but not THAT nice. My wife will like the gloss finish. (The PB-1000 and SB-1000 look like painted plywood.)

So, as of now, here's my plan. I get one SB12-NSD. I know that Jim feels that this is inadequate for our 2700 ft^3 room. Based on the volume levels at which I expect our family will use these, I think it might be fine. I listened to the x300 in a room much larger than our room and there was plenty of volume for me.

Once my sons decide that they need to hear realistic explosions, I could be wrong.

If I'm wrong, I get another SB12-NSD. Both Jim and Jeff espouse the virtues of dual subs. Buying two, the price is the same as for the x300, and there's no reason to get the x300. I wouldn't be buying them at the same time, but I think that this would qualify for their 1-yr. upgrade policy. Heck, they might even be open to extending it past 1 yr. since I wouldn't be returning anything, just receiving another one.

Why not the x500? I'm hedging my bet. I would save money and space with one x500 vs. two SB-12s, but save money (but not space) with one SB12. Plus, I'm not convinced I'd be getting additional performance commensurate with the 50% additional cost. If I DO need two SB12s, it's not THAT much more, and I get the benefit of dual subs.

-John

ItsJohnB:

Putting aside that speaker measurements can either be enlightening, or inconclusive and misleading (based on the method of measurement used with a particular transducer, as well as translating all of this to your own acoustics), and given that we don't have comprehensive measurements for the Minx, your ears have to be the best guide.

I know that Perpendicular is a real hands-on guy, and tests things in his own acoustical environment, so his results are experienced based. Jim does the same.

I like to stay within the manufacturer's own range when possible, given that a good audio designer strives for unity and coherence in sound. Of course, this is more true when systems are using conventional drivers, all designed and manufactured by the same facilities, but even when the driver types are dissimilar (a BMR and a "conventional" subwoofer), skilled designers and manufacturers still strive for unity in sound. And CA's subwoofer design looks very interesting.

You certainly cannot make a mistake if you stick with something like the X300 or the X500, and you will know that CA designed them to work together with their BMRs. Nor will you make a mistake if you choose one of the subwoofers recommended by testers on this forum. You really have to listen to them, preferably in your own environment, if you want to get this down to something that is definitive and provable for you. On the other hand, you could probably go either route and tweak the system to sound excellent.
Edited by taichi4 - 2/2/13 at 12:55pm

Two words; universal remote.

Did you have an Oppo before? I don't remember that.

Actually, I didn't know about the 105. Very impressive! I just have the 103, which is really nice, so I can only imagine what the 105 is like.

I don't understand this statement. It was in response to my questioning your advice to go with a CA sub. You are saying that I didn't want to go with the CA sub. That's consistent.

But it is not correct. Initially, the CA sub was the only sub I considered. In fact, I actually bought a CA sub: But decided that the x200 would be underpowered.

So I needed a new sub, a better sub: So the x300 was the default choice, but I wanted to consider alternatives. Which I sincerely appreciate! I was being a bit facetious (I even used a ; you can say anything on the Internet as long as you throw out some emoticons )
But I did feel that there was a bit of a contradiction between the first and third quotes: In the first one, you are telling me that I should be loudspeaker-agnostic. Not loudspeaker-unaware, as the sub must be compatible with the MInx, but get something that I would buy even if I wasn't getting the Minx and would continue to use if I changed loudspeakers.
Now, this does not necessarily preclude a CA sub, but I would guess that the number of people who buy a CA x*** sub as a standalone product for use with non-Minx loudspeakers is quite small. I consider this to be a recommendation for a non-CA sub.

In the next quote, you are telling me that my best choice is a CA sub . OK, I missed the mark on this one. I thought that you were making a strong recommendation for a pair of one particular sub, rather than for dual subs in general.
Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.
I'm finding lots of people in agreement with you. This is from the Serious Audio Blog review of the SVS SB12-NSD:
"Multiple subwoofers are absolutely necessary for high-fidelity upper bass reproduction in the home." OK, here's where I have to question your "best choice" advice. If you want to suggest I listen to the CA subs, fine. But best choice??? As I said earlier, I do not assume that two products are the best mates simply because they are of the same brand. Products may be added to round out the product line and provide one stop shopping. One of the products may be out of the area of expertise of the company. Not saying that is the case with CA, but both being CA does not ensure the best solution. Not expecting you to tell them how to set price levels, but this does affect the value of the product relative to other brands and whether it is a best choice for me. I was speaking to you. I was quoting Jim as another data point that the CA subs might not be my best choice. The use of "Jim" in the third person is a clue . I picked something: That's all I ask. I want data so that I can provide my own answer. If someone says "I feel your best choice is [] because..." that is welcome input that I can process and determine if it really is my best choice.
But when someone says "These Subs are the best choice" without providing any info, it sounds like they are trying to give me an answer!

I asked for suggestions for a sub and got some excellent recommendations from Jim and you. Investigating these further, I found where Jim indicated that one of his would be inadequate for my size room. Not faulting Jim; he answered the questions that I asked. So I asked more questions, and found that he considered all of his suggestions inadequate for my room.

As you said, only I can determine what will work for me, and I think that there is a good chance that a single SB12-NSD will work in our room at the levels at which it will be played. I'll find out. I can't determine that something will work until I get it in my home, but in some cases it may be possible to determine that something will not work without having to get it here. I can't go to a store and audition an SVS sub, but I can try to find something comparable in terms of output, listen to that, and try to decide if it is loud enough for our purposes. If so, I'll bring the SB12 in. If I like the sound, but DO find that it can't reach the levels that we want, I might bring in two.

That would be a pretty pricey solution (at least by my standards), but seems to be my best option for something that will provide some of the lower bass in movies, be compatible with the Minx frequency range, and pass the Aesthetics Review Board.

I'm open to other suggestions for subs. When Jim suggested the SVS models, I had some pretty tight restrictions on size and cost. I'm wondering if there are other options with more relaxed requirements. I'd be particularly interested in a single sub that would work for 2700 ft^3 and still be reasonably sized.

-John
Edited by ItsJohnB - 3/25/13 at 1:19pm