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Cambridge Audio Minx Loudspeaker Discussion Thread - Page 20

post #571 of 1431
Thread Starter 
Why would someone want a speaker that has such a large baffle as opposed to the small size of the drivers? Too much diffraction. Plus, they're ugly as all get out.
post #572 of 1431
Hi All.

A couple of more speakers with "BMR" Drivers but they are not exactly compact but the Drivers certainly look bigger than 2.5" so it seems things might be heading in the right direction?

http://www.rega.co.uk/html/RS-10.htm

http://www.wilmslow-audio.co.uk/the-rhythm-king-loudspeaker-kit-1084-p.asp

Bazzy!
post #573 of 1431
Thread Starter 
Indeed.
I like the design of the RS-10 but I bet the smaller footprint of a Minx system would still outperform both of these models in many ways.
post #574 of 1431
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bazzy View Post

Hi All.
A couple of more speakers with "BMR" Drivers but they are not exactly compact but the Drivers certainly look bigger than 2.5" so it seems things might be heading in the right direction?
http://www.rega.co.uk/html/RS-10.htm
http://www.wilmslow-audio.co.uk/the-rhythm-king-loudspeaker-kit-1084-p.asp
Bazzy!

The RS10 I wasn't aware of, but the Rhythm King I had seen before. It uses a BMR driver from a company named Cotswold Sound Systems. They sell to the DIY crowd in Europe, but have no US distribution unfortunately (guess how I know that smile.gif).
post #575 of 1431
The description of the RS 10 seems to state that the BMR extends to 6 kHz. I'm wondering if this means that despite the unconventional nature of the BMR that increasing the diameter beyond a certain point limits higher frequencies. It would be helpful if they stated how far down the RS 10 BMR extends.

Maybe what's needed for a truly full range speaker would be a series of BMRs of different diameters, all joined in a system without crossovers.

In this respect the Étude 1 design might be helpful, as one of the two drivers in tandem has an attenuation at one point in its frequency range to avoid undesirable reinforcement.
post #576 of 1431
Hi All,

Found two more speakers with BMR Drivers - they are from a very respected brand here in England called Naim Audio:

(S600 = 85mm BMR / S400 = 46mm BMR)

http://www.naimaudio.com/hifi-products/pdt-type/178

http://www.naimaudio.com/hifi-products/ovator-s-400

It seems all the BMR stuff is happening this side of the pond?


Bazzy!
post #577 of 1431
I read some reviews of them before, but I think they are quite costly.

Yeah. The British have always made excellent speakers. They care about language, and it only makes sense that they care about sound.
post #578 of 1431
Quote:
Originally Posted by taichi4 View Post

They care about language, and it only makes sense that they care about sound.

Anybody that says "bloody" as a descriptive word can't be too concerned about the language... biggrin.gif

The Brit's do seem to know about audio though. Q Acoustics has the LCR Speaker which features BMR's. Manger has a transducer with similar design aspects to BMR drivers. CEAD uses BMR for their architectural speakers. They're "down unda" but that's like English once removed, isn't it? tongue.gif
post #579 of 1431
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by taichi4 View Post

The description of the RS 10 seems to state that the BMR extends to 6 kHz. I'm wondering if this means that despite the unconventional nature of the BMR that increasing the diameter beyond a certain point limits higher frequencies. It would be helpful if they stated how far down the RS 10 BMR extends.
Maybe what's needed for a truly full range speaker would be a series of BMRs of different diameters, all joined in a system without crossovers.
In this respect the Étude 1 design might be helpful, as one of the two drivers in tandem has an attenuation at one point in its frequency range to avoid undesirable reinforcement.

I would suspect they are rolling off the BMR driver on the RS-10 at 6 kHz and letting the tweeter take over from there so that it uses as much as the full range frequency as possible. Then, let the tweeter take over the rest of the upper spectrum. Though, I would like to know why such a high crossover point on the BMR driver. It would seem that manufacturers are trying all different kinds of designs right now to stand out from the overcrowded market place.
post #580 of 1431
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bazzy View Post

Hi All,
Found two more speakers with BMR Drivers - they are from a very respected brand here in England called Naim Audio:
(S600 = 85mm BMR / S400 = 46mm BMR)
http://www.naimaudio.com/hifi-products/pdt-type/178
http://www.naimaudio.com/hifi-products/ovator-s-400
It seems all the BMR stuff is happening this side of the pond?
Bazzy!

Are these the older, out of my price range models or something new? Either way, I don't care. tongue.gifbiggrin.gif
post #581 of 1431
But why would they need to have the tweeter take over? Doesn't the high end of the BMR extend fully? The charm of the BMR is that it provides a single point source, but uniquely with wide dispersion, something that dedicated tweeters do not provide with such efficiency.
post #582 of 1431
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post

Anybody that says "bloody" as a descriptive word can't be too concerned about the language.

Uh......... how about Shakespeare? cool.gif
post #583 of 1431
Quote:
Originally Posted by taichi4 View Post

Uh......... how about Shakespeare? cool.gif

How often did he use the word bloody? wink.gif
post #584 of 1431
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by taichi4 View Post

But why would they need to have the tweeter take over? Doesn't the high end of the BMR extend fully? The charm of the BMR is that it provides a single point source, but uniquely with wide dispersion, something that dedicated tweeters do not provide with such efficiency.

Not sure...ask the designer. I'm going to assume that because the BMR driver can be used as a full (near full) range speaker but has difficulties with frequencies above a certain point (8 kHz?) and doesn't fully extend like a dedicated tweeter does. This may be why they opted for the 6 kHz roll off point. This looks to be a larger BMR driver so the problem may lie at a higher frequency. Also, the newer, just released BMR models, may be improved in the trouble area. All this is only speculation on my part.
post #585 of 1431
According to the following, linked website, 502 instances of the word bloody in Shakespeare. Of course, the word is used properly, in the proper context, whereas modern, vernacular usage is an echo of its original meaning.

http://shakespeareswords.com/Search.aspx

The point is, of course, that every country and every people have those who treasure their cultural achievements, and those who are not exemplars of their culture's richness. Given all that, English is a remarkable language, and English people who care use it particularly well, especially in literature, dramatic literature, essays and oratory.

And Shakespeare, in particular, was no slouch.

So anyway......
post #586 of 1431
Quote:
Originally Posted by Perpendicular View Post

Not sure...ask the designer. I'm going to assume that because the BMR driver can be used as a full (near full) range speaker but has difficulties with frequencies above a certain point (8 kHz?) and doesn't fully extend like a dedicated tweeter does. This may be why they opted for the 6 kHz roll off point. This looks to be a larger BMR driver so the problem may lie at a higher frequency. Also, the newer, just released BMR models, may be improved in the trouble area. All this is only speculation on my part.

My speculation is that since the BMR partly behaves as a piston, that it is subject to the same laws that govern normal drivers. With a larger diameter, and a larger radiating area it may be harder for the "ripple action" to work as efficiently in the higher frequencies.

Pure speculation on my part, conceived out of a tired mind.
Ah, the weekend......
post #587 of 1431
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by taichi4 View Post

With a larger diameter, and a larger radiating area it may be harder for the "ripple action" to work as efficiently in the higher frequencies.
Pure speculation on my part, conceived out of a tired mind.

None-the-less.....interesting theory. A larger diameter driver does affect the lower frequencies. Why not the upper frequencies? You'd think that a larger driver, since it delves deeper the larger it gets, would somehow do the same on the other end of the spectrum. Not, so much, the reverse but it's quite possible.
post #588 of 1431
Quote:
Originally Posted by taichi4 View Post

According to the following, linked website, 502 instances of the word bloody in Shakespeare. Of course, the word is used properly, in the proper context, whereas modern, vernacular usage is an echo of its original meaning.

You're putting way too much effort into this. wink.gif

Shakespeare was also prone to saying things like 'tis, so does that mean 'tis is also an appropriate English word?
post #589 of 1431
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post

You're putting way too much effort into this. wink.gif

I think he's channeling Shakespeare. biggrin.gif
post #590 of 1431
Jim:

If a two-minute search on the Internet (you did ask the question) represents too much effort, I must recommend a vitamin-mineral supplement and a modest regime of exercise for you. biggrin.gif

And when you stop using contractions yourself, you can object to Shakespeare using them. At least he was using them for purposes of poetic rhythm and meter. rolleyes.gif

Not only am I channeling Shakespeare (possibly the best writer in the English language), I'm doing it in 7.1! cool.gif

Peace, guys. wink.gif
post #591 of 1431
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by taichi4 View Post

Peace, guys. wink.gif

Love ya, babe! biggrin.gif
Where would we be without your input? We appreciate you on this Thread. wink.gif
post #592 of 1431
Quote:
Originally Posted by taichi4 View Post

If a two-minute search on the Internet (you did ask the question) represents too much effort, I must recommend a vitamin-mineral supplement and a modest regime of exercise for you. biggrin.gif

The "question" was purely rhetorical. I don't consider Shakespeare with the same bloody reverence that you apparently do. tongue.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by taichi4 View Post

And when you stop using contractions yourself, you can object to Shakespeare using them. At least he was using them for purposes of poetic rhythm and meter. rolleyes.gif

Not only am I channeling Shakespeare (possibly the best writer in the English language), I'm doing it in 7.1! cool.gif

There's nothing rhythmic about Shakespeare. Personally, I'd characterize his writing style as staccato or convoluted instead. Maybe it's time to get your meter recalibrated. wink.gif

So, how 'bout them BMR's? 'tis that something thou shalt speak'ith about? biggrin.gif
post #593 of 1431
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post

So, how 'bout them BMR's? 'tis that something thou shalt speak'ith about? biggrin.gif

I started to think why CA used a smaller BMR driver instead of something larger. Of course, this stems from the most recent discussion with taichi4 (real name unknown). He brought up a good point in reference to higher frequencies (or, lack thereof) with a larger driver. If CA was able to design a satellite speaker with a larger BMR driver without resorting to using a tweeter, they may very well have. They needed to balance it's original design shortcomings somehow. Perhaps, time to move on from all this speculation since no one directly from CA will step in and Post. Though, all the same, it was fun and interesting.
post #594 of 1431
No rhythm in Shakespeare?!! Surely you jest!! eek.gifeek.gifeek.gif

This is just a quick link, but there are probably millions upon millions of articles, erudite (and written for the popular taste) on the subject of rhythm in Shakespeare:

http://iambicpentameter.net/iambic-pentameter/

With regards to the concept of reverence, that does not describe my feeling at all. Rather it is a matter of respect for and understanding of the greatness of Shakespeare.

Here is a quote from Wikipedia, again chosen because of its ready accessibility. If I did want to put "too much effort into it" I would compile a list of the great literary personalities in world history who acknowledge Shakespeare's greatness:

"Shakespeare's influence extends from theatre and literature to present-day movies and the English language itself. Widely regarded as the greatest writer of the English language,[1] and the world's pre-eminent dramatist,[2][3][4] Shakespeare transformed European theatre by expanding expectations about what could be accomplished through characterization, plot, language and genre.[5][6][7] Shakespeare's writings have also influenced a large number of notable novelists and poets over the years, including Herman Melville[8] and Charles Dickens.[9] Shakespeare is the most quoted writer in the history of the English-speaking world[10][11] after the various writers of the Bible, and many of his quotations and neologisms have passed into everyday usage in English and other languages."

Your argument is not with me, Jim, but with the facts (e.g. rhythm in Shakespeare) and the opinions of countless people whose lives are all about language and literature.

Peace
Edited by taichi4 - 6/9/12 at 12:09pm
post #595 of 1431
And I was thinking about something that you discovered, Perpendicular, with your use of two subwoofers... that there is an improvement of sound. I think you hit upon a way of creating more omnidirectional bass frequency response. The problem with a high crossover from the subwoofer (120 Hz) is that woofers become increasingly directional above 80 Hz, something that is not desirable. By using two subwoofers, I'll bet that you're improving upon the basic Minx system by making the woofer less of a point source. smile.gif
post #596 of 1431
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by taichi4 View Post

And I was thinking about something that you discovered, Perpendicular, with your use of two subwoofers...

Funny, you should bring this up. I've been experimenting with speaker placement (L&R Satellite & Both Subs) & crossover settings the last few weekends. Also, I was continuing my experimentation with 2-channel into 5.2 channel by way of DPLII and DTS Neo:6 processing modes. With speaker placement, I ended up with both L&R Min 20's on stands about 17 inches from the front wall to the front baffle/grill. The two subs ended up on the top shelf of my new entertainment center. Lately, I've been back to using the 200 hz crossover that I was using before but this time is a lot different. The subs are basically at ear level now. If I could raise the crossover to 250 hz, I definitely would. I sure helps to alleviate the tiny drivers of that lower frequency burden and helps to bring out even more detail. I experimented with DPLII Music Mode, NEO: 6 Music Mode and Neo: 6 Cinema Mode including adjusting the dimension settings on all three. When using DPLII and DTS Neo: 6 Music Modes, I kept wanting to revert to stereo. It really didn't sound all that great. I settled on DTS Neo: 6 Cinema at it's default dimension setting of 10. What a world of difference. I don't want to use the term, moving from 2-D to 3-D sound but what I hear is definitely better as far as soundstaging and musician placement. My room becomes the "Live" event. What I found interesting is that I was experimenting with the THX modes too and found I didn't like any of them because it made the higher frequencies sound like there was a blanket over the speakers. I'm still trying to figure out if THX "Loudness Plus" setting is imparting a slight hardness to the sound but so far it's been set to "On" because I listen mostly at lower levels and definitely below reference.
post #597 of 1431
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by taichi4 View Post

The problem with a high crossover from the subwoofer (120 Hz) is that woofers become increasingly directional above 80 Hz, something that is not desirable.

I would love to go back to using a loudspeaker with a 50 hz (preferred) up to 80 hz crossover setting but it won't happen with using smaller drivers such as these. Well, at least, not now with our current technology.
Quote:
Originally Posted by taichi4 View Post

By using two subwoofers, I'll bet that you're improving upon the basic Minx system by making the woofer less of a point source.

Yes, I really do love my two Subs and I'm glad I made the decision of using two with the Minx. If I had to settle with one Sub, it would have to be placed exactly at ear height below the center channel. In fact, at a recommended 140 hz crossover setting, every consumer who uses a Minx system should be doing exactly that. It makes a world of difference in what you hear.
post #598 of 1431
That's all pretty damn creative, Perpendicular. I don't think anyone on this thread has done as much in exploring and opening up the capabilities of the Minx system as you.

Is the point of putting the subwoofers at ear level to create more transparency, by reducing reflections and accidental reinforcement?

Interesting concept, whatever the reason.

Mr. X.
I mean... taichi4
post #599 of 1431
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by taichi4 View Post

That's all pretty damn creative, Perpendicular. I don't think anyone on this thread has done as much in exploring and opening up the capabilities of the Minx system as you.
Is the point of putting the subwoofers at ear level to create more transparency, by reducing reflections and accidental reinforcement?
Interesting concept, whatever the reason.
Mr. X.
I mean... taichi4

Just when I thought I was going to finish enjoying my Watermelon...I get another question. rolleyes.gifbiggrin.gif
Are you asking in my case only? If so, there is another reason like getting my right side Sub above the couch. Playing frequencies this high will not help when it's hiding behind a couch on the floor. Or, other furniture.
post #600 of 1431
Got it.

Please eat your watermelon, but don't spit the seeds at the Min 20s.
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