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Cambridge Audio Minx Satellite Speakers and Home Theater Systems Discussion Thread - Page 18

post #511 of 1868
Thread Starter 
Probably, but if I were you, I'd move the Min 20's to the rear and use the new Min 21 for the three front (LCR). I might do the same when they become available in the States but then I'm stuck with an extra Min 20 that I won't be able to place anywhere.
post #512 of 1868
Quote:
Originally Posted by Perpendicular View Post

Probably, but if I were you, I'd move the Min 20's to the rear and use the new Min 21 for the three front (LCR). I might do the same when they become available in the States but then I'm stuck with an extra Min 20 that I won't be able to place anywhere.

I did start out thinking that as it made perfect sense but then i'm getting that niggling feeling in my head in regards to just getting rid of the min20s and start again with a complete min21 setup instead?
post #513 of 1868
Thread Starter 
How would you get rid of them? Sell them? I thought about that but think I would lose too much money and figured is wasn't worth it. I'd rather allocate the Min 20's to a rear channel. Or, for future, a height or wide channel. I might even double them up like I did before and use them as center duty.
post #514 of 1868
Quote:
Originally Posted by Perpendicular View Post

How would you get rid of them? Sell them? I thought about that but think I would lose too much money and figured is wasn't worth it. I'd rather allocate the Min 20's to a rear channel. Or, for future, a height or wide channel. I might even double them up like I did before and use them as center duty.

Yeah sell them.
post #515 of 1868
Hey perpendicular i emailed cambridge audio in regards to using min20s and min21s and you were right in saying use the min20s as rears which i was also considering too, heres what cambridge audio said...

Hello thanks, for your inquiry the voicing of the minx speakers has not been significantly changed in the recent update so the speakers will work together. The best results would be gained from using the min21s at the front and moving your existing speakers to the rear.

Regards cambridge audio.
post #516 of 1868
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by markiedee View Post

Hey perpendicular i emailed cambridge audio in regards to using min20s and min21s and you were right in saying use the min20s as rears which i was also considering too, heres what cambridge audio said...

It's like I work for CA.
post #517 of 1868
Thread Starter 
A couple of weeks ago, I purchased a new entertainment rack. I was in desperate need of something for all my equipment. What I noticed after setting it up and getting my system dialed in, is that the sound changed. The subs are now still along the front wall but further apart. Tonight, I tried different crossover settings and ended up back at 200 hz that I was using around the first time I purchased the Min 10's. The bass is fuller and more pronounced. Especially, the bass lines. Much closer in sound like I'm listening to a larger two-way speaker. The crossover on my AVR only goes up to 200 hz from 150, which I think is the standard (upper end) setting. I would be interested in hearing a 250 or 300 hz setting but I'm pretty happy at 200. Now, with my space limitation, I need to figure out how to get my main speakers further apart, closer to the subs and away from the wall.
post #518 of 1868
Quote:
Originally Posted by Perpendicular View Post

A couple of weeks ago, I purchased a new entertainment rack. I was in desperate need of something for all my equipment. What I noticed after setting it up and getting my system dialed in, is that the sound changed. The subs are now still along the front wall but further apart. Tonight, I tried different crossover settings and ended up back at 200 hz that I was using around the first time I purchased the Min 10's. The bass is fuller and more pronounced. Especially, the bass lines. Much closer in sound like I'm listening to a larger two-way speaker. The crossover on my AVR only goes up to 200 hz from 150, which I think is the standard (upper end) setting. I would be interested in hearing a 250 or 300 hz setting but I'm pretty happy at 200. Now, with my space limitation, I need to figure out how to get my main speakers further apart, closer to the subs and away from the wall.

After listening to your advice i actually changed the crossover which the denon sets to 250hz to 150hz and i think that it sounds different to my ears but in a very good way.
post #519 of 1868
Hi all,

Thanks very much for this thread, it's been most helpful and enlightening.

I was about to go for some min20/10s with the x200 about a month ago, but then read a very small piece in another thread about the new min21/11s; so as I am based in the UK I now have these. 3 fronts are min21s, and 2 rears are min11s, with the x200. I think Richer Sounds were a bit reluctant to tell me they sold them, preferring I think to sell me off their min20/10 stock still in store. Still, my branch are very helpful though and I'm very pleased with the speakers/sub and think they sound excellent.

But: I need some advice on crossovers...

I did the Audyssey automatic speaker setup on my Onkyo 609 and surprisingly some of the fronts were set at either "full band" or 80 Hz - well below the rated 120 Hz. I notice on the small-print footnote on this website spec - cambridgeaudio.com/specifications.php?PID=1010&Title=Specifications - that they (CA) are recommending AVRs crossover at 140 Hz (perhaps their safety net for roll off).
Since the Onkyo 609 crossover setting values discreetly jump from 120 to 150 Hz, I chose the 150 Hz setting.

However, the Audyssey FAQ on this site and other posts seem to indicate that for general speaker/sub setups Audyssey should be more trusted than the spec rating for in-room conditions. Is this still the case with the minx21/11s though? (Or the min20/10s for that matter?)
I know manufacturers like to over-estimate freq response for marketing, but in this case the Audyssey setup would suggest they have been conservative, since it is lower crossover than the spec rating.
Someone on another thread has told me that I shouldn't worry about damaging the speaker with frequencies lower than the spec because the speaker has its own crossover built in for that reason.

So if Audyssey is to be believed - on frequency capability grounds at least - then there should be no harm in at least setting it to the lower end of the spec rating: 120 Hz?

What do you think though? Go with the Audyssey settings, go with 120 Hz, or go with 150 Hz?
post #520 of 1868
It would be interesting if the Minx system could allow a subwoofer crossover at 80 Hz, as going above 80 Hz (from what I understand) introduces some directionality to the subwoofer. This is one reason why I'm always interested in larger BMR's, with the ability to go deeper into the bass, so as to the preserve the non-directionality of the subwoofer.

But I would be cautious, and rely upon someone who knows the answer for sure, as I would think there might be a possibility of overdriving the Min 21s.

Fascinating... and good luck.

(Have you noticed any difference between the Min20s and the Min21s?)
post #521 of 1868
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by psmithinthecity View Post

Hi all,

Thanks very much for this thread, it's been most helpful and enlightening.

I was about to go for some min20/10s with the x200 about a month ago, but then read a very small piece in another thread about the new min21/11s; so as I am based in the UK I now have these. 3 fronts are min21s, and 2 rears are min11s, with the x200. I think Richer Sounds were a bit reluctant to tell me they sold them, preferring I think to sell me off their min20/10 stock still in store. Still, my branch are very helpful though and I'm very pleased with the speakers/sub and think they sound excellent.

But: I need some advice on crossovers...

I did the Audyssey automatic speaker setup on my Onkyo 609 and surprisingly some of the fronts were set at either "full band" or 80 Hz - well below the rated 120 Hz. I notice on the small-print footnote on this website spec - cambridgeaudio.com/specifications.php?PID=1010&Title=Specifications - that they (CA) are recommending AVRs crossover at 140 Hz (perhaps their safety net for roll off).
Since the Onkyo 609 crossover setting values discreetly jump from 120 to 150 Hz, I chose the 150 Hz setting.

However, the Audyssey FAQ on this site and other posts seem to indicate that for general speaker/sub setups Audyssey should be more trusted than the spec rating for in-room conditions. Is this still the case with the minx21/11s though? (Or the min20/10s for that matter?)
I know manufacturers like to over-estimate freq response for marketing, but in this case the Audyssey setup would suggest they have been conservative, since it is lower crossover than the spec rating.
Someone on another thread has told me that I shouldn't worry about damaging the speaker with frequencies lower than the spec because the speaker has its own crossover built in for that reason.

So if Audyssey is to be believed - on frequency capability grounds at least - then there should be no harm in at least setting it to the lower end of the spec rating: 120 Hz?

What do you think though? Go with the Audyssey settings, go with 120 Hz, or go with 150 Hz?

Welcome! Sounds like you have the same exact setup as me except for I'm using the Min 10/20. After reading your 1st Post, I have some thoughts. I would ignore the Audyssey crossover setting and listen at a couple of different settings. Try 120 & 150 hz and hear what sounds best to you. If you like to listen real loud, I wouldn't set the crossover lower than 150...unless you can set it to 140 in your Onkyo. Whoever said that you can't damage one of these speakers is wrong. You can, and I have.

I do not think I'll be replacing my Min 10/20 anytime soon. Unless, some professional reviews would lead me to believe otherwise, I don't think there's a huge difference between the newer models. If anything, I will probably purchase a larger two-way speaker.
post #522 of 1868
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by taichi4 View Post

It would be interesting if the Minx system could allow a subwoofer crossover at 80 Hz, as going above 80 Hz (from what I understand) introduces some directionality to the subwoofer. This is one reason why I'm always interested in larger BMR's, with the ability to go deeper into the bass, so as to the preserve the non-directionality of the subwoofer.

I agree regarding a lower crossover point. I really don't think I would have had these speakers this long if it wasn't for using more than one Subwoofer. Larger drivers with a lower crossover point has more potential.

Quote:
Originally Posted by taichi4 View Post

(Have you noticed any difference between the Min20s and the Min21s?)

I think the only person that could answer this, if he can get his hands on some Min 21's, is Chris Marten's, who reviewed an S325 system.
post #523 of 1868
Quote:
Originally Posted by Perpendicular View Post

I agree regarding a lower crossover point. I really don't think I would have had these speakers this long if it wasn't for using more than one Subwoofer. Larger drivers with a lower crossover point has more potential.

I think the only person that could answer this, if he can get his hands on some Min 21's, is Chris Marten's, who reviewed an S325 system.

I was surprised by the What Hi-Fi review, which seemed to suggest that the system tested is suitable for rooms approximately 13' x 13'. This seems too conservative to me.

You're probably aware of this website:
http://cead.com/pages/10/akoustics/overview

Akoustiks does 4 inch BMRs, but only for in wall purposes.
post #524 of 1868
Thread Starter 
Makes one wonder if a 4" driver will be enough. I was thinking a 5" but no less than about 4.5". It would be great to see a speaker with a larger driver. Jim might be working on a speaker that will contain a 3.5" driver. We shall wait and see the results if this one will come to fruition.
post #525 of 1868
It occurred to me that I made a mistake in the last post. The BMR that CEAD and Akoustics are using is, indeed, a 4.5 inch model.

http://cead.com/pages/68/akoustics/cead_bmr_4.5#t
post #526 of 1868
Thread Starter 
The new What HiFi? review on the S215 system that includes the updated Min 11 has been Posted and placed on the front page.

Here is a quick link: http://www.whathifi.com/review/cambr...-minx-s215-new
post #527 of 1868
Hi,

The neodynium magnets on the Min 11 look way smaller (about 40+% by eyeballing it) than those on the Min10's - I am curious, will that not mean a less capable speaker? I just get the feeling that the Min 11's & 21's were redesigned in order to achieve cost saving measures (due to the price hike in the magnets) rather than to make an evolutionary better product?

Bazzy!
post #528 of 1868
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bazzy View Post

I just get the feeling that the Min 11's & 21's were redesigned in order to achieve cost saving measures (due to the price hike in the magnets) rather than to make an evolutionary better product?

You're probably right, but why not try to make a better driver, if cost saving measures force you to change the design a little? I have no problem with what they needed to do in order to save grace. And getting a better sounding speaker in the interim is always a plus.
post #529 of 1868
Quote:
Originally Posted by Perpendicular View Post

You're probably right, but why not try to make a better driver, if cost saving measures force you to change the design a little? I have no problem with what they needed to do in order to save grace. And getting a better sounding speaker in the interim is always a plus.

HI,

Well matey, the onus is now on you! I will await with baited breath to read about your views on the SQ between the two when you get the Min 11's/20's - as I have a feeling you surely will!

Bazzy!
post #530 of 1868
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bazzy View Post

HI,

Well matey, the onus is now on you! I will await with baited breath to read about your views on the SQ between the two when you get the Min 11's/20's - as I have a feeling you surely will!

I doubt it but thanks for the vote of confidence!
post #531 of 1868
Thread Starter 
Today, I finally got around to taking my L&R speakers down off my wall mounted Plasma and placed them on my old Gallo Micro floor stands. After calibration, I ended up having to lower the crossover setting back down to 150 hz because the system ended up sounding very thin at the recent 200 hz setting. I plan on leaving my surrounds wall mounted but now I'm thinking of purchasing one of the desk stands and moving the CC down to my entertainment rack. So far, they sound much better away from the wall.
post #532 of 1868
Quote:
Originally Posted by taichi4 View Post

(Have you noticed any difference between the Min20s and the Min21s?)

(
I couldn't really say myself, since I've never owned any min20s. The store demo I had of them doesn't really count; whilst they sounded ok, I was not blown away by the demo, giving me quite a few misgivings about getting any of the minx speakers. Good job I finally decided to ignore that demo.

Part of the problem was the inflexibility of how CA had the system set up in my Richer Sounds store: the min20s (as with the min10s) were poked through a specially made cardboard marketing cutout and so were far too close together. Whilst the track being played sounded good in some ways, quite distinctly showing off the sub's strong crossover bass, I had to ask the assistant why it sounded a bit distorted - as he pointed out, the speakers were not supposed to be that close together.
Also, the track he played was a track I knew well from playing on a non-subwoofer system, and maybe I just wasn't ready for hearing that track with such a strong hard bass quite different to what I was used to. That said, I've never found the bass on that track that hard on my min21 setup, so I think something was setup wrong on the demo - perhaps other than speakers being too close. Also he played the track I knew well off an ipod/iphone, so it could've been an inferior mp3 rip for all I know.

So no, I can't really give you a proper comparison, but let this be a caution to those demoing.

Later on in the month I asked the assistant (who genuinely seemed to have a min20/10 setup himself) what he thought of the sound difference between the min20/10 and the min 21/11? In a reverse way, he had only heard a demo of the new ones, at some convention, and in his opinion they did sound a bit better but he wasn't sure it was worth the extra money. This was only a brief demo though, and again, although he was honest about it and not pushy, it did also seem to me that he was preferring to get rid of his min20/10 stock on me. Later on when I phoned the store I got another opinion from one of his sales assistant underlings: he felt the min21/11s were like the min20/10s "on steroids" ! That's sales staff for you!
)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Perpendicular View Post

Welcome! Sounds like you have the same exact setup as me except for I'm using the Min 10/20. After reading your 1st Post, I have some thoughts. I would ignore the Audyssey crossover setting and listen at a couple of different settings. Try 120 & 150 hz and hear what sounds best to you. If you like to listen real loud, I wouldn't set the crossover lower than 150...unless you can set it to 140 in your Onkyo. Whoever said that you can't damage one of these speakers is wrong. You can, and I have.

Yes, thanks, I think I will go with this advice. I may give audyssey another run anyway and see what it comes up with, but I won't be going below 120 Hz - I've been quite happy with 150 Hz anyway. Great as Audyssey is, I wonder whether it has been made to take into consideration the safety aspect of speakers systems like this that require and work with higher crossover settings than is usual.
Also, as this is my first subwoofer and hifi separates experience I don't know whether this is the norm, but I find the lack of info on crossover recommendations in the speaker manuals disappointing. The response freq range they quote is one thing, but when forums like this tell you about Audyssey being the more trusted measure because it does it for actual in-room conditions, it can all get a little confusing. As for the 140 Hz quote I mention above, this is awkwardly found in a footnote to an unrelated point on their web spec page!
post #533 of 1868
Quote:
Originally Posted by Perpendicular View Post

I agree regarding a lower crossover point. I really don't think I would have had these speakers this long if it wasn't for using more than one Subwoofer. Larger drivers with a lower crossover point has more potential.

Personally I've found 1 subwoofer fine for my needs so far, but then I haven't been crossing-over at 200 Hz!
post #534 of 1868
Quote:
Originally Posted by psmithinthecity View Post


...Yes, thanks, I think I will go with this advice. I may give audyssey another run anyway and see what it comes up with, but I won't be going below 120 Hz - I've been quite happy with 150 Hz anyway. Great as Audyssey is, I wonder whether it has been made to take into consideration the safety aspect of speakers systems like this that require and work with higher crossover settings than is usual...

I would imagine that Audyssey is only measuring sonic output, rather than the actual capacity of the speakers. For it to do otherwise would entail information about the physical status of the speaker, overload, etc. being fed back into the system. That's why I "worried" about crossing over too low based on Audyssey's analysis.

By the way, I don't necessarily believe that a well designed, smaller magnet is disadvantageous in any way.

Your description of how the system is demoed is funny and disappointing at the same time. These aren't bookends, after all. But marketing can often be shortsighted, and focused on the wrong things.
post #535 of 1868
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by psmithinthecity View Post

Personally I've found 1 subwoofer fine for my needs so far, but then I haven't been crossing-over at 200 Hz!

My first Subwoofer was purchased in 1997. I never heard what having more than one Sub could do for the sound of my listening space until several months ago when I purchased two for my CA Minx speakers. Having said this, I would never go back to using one Sub unless it deemed necessary such as cost consideration. What I'm trying to say is that one sub is good but using two or more is much better. They help to smooth out room nodes, etc.

What potential Minx owners need to understand is that the Min 10/11 or 20/21 are in no way a replacement for even a good 2-way loudspeaker with a 5" or larger mid/bass driver. I still miss this type of speaker and are torn between having what I want and space consideration. Personally, I have been compromising myself with a speaker containing a 2 1/4" driver(s) and don't like that I have to set the crossover setting so high. I'd would rather be able to use a 50-80 hz setting with my Subs. If you are using these speakers, it is very important that you keep one (in my case, two) Subs along the front wall because of the higher (localizable) crossover setting. Also, although, they don't look as good, these speakers sound a lot better with their grills removed. Personally, I leave the grills on and lean towards the aesthetics because I do live with other people. If it was just me, the grills would be permanently removed.
post #536 of 1868
Wonder if you guys can help me with a bit of dilema as I have the enviable option of starting again with my HT after having been used to living in a large detached home where a two subwoofers a sixy inch TV and large Mission floorstanders were order of the day.

We moved to a new apartment (no mortgage -freedom) when my wife got seriously ill but 3 weeks after we moved in the entire contents were wiped out.

I have been into HT almost before people new what it was and years ago was a dedicated Linn guy with my Lp's (yep that old).

But now I am faced with finding a match that fits a room 7m x 3.5m without taking over the entire floor space. This means I have a good budget so far the insurers are talking about a Samsung Plasma the top model 8000 and a Yamaha Aventage RV amp.

I have been looking for a good sat system and y'day listen to the Minx 21's linked with the X300 on the Minx stands in Richer Sounds. I was blown away by the precission and engulfing sound when listening to both CD and Bluray demo's.

Nothing was set up ideally which made me more confident in the lack of accomplishment of these little gems. Just for giggles and fun I listened also Monitor Audios, Dali Zensor 3 surround systems and I was shocked when I found my choice in blind testing was actually the Mins.

The guy at Richer S was a diamond and spent almost 2 hours with me and the good lady and nothing was to much trouble. A breath of fresh air.

I had initially been thinking of getting the Dali Fazon 3 but hadn't actually heard them but with stands they stand in at around £1700 (I actually negotiated another dealer down to£1299 but stands are another £400 ouch)

Given my position some would say pretty good (at least as far HT is concerned) what would you guys do remember size does matter
but so does sound. Also family harmony!

Nice to be a part of this brilliant forum I have learned so much just reading what you guys have to say.
post #537 of 1868
Haven't heard but one of the other brands you mentioned, but I say your ears have answered the question for you. Also, I have been using some stands from Walmart that I got 5 or 6 years ago that cost about $30 for a pair. They are adjustable, still look every bit as good as the $400 ones, and have held up brilliantly. I think I posted a picture somewhere way back in this thread.
post #538 of 1868
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post21010708

Post 142 has a picture of my left and right speakers on stands.
post #539 of 1868
Quote:
Originally Posted by Perpendicular View Post

What potential Minx owners need to understand is that the Min 10/11 or 20/21 are in no way a replacement for even a good 2-way loudspeaker with a 5" or larger mid/bass driver. I still miss this type of speaker and are torn between having what I want and space consideration. Personally, I have been compromising myself with a speaker containing a 2 1/4" driver(s) and don't like that I have to set the crossover setting so high. I'd would rather be able to use a 50-80 hz setting with my Subs.

Hi Perpendicular!

You have been so passionate, enthusiastic & almost evangelical about how great the Minx speakers are & have gone to a lot of trouble & cost - up till now, I got the impression you were well over the moon & could not sing their praises high enough.

Having read the above, unless I am missing something it sound to me like, you you are now not that endeared by them after all, that you made a siginificant compromise & would much rather prefer something else if is was not fro space considerations?

There are plenty of very affordable speakers with 4"'-5" drivers & that you now state that even a good/affordable one would outclass the Minx leads to me think that over time, they might not be as great as you seemed to have thought & the all the hype makes them out to be? Just the impression I get from reading your post? I take what you say seriously as you have spent so much time with them & having explored them in depth - more so than anyone else that I know of!

You were also very enthusiastic about the Orbs but soon got tired of them - is the same thing happening here with the Minx's? Are you really unhappy with them now & feel, that you would replace them if it were not just for space considerations?

Bazzy!
post #540 of 1868
I would imagine that larger speakers would have the advantage in terms of the absolute sound levels that they can produce. Another advantage would be that larger systems would allow a lower crossover to a subwoofer. The advantage there is that woofers become increasingly directional above 80 Hz, which is an undesirable effect.

But the advantage that the Minx has over the larger speakers is in the coherency of the sound, and reviews have often remarked on the coherency and transparency of the soundstage. This is because using a single driver eliminates phasing effects which will invariably result when you have more than one driver, each mounted on a different axis... and radiating from those different axes. The dispersion characteristics of BMRs, like the Minx, are also superior.

Kef Uni Q Speakers, which mount tweeters inside of midranges, may also offer similar benefits, but BMRs have a simpler design, and often simplicity equals elegance, equals superior performance. Also, I would imagine that the Kef speakers employ crossovers, which BMRs do not require, and although sophisticated crossovers do exist, eliminating them can only help the sound.

This is why many of us on this thread are interested in larger BMRs, as they would address issues of sound level, and crossover point to a subwoofer.

In the meantime, current Minx systems offer the excellent coherency and dispersion characteristics of BMRs.
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