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The Plains Theater - Page 35

post #1021 of 1535
Just a thought.... The bulbs also impact the beam spread.. for example the 3" gimbals i used last time took GU10 bulbs that can be purchased with beam spreads from ~ 20 to 50 degress.
post #1022 of 1535
Thread Starter 
Spaceman, I built a backer box for the PJ outlet as well as another backer box and conduit for my LV going to the PJ (this post if you are interested).

As far as rope lights go, I haven't decided what type lights to use yet, so I'm not sure if I will need a dimmable outlet, or if I'm going to use LEDs with a transformer. This has been a real head scratcher for me! There doesn't look to be a good (cheap) solution. If you've got one up your sleeve, I'm open to suggestions on that front as well.

I actually hadn't considered floor mounting the boxes above the stage. That's a good idea. The only drawback I can see is the stage will be filled with sand, so I'd have to build a backer box of some kind. Not a big, though. I was planning to add the two side outlets as surface mount like the ones in this post above.

I've been going back and forth about LV wiring in the riser. I can see where a USB would be helpful for calibration, but I'm not sure about any CAT cabling. I ran the stuff all over my house for future network drops, but I've only used a couple for my server and a headless machine that I run. I should probably do it, though. I'm sure I'll regret it at some point or another if I don't

Columns are deep enough for an outlet, but I thought I would be better off trying to keep the 120 V away from speaker wiring as much as possible, and each of those columns will likely get a speaker at some point.

Thanks for the feedback!
post #1023 of 1535
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KNKKNK View Post

Just a thought.... The bulbs also impact the beam spread.. for example the 3" gimbals i used last time took GU10 bulbs that can be purchased with beam spreads from ~ 20 to 50 degress.

Didn't know that either. I assumed those accent bulbs were all the same. I generally try to make my trips to Lowes for bulbs very short smile.gif
post #1024 of 1535
Thread Starter 
It's amazing how things can come to a halt when it's time to get out the checkbook. I'm ready to order my bar diffusers and I need an 8" x 36" for my return. That should get my velocity down below 220 fpm. I three more for my riser, with a grand total for all four nearing $300. Compared to the costs of some of the other stuff, it's not a huge amount of money, but I can't help but thinking I could get a subwoofer instead of HVAC grilles for that smile.gif
post #1025 of 1535
Charge it to the game, big daddy!
post #1026 of 1535
Thread Starter 
LOL! biggrin.gif
post #1027 of 1535
Thread Starter 
I think we've just about finalized the lighting plan (I appreciate all the feedback). Now I'm down to two options for the front soffit. Originally, i was planning a curved front soffit, but now I'm leaning towards a squared off one that divides the ceiling up evenly.

Opinions?

Curved front



Straight front

post #1028 of 1535
In my case, I have made plans to hide mechanicals behind a proscenium - masking stuff, track lighting, absorption - so I need some space between the ceiling and the top of the screen for that all to go. So in my case, I'd want the ceiling to be a distinct architectural feature, allowing a proscenium to function independently, from an aesthetic point of view (though my ceiling isn't high enough to accommodate coffers like yours). If you have a design like that, I'd say the soffit should be straight and the proscenium curved. In the absence of a proper proscenium, I think a curved soffit could give an extra bit of visual interest that might be really nice. I'd want to consider carefully the extra work in building it, and see it rendered first, most likely, but I think it sounds like a worthwhile thing to consider, at the very least.

I'd also like to say that sometimes my visual style does not agree with many other people's visual style - so this may be bad advice. wink.gif
post #1029 of 1535
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HopefulFred View Post

.....
I'd also like to say that sometimes my visual style does not agree with many other people's visual style - so this may be bad advice. wink.gif

At least you have a visual style! I think mine's broken smile.gif
post #1030 of 1535
Thread Starter 
And a little render showing the curved soffit front.

post #1031 of 1535
My immediate reaction is "no" but I know that you can't see the way it mirrors the stage curve from this vantage.
post #1032 of 1535
Thread Starter 
Yeah. That's sort of what I'm thinking. Here's another one where the curve mirrors the front of the stage. It makes for those odd angled corners.

I think I'm leaning towards the square soffit as well.

post #1033 of 1535
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post

Yeah. That's sort of what I'm thinking. Here's another one where the curve mirrors the front of the stage. It makes for those odd angled corners.

I think I'm leaning towards the square soffit as well.


This was going to be my suggestion, but you already have it covered. I personally think the square would look...well....square. The curved the way you have presented adds a nice look IMHO.
post #1034 of 1535
I curved my soffit to match the stage (actually, I curved the backside), and I like it.

I think everybody will be looking forward, so the added effort for the curve would be a nice touch that everybody will see.

Tim
post #1035 of 1535
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Tim View Post

I curved my soffit to match the stage (actually, I curved the backside), and I like it.

I think everybody will be looking forward, so the added effort for the curve would be a nice touch that everybody will see.

Tim

I'm not following the "curved the backside" piece... pics?
post #1036 of 1535
Quote:
Originally Posted by xjagox View Post

I'm not following the "curved the backside" piece... pics?

DSC_0075.JPG
post #1037 of 1535
Thread Starter 
Well, two votes for curved, and 1-1/2 votes for straight. I only count my vote as 1/2 since I don't know what I'm doing anyway smile.gif

Mr. Tim's soffit gets around an issue (quite cleverly, I might add) that I would have with going with a curved front soffit. I'm planning to use a crown molding to hide my rope light. I thought the angled molding might give me a little more light on the ceiling. However, trying to bend a crown molding is not as simple as bending a straight board. You can get rubber moldings, but they come with their own issues, and they're higher than giraffe ears.


I suppose I need to make a decision about rope lighting so that I can do some testing with it. If it turns out the crown doesn't really buy me anything, then maybe I can go with a flat molding. If only I could find a color changing LED tape light that I can control with a Grafik Eye.........
post #1038 of 1535
Thread Starter 
I believe I have reached a point that I actually have to make some decisions. I would like to use a solid color LED tape light so that I can dim them with a Lutron product. If I do that, the. I need to decide on colors for the theater. I've been putting this off since the beginning, because I really am hopeless with that sort of thing. Whenever I start this exercise, I always start by looking and blues, grays, and blacks because it would go with the colors in our house. But I can't find a set of colors that I like. It always seems to lack that eye catching characteristic, and I end up right back at dark red and black.

I may be overly limiting myself because I'm looking at the FR701 range of AT fabrics. Their Anchorage line is much more saturated, but it's also less transparent, and I have zero information about how that will impact acoustic treatments covered with it.

EDIT: I just looked at my original quote for acoustic treatments from D.E., and it lists Anchorage, which I assume is the fabric. That would certainly open the possibilities quite a bit. There are a couple blues that I like, but I would need to find another color to go with it........
Edited by J_P_A - 7/28/13 at 8:47am
post #1039 of 1535
I don't have charts and data to support my claim, but I don't think you should let the varying AT status of the anchorage line worry you. Here's my argument: if you limit the role of fabric to covering treatment, think of the fabric as an extension of the treatment - since that is how they will function. So what's the difference between using FR701 and Anchorage?

Here's the absorption data for FR701:


FR701 is nearly perfectly AT across the range of meaningful frequencies. Yes, it will generate reflections above 1000Hz - so treble reflects some - it's still going to transmit almost all of the energy.

Here's the absorption data for Anchorage:


Anchorage is less transparent, clearly. We see the there is a small amount of energy that will be reflected at all frequencies, but it's fairly linear across the same range of frequencies.

I'm going to launch into an argument here that appears to be supported by numbers - but I have no real idea if it's appropriate to use the data this way.

If you designed a theoretical absorber that would give an absorption coefficient of .7 - you could cover it will FR701 and expect that the coefficient is unchanged for frequencies below 1000Hz, and diminished by a factor of .9 to .8 above that. .7 diminished by .9 leaves .63, or diminished by .8 gives .54. This, is still good absorption. Especially considering that the theoretical absorber you design will probably have the opposite curve and actually be increasing in coefficient above 1000Hz, this is probably close to ideal. How does this change if you cover it in Anchorage? Well, since Anchorage is linear across the same range of frequencies, it will just act to bring the coefficient of your theoretical absorber down from .7 to .6 or so from the get-go. Then at ranges above 1000 Hz, we still see the same auto-correct to linear (as far as we can tell).

Given the ease with which a room covered in panels can be over-damped - especially at higher frequencies - I think this is at worst not a problem, and at best, an improvement is overall liveliness. Again, do I know what I'm talking about here? No, not really. But I think this is a fairly sound argument. Keep in mind that even in small rooms where reflected sound contributes significantly to overall tone, direct sound will probably still be more significant. (We'd have to know the critical distance in your room - which will depend on the amount of absorption as well as your distance from the loudspeakers - to compare the direct and reflected sound levels - and we don't have that data and I can't find good approximations right now).

All that brings me to my question: independent of acoustics - what do you want the room to look like? smile.gif
post #1040 of 1535
Thread Starter 
We don't call you HelpFul Fred around these parts for nothing smile.gif I agree with your analysis of the impacts resulting from the absorption characteristics of the two fabrics. I think it would be a wash between the two, and would likely be inaudible except for those that can hear the differences between cable types. However, I wonder what the impacts would be for an engineered panel that provides diffusion as well? I would assume negligible, at least for the reflected energy. There's a thread floating around here on AVS where someone measured the difference between FR701 and the Anchorage fabric in front of their mains, and there was a noticeable difference. Obviously that can be dealt with through EQ, but that thread has thread has given me pause. I'm way out of my area of expertise here, as I have no background on what is significant and what is not.

Again, my gut feeling is that there will be little to no difference between the fabrics, but it's one of those nagging worries.

As far as your last question, I really have no idea!?! I like the art deco styles, and I'm envious of your Steam Punk style, but I don't know that I'm able to pull off either of those. I think I would either end up under doing it, or over doing it and have a theater akin to the Mona Lisa with a circus in the background. With that in mind, I've really focused on Sandman's theater and more recently Mario's theater. I always come back to the black and red theme, but it's been done several times, and I'm afraid it wouldn't go well with the rest of my house. I also really like blues and grays, but it's easy for that color palette to look bland. I really like the Anchorage Cobalt fabric (see the image, although the fabric sample doesn't look so "neon" in person), but I have no idea what other colors to pair with it. I would guess a dark gray, but that doesn't give much contrast between the fabric and the trim in a dimmed (not dark) room. I think it would all end up looking black.



I truly am hopeless when it comes to choosing colors and design points. There are no numbers I can put in a spreadsheet or apply an algorithm to and come up with an answer. smile.gif
post #1041 of 1535
I've started replying to you post two or three times now, and I keep deleting it. I'm not equipped to develop a cogent argument one way or the other, but I feel like I could come to comfortable conclusions for myself based mostly on my own priorities and my intuition. Obviously I have no experience is well designed and treated rooms, so my intuition may be entirely useless.

My intuition is that through this central couple octaves, from around Schroeder frequency to 3 or 4kHz, the BAD panels and Q-perf panels are the most efficient and effective products in existence in terms of scattering and absorption. They should do an exceptional job of making specular reflections vanish without dissipating all the energy. They are designed and sold (I believe) with fabric most similar to FR701. Substituting Anchorage would increase the amount of energy reflected in a specular way. Since Anchorage is gereally flat in its absorption, we should assume that the reflection it produces is also frequency independent - which is a good thing. So, if a maximized BAD panel can reduce the gain of a reflection relative to perfect specular by -25dB (I've made up that number, but I think it should be ball-park) I'd guess that a BAD panel covered in Anchorage should be good for between -20dB and -22dB. That's my intuition and for my own purposes that would be entirely adequate to make me comfortable in choosing whatever made the room look the way I wanted.

If that's persuasive to you, then either I have some land 20 miles east of Miami to sell you, or you and I are of the same mind - which brings us back to "what do you want the room to look like?" smile.gif

I have trouble building color groups, but luckily paint manufacturers do that for you. Consider something like this.

Over a year ago, you were fiddling with coffer designs and wood staining tones. TMcG said you should pick your carpet first. Did you do that?
post #1042 of 1535
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post

It's amazing how things can come to a halt when it's time to get out the checkbook. I'm ready to order my bar diffusers and I need an 8" x 36" for my return. That should get my velocity down below 220 fpm. I three more for my riser, with a grand total for all four nearing $300. Compared to the costs of some of the other stuff, it's not a huge amount of money, but I can't help but thinking I could get a subwoofer instead of HVAC grilles for that smile.gif

Seems to me you've found a bargain...........I was quoted $150 for each bar diffuser.

Well, I decided I preferred wood and built my own...............looks better and with 1/2 slots........quiet as a church mouse.
post #1043 of 1535
Im with Hopefulfred, even if the fabric diminishes the upper octave performance of your acoustic treatments they will still be exponentially more effective up top. Especially compared to the last couple octaves above the schroeder frequency of the room where most acoustic treatments do well to absorb 60% of incident energy.

Furthermore, as he stated, that upper sparkle is easily extinguished when trying to tackle the midbass and midrange issues, so a little reflectivity in the fabric in the upper octaves is not a deal breaker IMO. If this were speaker cloth, it would be more important.

Our perception of 15khz is not very directional, its more a sensation than a directional sound. A little excess energy in this range adds to spaciousness. However 1-2khz is very localizable and specular reflections of this Frequency range should be diffused effectively or absorbed. Especially in the primary reflections of the mains(LCR).

Just my opinion though, and its worth what i charge for it!!!!

Lookin good in here man, keep it up!
post #1044 of 1535
Thread Starter 
@ H.T. and @ NicksHitachi, you guys have me convinced! With so little experience in acoustics, I'm always hesitant to go with my gut. But I'm glad to get to look at the Anchorage line of fabrics. They're much nicer looking. I'll probably stick with the FR701 up front and in front of the surrounds.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HopefulFred View Post

.............I have trouble building color groups, but luckily paint manufacturers do that for you. Consider something like this.

Over a year ago, you were fiddling with coffer designs and wood staining tones. TMcG said you should pick your carpet first. Did you do that?

I sort of picked a carpet. I like the carpet Damelon used in his theater. It's black, and not as black smile.gif So I think it falls into the monochrome category. Even if I don't get that pattern, I'm still looking at black and gray. As far as the wood goes, I've decided to go with painted. After years in sub divisions where every house looks just like the next, I'm tired of browns/contractor beiges in pretty much all its forms. I liked the idea of the stained wood, but in the end, I decided it was too much brown.

How did you find the SW site with that set of colors? That's a pretty wild coincidence that they have a color pallet picked out just for your theater smile.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by doublewing11 View Post

Seems to me you've found a bargain...........I was quoted $150 for each bar diffuser.

Well, I decided I preferred wood and built my own...............looks better and with 1/2 slots........quiet as a church mouse.

Here's the site with the bar diffusors. I think BIG posted this site originally, but they're a lot cheaper than the Nailor diffusors.


Here's a couple of the fabrics we're looking at. What do you guys think? Sorry the photos are so dark, but this is as close as I can get to the actual fabric colors.

The blues. The color on the far left is actually a dark gray. It's a really horrible picture, but if I use a flash it changes the color of the fabric drastically.



THE red smile.gif

post #1045 of 1535
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post

I believe I have reached a point that I actually have to make some decisions. I would like to use a solid color LED tape light so that I can dim them with a Lutron product.

Are you going to be using another control system in the room (iRule, etc.)? If so, you can probably install RGB LED strips that could be dimmed/color changed by your control system outside of the Grafik Eye.
post #1046 of 1535
Thread Starter 
I would like to control everything from a universal remote. I used a iPad/iPhone app to control our apple TV for a while, and realized that it was much less efficient than using a remote with physical buttons.I think I can control everything in the theater with macros. The heavy lifting for the dimming would be handled by the dimmers, obviously turning on the PJ, AVR, setting inputs, all that stuff can be done with a programmable remote, even powered A-lens slide and automated masking.

I guess my question would be, what is the advantage to using iRule? I really haven't researched it a great deal, but I'm certainly open to using it if it will simplify things.
post #1047 of 1535
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post

I would like to control everything from a universal remote. I used a iPad/iPhone app to control our apple TV for a while, and realized that it was much less efficient than using a remote with physical buttons.I think I can control everything in the theater with macros. The heavy lifting for the dimming would be handled by the dimmers, obviously turning on the PJ, AVR, setting inputs, all that stuff can be done with a programmable remote, even powered A-lens slide and automated masking.

I guess my question would be, what is the advantage to using iRule? I really haven't researched it a great deal, but I'm certainly open to using it if it will simplify things.

I have talked to people that really like irule and it will do everything in you list but when i asked them how hard it was to setup they all have said it is pretty big learning curve but i think there exact words was it is a pain the arse.
I am actually using cinemar to do the heavy lifting for automating the lighting the lighting scenes and blinds and also for starting the movies. I did not want to have a big ipad in lap or near by when watching a movie so for pausing or volume and setting all inputs like if i want to watch a blu-ray or something from the Dune player i have the Harmony 1100 and the RF receiver and i just use that just for getting everything turned on and set to the proper inputs. basically when we watch i movie i just hit one button on the Harmony 1100 and while the projector is coming up i use cinemar DVD lobby to choose the movie and then just hit play and take my seat with the harmony in hand for volume control or pausing. I am not 100% sure but if your iPad goes to sleep when you reopen it don't you have to relaunch the irule app?
post #1048 of 1535
Quote:
Originally Posted by snickers1 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post

I would like to control everything from a universal remote. I used a iPad/iPhone app to control our apple TV for a while, and realized that it was much less efficient than using a remote with physical buttons.I think I can control everything in the theater with macros. The heavy lifting for the dimming would be handled by the dimmers, obviously turning on the PJ, AVR, setting inputs, all that stuff can be done with a programmable remote, even powered A-lens slide and automated masking.

I guess my question would be, what is the advantage to using iRule? I really haven't researched it a great deal, but I'm certainly open to using it if it will simplify things.

I have talked to people that really like irule and it will do everything in you list but when i asked them how hard it was to setup they all have said it is pretty big learning curve but i think there exact words was it is a pain the arse.
I am actually using cinemar to do the heavy lifting for automating the lighting the lighting scenes and blinds and also for starting the movies. I did not want to have a big ipad in lap or near by when watching a movie so for pausing or volume and setting all inputs like if i want to watch a blu-ray or something from the Dune player i have the Harmony 1100 and the RF receiver and i just use that just for getting everything turned on and set to the proper inputs. basically when we watch i movie i just hit one button on the Harmony 1100 and while the projector is coming up i use cinemar DVD lobby to choose the movie and then just hit play and take my seat with the harmony in hand for volume control or pausing. I am not 100% sure but if your iPad goes to sleep when you reopen it don't you have to relaunch the irule app?

I use Irule and love it... However, you do have to put in the time to figure out how the builder interface works but once you cross that hurdle the interface is completely customizable. Your remote is completely yours tailored to your theater from backgrounds, buttons, images, pop up messages, labels, anything you can imagine.

The screen dims after a while of inactivity but doesn't lock the screen, all you do is touch the dimmed screen and it lights back up. You can set it to lock and go completely dark if you want but it dims enought that I leave it launched.

One of my fav features is I have Directv favorites pages that query the directv box for whats playing, and the episode and titles show up on the ipad above the channel icons so i don't even have to check the guide on screen I can see whats on my favs on the ipad.

I use a cupholder ipad mount which is pretty much necessary like you said if you don't want to fumble for the ipad.

I have a Harmony 890 and a Harmony One that are collecting dust.... Irule also lets you create up to 5 handsets so I have one on my phone too which can control the theater or the living room if I want.

Did I mention I like Irule? biggrin.gif
post #1049 of 1535
I guess my point was less about iRule specifically, but more directly that if you have some device (iRule, universal remote, crestron, etc.) handling your overall controls and sending commands to the Grafik Eye to change scenes- you could have that same device control an RGB strip outside the confines of the GE as part of your control logic or macros.
post #1050 of 1535
Thread Starter 
Good points regarding iRule. My only real complaint about a control scheme that's not remote based is having to look down to do anything. With a (well laid out) remote, I can do everything from change channels, change the volume, pull up the guide, switch from watching TV to playing a game, to watching a movie on our Dune player, all without having to look down at the remote. With a tablet based interface, I need to look down at it for most changes. To change the volume I need to make sure I have it turned correctly, or at least give it time to rotate the screen. Perhaps it has gotten much better compared to what I've used. I may need to take another look into it. I certainly like the idea of a home automation controller that it completely user customizable!

xjagox, I think you are correct that I could use something other than a GE to control the lights. If nothing else I can just learn the codes from the included remote and my universal to transmit them. Good idea.
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