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The Plains Theater - Page 44

post #1291 of 1535
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post

Thoughts?
Are you taking requests? I'd like partitions to block dust at the lens, removable bottom, enough height to use a ceiling mount inside it (instead of using the box as a shelf), intake near the front and powered exhaust near the rear.

I think it's Moggie's that I keep thinking about in my head, because of the latches for the opening. Can't remember for sure. (Edit: it is Moggie's I was thinking of. http://www.avsforum.com/t/1117148/saga-of-the-old-vic/840#post_20653632 )
Edited by HopefulFred - 9/13/13 at 7:15am
post #1292 of 1535
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HopefulFred View Post

My plan is to steal yours!

Well, I'm planning to use solid gold for the housing, probably diamond accents, and I'm leaning towards a sapphire lens.......

Who am I kidding, it'll probably be OSB, plexiglass, and I'll try to find my wife's Bedazzler smile.gif

In all seriousness, I'm a little worried about weight. I'm (pretty) sure I added at least one extra clip on each piece of channel, but now that I think about how big this box will be, I'm a little concerned. Fortunately, fan noise is generally high frequency, so I don't think mass will be a concern as long as I put plenty of absorption in the box. So far I think the key design elements are

  • Light weight - I want to keep it as light as possible. Not sure what material to use here.
  • Absorption - box needs to be large enough to house plenty of absorption
  • Size - This thing is shaping up to be large! My rough pass above has it at 3'x3'x1'. That will likely grow to accomodate the glass, the lens, the slide, and my cabling.
  • Ducting - Internal "ducts" need to be large enough to allow adequate flow
  • Ventilation - Put the vents at opposite end from the PJ inlet and exhaust. I'm considering an open vent for the box inlet and two 70mm fans at the box exhaust.
  • Access - I need to be able to access everything. I'm thinking ceiling mount the PJ and Lens and have the bottom of the box swing open.
  • Aesthetics - I'd like for it to look nice.
  • Glass - Obviously I will need a window, but Edmunds has the glass for around $35 I believe.

I find it helpful to write down my list of design constraints sometimes. We'll see if that gets us anywhere.
post #1293 of 1535
Why air flow opposite the projector's normal flow? (I'm reading that right, aren't I?)
post #1294 of 1535
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HopefulFred View Post

Are you taking requests? I'd like partitions to block dust at the lens, removable bottom, enough height to use a ceiling mount inside it (instead of using the box as a shelf), intake near the front and powered exhaust near the rear.

I think it's Moggie's that I keep thinking about in my head, because of the latches for the opening. Can't remember for sure. (Maybe I can find link later.)

Which PJ are you planning to use? The Epson has both the supply and return at the front, so I was thinking of putting the box's supply and return at the opposite end to minimize noise getting out. Also, my thought was that by building an entirely enclosed box, and using a porthole glass, I should be able to prevent any issues with dust on the lens.
post #1295 of 1535
I haven't settled, but leaning to JVC. I hate dynamic iris, and sometimes see DLP rainbows, plus i need power zoom and shift. Panasonic would probably be a good choice, but I'm kind of a black level fiend.
post #1296 of 1535
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post

So far I think the key design elements are
  • Light weight - I want to keep it as light as possible. Not sure what material to use here.
  • Absorption - box needs to be large enough to house plenty of absorption
  • Size - This thing is shaping up to be large! My rough pass above has it at 3'x3'x1'. That will likely grow to accomodate the glass, the lens, the slide, and my cabling.
  • Ducting - Internal "ducts" need to be large enough to allow adequate flow
  • Ventilation - Put the vents at opposite end from the PJ inlet and exhaust. I'm considering an open vent for the box inlet and two 70mm fans at the box exhaust.
  • Access - I need to be able to access everything. I'm thinking ceiling mount the PJ and Lens and have the bottom of the box swing open.
  • Aesthetics - I'd like for it to look nice.
  • Glass - Obviously I will need a window, but Edmunds has the glass for around $35 I believe.

That's why I encouraged you to use the bump out in the rear as a small projector room, if possible.

The room itself becomes the hushbox and a lot of the challenges you're working through now would go away or become much easier.

A high ratio long throw usually has more CR and less distortions, at the expense of brightness. The extra distortion from short throw is especially significant if you're going to use an a-lens, and even more so if you're not buying the top of the model. More pros than cons, I think, to using a PJ booth vs hushbox... but it also depends on the space you have and the overall design, so maybe it wasn't feasible in your case.
post #1297 of 1535
Quote:
Originally Posted by HopefulFred View Post

I haven't settled, but leaning to JVC. I hate dynamic iris, and sometimes see DLP rainbows, plus i need power zoom and shift. Panasonic would probably be a good choice, but I'm kind of a black level fiend.

I think the JVC's throw a great looking picture for the money. Some people complain about the softer look & motion blur, but it's never bothered me. I just wish they had a brighter model with interchangeable lenses like they used to have. They have a bunch of models under $10k and then the price jumps to six figures for more brightness.
post #1298 of 1535
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rabident View Post

That's why I encouraged you to use the bump out in the rear as a small projector room, if possible.

The room itself becomes the hushbox and a lot of the challenges you're working through now would go away or become much easier.

A high ratio long throw usually has more CR and less distortions, at the expense of brightness. The extra distortion from short throw is especially significant if you're going to use an a-lens, and even more so if you're not buying the top of the model. More pros than cons, I think, to using a PJ booth vs hushbox... but it also depends on the space you have and the overall design, so maybe it wasn't feasible in your case.

You had me excited about this! I couldn't remember why I had ruled this out once I had my A-lens. I took a look at the Panamorph throw ratio chart and the little note at the bottom rained on my parade. The UH480 has a 20' throw limit without corrective optics. From what I understand, those optics have to be put in during the lens assembly, so it's not like adding a pair of glasses.

After that, it just becomes a budgetary constraint, unfortunately. I completely agree that putting my PJ in that area in the back would be ideal. I just don't think I can afford the equipment that it would take.
post #1299 of 1535
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HopefulFred View Post

I haven't settled, but leaning to JVC. I hate dynamic iris, and sometimes see DLP rainbows, plus i need power zoom and shift. Panasonic would probably be a good choice, but I'm kind of a black level fiend.

Looks like the hushbox layout for a JVC will be different. I looked at the first one I came to (DLA-X30 I beileve), and it looks like the inlet is in the back and the exhaust is in the front. However, since you are planning to mount your PJ in your rear soffit, I think could build a large box as well, and just make sure you move enough air in and out to evacuate the heat. Then just let the JVC's fans do their job with the air inside the box. That way you don't have to worry about internal ducting or any business like that.
post #1300 of 1535
Thread Starter 
Here's another rough hush box design, but thought out a little more.




I made the inner box (the one around the PJ) the size it will need to be to accommodate the location of my outlet and my LV conduit. The outside box I just added 2" past the slide and then made it symmetric.

The good

  • I think this would allow plenty of air flow. Nothing scientific as I don't have cfm specs for the 6020, but the ducts are 7x12, so that should be more than enough.
  • I think 8" at the back should be more than enough space to handle connections
  • Plenty of space to add duct liner for sound deadening


The bad

  • This would be a pretty big box on the ceiling. just over 3.5' square.
  • Not sure about the weight.


I should be able to pick up a few inches in each dimension once I get the parts in hand and actually cut out my receptacle and LV box. I'll need to see how the slide is shifted with respect to the PJ. I'll also need finalized installed heights for everything so I'll know just how deep the box will need to be (depth from ceiling to bottom of hush box).

I should mention that I'm not trying to isolate the inlet and exhaust so much as just provide cool air in the cavity where the PJ is. I'm expecting the PJ's fans to do the cooling work.


Any suggestions on design tweaks?
post #1301 of 1535
There's way more detail and thought in that design than I had considered. What's the source of air for the inlet and where does the exhaust go? Does it need a filter?

I'm sure you'll be able to pare it down a good bit, but even like this I don't think I'd worry much about the weight. Can't you use thin plywood for most of it?
post #1302 of 1535
Thread Starter 
Because it's out in the center of the room, the inlet and exhaust will just open into the room. Ill be using room air to cool it. Not ideal, but I just dont have the head room to run a duct over there. I'm hoping the duct liner will be enough to damp out the fan noise before it can get to the vents.

It would be simple to add a filter over the vents, and I will likely do that, but I don't think it's strictly necessary since I'll be using a porthole glass in front of the lens. It shouldn't get any more dust in it than it would if it was just hanging from the ceiling on a normal mount. Or am I missing something here? There's precious little info on building hush boxes available.

And yes, I'm planning for thin plywood at the moment. I'm not sure how to finish it, but that's a problem for another day smile.gif
post #1303 of 1535
Any time you force-ventilate anything, you're going to have a higher potential amount of dust than if the projector was in open space, so an incoming filter is suggested.

I have concerns about short-circuiting your intake and exhaust because of their close proximity, meaning the intake will be drawing in warmer exhaust. However, I think you can eliminate the entire back of your current box, making the back wall behind the projector the new rear wall of the box. The fan array could slide forward, closer to the front of the projector to increase draw and shoot the exhaust straight out toward a new aperture in the back. The intake would also draw straight from a new aperture on the other side, providing the needed distance between the two openings. Make sense?

And personally I don't think you need anywhere near TWO 70mm fans. The fan only needs to match or exceed the maximum CFM of the exhaust fan on the projector. I know we don't know the Epson's exhaust fan CFM, but it is reasonable to assume that just one of these fans would outpace the exhaust fan. This will probably allow you to thin the height of the overall assembly.

The last question I had is how you are planning for projector access down the road....is this a small hatch from underneath?
post #1304 of 1535
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post

Here's another rough hush box design, but thought out a little more.




I made the inner box (the one around the PJ) the size it will need to be to accommodate the location of my outlet and my LV conduit. The outside box I just added 2" past the slide and then made it symmetric.

The good

  • I think this would allow plenty of air flow. Nothing scientific as I don't have cfm specs for the 6020, but the ducts are 7x12, so that should be more than enough.
  • I think 8" at the back should be more than enough space to handle connections
  • Plenty of space to add duct liner for sound deadening


The bad

  • This would be a pretty big box on the ceiling. just over 3.5' square.
  • Not sure about the weight.


I should be able to pick up a few inches in each dimension once I get the parts in hand and actually cut out my receptacle and LV box. I'll need to see how the slide is shifted with respect to the PJ. I'll also need finalized installed heights for everything so I'll know just how deep the box will need to be (depth from ceiling to bottom of hush box).

I should mention that I'm not trying to isolate the inlet and exhaust so much as just provide cool air in the cavity where the PJ is. I'm expecting the PJ's fans to do the cooling work.


Any suggestions on design tweaks?

Wow...........quite the "hush box" plan...........very elaborate!

Thought I was annal retentive to details..................you make me look infantile! smile.gif

What really perplexes me......................you go through all this trouble to lower the noise floor, yet big dynamics in room create an environment for tinnitus to fester.........

Right now as I speak..........with all the movies I've been watching......my ears are ringing (must be due to old age) and I'm thinking to myself............how loud is my projector. So what do I do? I turn on the projector and for the life of me I can't hear it!!!

I wonder if that's due to all that "pink" noise from yesterday? Well, my inner signal to noise ratio has most definitely gone downhill!

Carry on..................biggrin.gif
post #1305 of 1535
Thread Starter 
Good points, TMcG. I added the extra cavity in the back to give me one more bend in the "duct" to help absorb sound. If I get enough sound deadening with the straight shot, then it would certainly help with the size of the box. Here's a new render.



I took a quick look at quiet 70 mm fans, and the first few I came across that are quiet only move about 20 cfm. I'm sure I can find fans that move a little more, but that's right at the edge of where I'd be comfortable. If you assume the 375W lamp in the epson is roughly equivalent to a person from a heat dissipation standpoint, then the rule of thumb is about 15 cfm of cooled air. I'll be working with room air, so I was thinking a little extra capacity would be helpful. I'll look into more fans and see what I come across.

I was planning for the entire bottom panel to be hinged, although if I go with a lightweight material like 1/4" ply, I may need to consider something other than a hinged connection. That might stress such a thin structure too much. I'm open to suggestions for lightweight materials for this thing!

Double, rest assured that I will test this PJ on high to see just how loud it is before I go to all the trouble of building a hushbox. One of the first things I discovered while playing around with REW a few nights ago is my hearing loss starts at around 15 kHz. It got a lot harder to hear once I turned up the signal generator to 15 kHz, but when I turned it off, I could still hear it. That tone sure woke up my tinnitus. I could hear that buzzing for probably another hour afterwards. It's interesting you mention it, though. When I close the door to my theater, my tinnitus becomes suddenly audible.
post #1306 of 1535
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post


Double, rest assured that I will test this PJ on high to see just how loud it is before I go to all the trouble of building a hushbox. One of the first things I discovered while playing around with REW a few nights ago is my hearing loss starts at around 15 kHz. It got a lot harder to hear once I turned up the signal generator to 15 kHz, but when I turned it off, I could still hear it. That tone sure woke up my tinnitus. I could hear that buzzing for probably another hour afterwards. It's interesting you mention it, though. When I close the door to my theater, my tinnitus becomes suddenly audible.

Isn't that the truth! Half joking aside................................when I shut the door to the room, my SPL reader measures 24-25 db's......................quiet in laymen terms. Yet in reality, my ringing in my ears is quite annoying to say the least!

We're all so used to background noises it becomes close to an "out of body" experience when closing the door behind you!!! I can honestly say I do hear my heart beat.............or at the very least rushing of blood into my inner ear canal! biggrin.gif

So................what does that mean in the grand scheme of things? If I can't hear my projector at low setting..................guess my noise floor is ok........ie. no hush box required. wink.gif
post #1307 of 1535
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post

If you assume the 375W lamp in the epson is roughly equivalent to a person from a heat dissipation standpoint, then the rule of thumb is about 15 cfm of cooled air. I'll be working with room air, so I was thinking a little extra capacity would be helpful.
Is this rule of thumb intended to maintain temperature? given how much cooler air? is maintaining temperature a necessary goal?
post #1308 of 1535
Lying in bed last night, I was thinking about how to build access into a hush box. I haven't made any cool diagrams or anything, but here's the idea in a nutshell:

Build the cabinet as a bowl - requires no hinges or anything. Then get some kind of cleat fastened to the ceiling and make matching holes in the cleats and in the edges of the "bowl." Then all you need in a clevis pin (or several) of some sort to pin it all together. Some neoprene or foam on the edges to keep it from rattling, and you're good to go. Does that make sense? There would be more details in the design (sizes and positional relationships, etc. to ensure good support and that you don'w scuff or gouge the ceiling with it - practical stuff like that, but it's all doable if you think it through (trust me, lying in bed, you can come up with a lot of possibilities).
post #1309 of 1535
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by doublewing11 View Post

.........

So................what does that mean in the grand scheme of things? If I can't hear my projector at low setting..................guess my noise floor is ok........ie. no hush box required. wink.gif

That's the rub for me, unfortunately. Because I'm leaning towards going with a 14' screen, I don't think running the PJ in eco is really going to be an option smile.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by HopefulFred View Post

Is this rule of thumb intended to maintain temperature? given how much cooler air? is maintaining temperature a necessary goal?

I'm not sure, HF. That rule of thumb, to the best of my knowledge, is used for HVAC loading. Sort of like the old way of calculating HVAC requirements based on the square footage. In this case, I think just a balanced air flow is the goal. I want to make sure I keep the intake air at room temp. I'm not really concerned about the exhaust air, but not knowing the PJ fan spec, I can't be sure how much air I need to move to prevent the PJ from recirculating it's own exhaust because the air in the hush box is not moving fast enough.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HopefulFred View Post

Lying in bed last night, I was thinking about how to build access into a hush box. I haven't made any cool diagrams or anything, but here's the idea in a nutshell:

Build the cabinet as a bowl - requires no hinges or anything. Then get some kind of cleat fastened to the ceiling and make matching holes in the cleats and in the edges of the "bowl." Then all you need in a clevis pin (or several) of some sort to pin it all together. Some neoprene or foam on the edges to keep it from rattling, and you're good to go. Does that make sense? There would be more details in the design (sizes and positional relationships, etc. to ensure good support and that you don'w scuff or gouge the ceiling with it - practical stuff like that, but it's all doable if you think it through (trust me, lying in bed, you can come up with a lot of possibilities).

That's a good idea! The only drawback that comes to mind is the weight. Trying to hold the entire assembly up while I get the pins in place, all the while making sure I don't bang the lens or slide. I've got to run now, but I'm going to chew on this a bit more.
post #1310 of 1535
Quote:
Originally Posted by HopefulFred View Post

Lying in bed last night, I was thinking about how to build access into a hush box. I haven't made any cool diagrams or anything, but here's the idea in a nutshell:

Build the cabinet as a bowl - requires no hinges or anything. Then get some kind of cleat fastened to the ceiling and make matching holes in the cleats and in the edges of the "bowl." Then all you need in a clevis pin (or several) of some sort to pin it all together. Some neoprene or foam on the edges to keep it from rattling, and you're good to go. Does that make sense? There would be more details in the design (sizes and positional relationships, etc. to ensure good support and that you don'w scuff or gouge the ceiling with it - practical stuff like that, but it's all doable if you think it through (trust me, lying in bed, you can come up with a lot of possibilities).

post #1311 of 1535
In addition to intake and exhaust locations. Also be aware of filter location as you will need to clean that probably every 100Hrs and with the A-lens etc I'm sure you don't want to have to do a full setup every 100Hrs.

Don't ask me how I know this...... rolleyes.gif
post #1312 of 1535
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NicksHitachi View Post

In addition to intake and exhaust locations. Also be aware of filter location as you will need to clean that probably every 100Hrs and with the A-lens etc I'm sure you don't want to have to do a full setup every 100Hrs.

Don't ask me how I know this...... rolleyes.gif

Good point! I checked the 6020 manual, and the filter is on the inlet side (should have been obvious, right?). That's opposite the side where I think the slide will go. So, unless the slide gets in the way, we should be good on replacing the filter. It would be odd for the 6020 not to have considered this, though. One of its selling points is it's built in compatibility with A-lenses. It wouldn't be the first time something like that got overlooked, though.

Thanks for the heads up there.
post #1313 of 1535
Thread Starter 
A little more progress to report. I got the first layer of decking on the stage. This doesn't look like much progress, but it sure was a lot of work.

First I decided I wasn't happy with the first step being a different height than the second step. So, out it came!



When I framed it back up I decided to go with regular 1/4" ply instead of the luan that I used last time to make the curve. I think the original stuff was probably OK, but the ply is a little stiffer, which helped it form a better curve I think. The ply is about double the cost, but I think it is probably worth the investment. You can see I only filled the back rectangular sections with sand. I ended up with about 94.5 bags of sand once it wall leveled off. I also ran a bead of caulk around the bottom of the stage to catch any sand that works its way down the corners of each section. I ran a bead of caulk around the top as well. Probably not necessary, but a little peace of mind.



Here's the decking on the first level before I trimmed the front.



And here's both levels trimmed up. Conveniently, the part that I trimmed off of the top level fit the curve on the first step perfectly. I only had to cut once section, and I got to use the piece from the top as a template. That saved quite a bit of time. I used BIG's marking tool to transfer the curve to the top of the ply for cutting. I think if I had to build it again, I might use a narrower board if I could. I used 2x2's, and I had to make sure I kept the face of the 2x2 flat against the face of the riser. With a narrower board, this might not have been as important.



I may still regret making the stage as deep as I did. With all my tools in there, it feels cramped between the stage and the riser. I realize 9'+ is plenty for moving around, I just don't want it to "feel" crowded.

I've been putting it off, but it looks like I'll need to start working on electrical next. Because I'll be running wiring in the riser, I can't put the decking on it until I get the electrical rough-in done. I'll need to mock up one of the disk lights in my coffered ceiling to make sure they will fit in the jbox as advertised. I'll probably mount those first, then move on to the perimeter lights followed by the outlets in the columns and the stage. I'll also need to get all the outlets in my equipment room roughed in as well. Quite a bit of electrical to do before I can put the decking on my deck.....er..... riser. smile.gif

I guess I have to get my dimmers ordered. Where did I put my checkbook???
post #1314 of 1535
Easy there, tiger! You'll get too far ahead of my build, and then my progress will be wasted. wink.gif

The stage looks good - I don't think it will be too big when you're done. On the sand, it looks like initial estimates were high by about 20%. Does that sound right to you?
post #1315 of 1535
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HopefulFred View Post

Easy there, tiger! You'll get too far ahead of my build, and then my progress will be wasted. wink.gif

The stage looks good - I don't think it will be too big when you're done. On the sand, it looks like initial estimates were high by about 20%. Does that sound right to you?

I wouldn't worry, I've had more time to work on the theater in the past month than I probably will the rest of the year smile.gif

And yes, my initial estimates were a bit high. However, I made a last minute audible and changed from 2x12's to 2x10's. I never refigured for the new dimensions.

Room is ~18.5', so 222". I framed at 16" o.c., so that's 13.9 bays.

Each bay is 9.25" x 14.5" x ~45" which gives 6036 in^3. That's 3.5 ft^3 per bay.

13.9 bays x 3.5 ft^3/bay = 48.6 ft^3 total.

48.6 ft^3 / 0.5 ft^3/bag = 97 bags.

That's surprisingly close.
post #1316 of 1535
Thread Starter 
Here's the current lighting plan (thanks to Fred for the final tweaks on positioning the perimeter lights).



Not sure about whether to put those last cans along the sides currently labeled Z3 on the Z2 zone or not.

I may put in my perimeter lights and just see how much light I have in the room. If it looks like enough, I may omit the coffer lights. We'll see. I think it will be hard to tell with white walls in the room unless I go ahead and prime everything a dark gray. I did a test a while back with just two strips of LED strip light, and they lit the room up well enough that I could read just about anywhere in the room.

I'll certainly go ahead and order the dimmer for the disk lights JIK. I can always put in the wire, and then use remodel cans to mount the lights if I decide I need them.
post #1317 of 1535
Good plan. I couple of suggestions:
  • I would put those side lights notated as Z3 back with the Z2 lights.
  • I'd use the spare zone you have (assuming a 6-zone controller) to break out Z4 into front row and back row so all four lights don't have to be on when you might only be sitting in the back row, for example.
post #1318 of 1535
He's got the LED strip in the soffit on zone 6.
post #1319 of 1535
If you're talking the inexpensive 5M rolls of strip lights, it takes its own power supply and has its own IR target for control, which can easily be integrated into the control system outside the primary Grafik Eye or Insteon controls. Getting the necessary power supply and interface to dim those inexpensive strip lights via Grafik Eye (like Mr. Tim did), is pricey.

EDIT: Regarding the lighting plan, was there a consideration to have some of the perimeter lights pointing straight down the column and then centering the other perimeter lights between the columns, treating them as wall washers? Just curious.
Edited by TMcG - 9/16/13 at 1:50pm
post #1320 of 1535
Thread Starter 
I'm actually planning to put my GE on ebay and go to RadioRA2 (I'm planning to expand to the rest of the house as time and money permit). So number of zones is not an issue (within reason of course). Splitting Z4 into two zones is a good idea. I'll add another dimmer to order.

I am planning to control the strip lights via RA2. We'll see what the power supply and dimmer are going to set me back, but yes, they are a little more expensive than I would like.

I'll put the two Z3 lights on the same zone with Z2. I've gone back and fourth over it, but at the very least this makes it look "even." smile.gif

I don't think the lights will be close enough to the wall to work as wall washers without using gimbals. I have a section of my return utilizing a large portion of my soffit in the back of the room, so the lights need to be about 22" away from the wall. I'm open to suggestions, though!
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