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The Plains Theater - Page 18

post #511 of 1535
You could add an ERV. Mine was $1100 off of newegg and comes with a built in 270cfm fan. It has two 8" lines for interior and two 6 inch lines for exterior. There are a lot of different install options like pulling air out of 1 room and expelling the fresh/filter air in another. It doesn't have to tir in with the HVAC system at all. Keith is an advocate of not just exchanging the air but bringing fresh air into the space to make it more comfortable.
post #512 of 1535
Thread Starter 
I had no idea you can get ERV's from newegg. I'll have to take a look at those! I'd like to have one for my basement, but thought they were cost prohibitive.
post #513 of 1535
Thread Starter 
Since I got my layout back from Dennis, I've been looking at how it would affect my design. One of the big impacts was the height of the acoustic treatments. They are lower than I expected, and I was afraid that would prevent me from using a chair rail with wood below. So, I started researching chair rail heights, and one reference I found gives a pretty handy way to calculate the chair rail height based on the historic use. I'll outline it here, and put a link to the article for future reference.

Based on the article, you divide the ceiling height by 13, and multiply by 2.66. For a 9' ceiling, that puts the chair rail at 22". This is a lot lower than you typically see, which is 32"-36", but for me, this works out perfectly.

ChairRail.jpg
post #514 of 1535
Thread Starter 
Now for my 2nd update of the day. This, my friends, is what a soundproofed theater looks like while it's still in the boxes.

DSC_79611.jpg

That is six pails of Green Glue, a case of acoustic caulk, the famous (or possibly infamous) speed loader, and a box of 455 IB-1 clips. A couple of things to note.

1) This will likely not be enough Green Glue once I've built my joist mufflers, but we decided to start with this, and then figure how much extra I would need once I got to the end.

2) You read that right, I'm using IB-1 clips instead of Whisper Clips. Before you jump to any conclusions, let me just say that price was the least of my concerns when I decided to go with these clips. I would highly recommend that you give Ted and John a call and discuss isolation clips before you pull the trigger and buy clips for your project. Being cheap is just a great coincidence biggrin.gif

3) I should have more clips than I need, but it's easier to box some up and send the extras back than it is to have to wait on more clips when you're in the middle of putting them up.

And the bad news. The theater suffered a pretty substantial budget cut recently. As it stands, I'm hoping to get the room in drywall, and then chip away at finishing it as time and money allows. Best case scenario, by the time I get the drywall up, I'll have my budget back wink.gif, but in any case, this at least takes some of the time pressure off, and I feel like I can take my time and do everything right as I go along.

Finally, I'd like to thank Ted and John at Soundproofing Company for all their help. They took a lot of time to discuss all of my options with me, and never pushed any particular option that made them more money. The truly seemed to have my best interests in mind with each of their recommendations. This is a great company to deal with, and they have unprecedented customer service. Of course, I'm not telling this crowd anything they don't already know, right? cool.gif
post #515 of 1535
Mmmm...Green Glue...

+ roughly eleventy billion on Ted and John. None of my questions were too dumb for them to answer, and believe me I tried! Simply outstanding customer service.
post #516 of 1535
Required reading before using GG:

CatIndaHat.jpg

Sadly, John and Ted don't sell any Voom.
post #517 of 1535
Ah,

The green glue stage. This is the one stage I bypassed in my build. It was purely a cost thing. I'm cheap and I was already stretching my budget much further than I had planned. I WILL do the full meal deal in my next ground up theater build (which will come in 8 to 10 years when we buy our "retirement home".

I will be looking forward to your green glue updates (as well as all of the other applications of the sound proofing goodies.

Oh, and don't forget the required photos of empty containers of green glue in the trash......its like tradition round here.

Regards,

RTROSE
post #518 of 1535
Thread Starter 
Ah, Voom! With a 3 y.o. and 5 m.o., I'd like to have some Voom with or without the Green Glue! I'm fairly sure some of the things I've seen stuck to their clothes and faces were previously undiscovered substances biggrin.gif I've read time and again that GG will stick to everything, so I'm going to try my best to keep my hands out of it. I've got a feeling it won't matter though. I'm one of those people that can find a mud hole and get dirty in the middle of mall.

RT, I've had my second thoughts about the whole sound isolation thing, but Lord willing, we will not be moving again. So, as you said, we decided to go with the "full meal deal" on this one. There were a few times when I'd nearly talked myself out of it, and then I realized I could hear my dog snoring on the floor above, or my son decided to start try to detune the piano. That's when I decided to add the extra layer of GG on the back of the subfloor and go with a communicating door setup wink.gif


Now for a quick update. I finally had a little time to work in the theater, and I started bending staples and nails over getting ready for the first layer of GG and DW. Let me tell you, this part is NO FUN! Fortunately, I'm almost finished after only 2 or 3 hours. I also made a last minute audible with regard to ventilation plan. Originally I was planning to run my return under my riser, and under the floor in the adjacent equipment closet. I realized, however, that if anything ever happened to that duct, I would be looking at major surgery to fix it. So, I decided to give up some space in my equipment room and use a combination joist muffler an dead vent setup.

Nothing picture worthy, unfortunately. Hopefully I'll be able to order some of my drywall next week and find some time to get started with that. I'm planning to cut all the pieces to go between my joists first. Stack them neatly against the wall in order, and then apply GG and screw them to the ceiling in one pass. I'd like to limit the number of times I have to clean the speedloader smile.gif

Once I get that finished, the next step will be building joist mufflers and my dead vent(s).
post #519 of 1535
Thread Starter 
Another minor update. I've started cutting my drywall to go between the floor joists in my ceiling. I wasn't planning to do this originally, but decided to after hearing my dogs walking on the floor above. Ted recommends 2 layers, but I don't think I'm going to add the second. I'm sure I'll regret it later, but my concern is really eliminating noise getting out. So, I'll try to get some really boring pictures of drywall up later to keep you photo hounds happy smile.gif

I've also been working on my overall layout a bit, and I think I'm settling in on a final design. I've scrapped the coffered ceiling idea, I'm sad to say. There's just not enough head room on the riser. I've attached my current plan, and I'm sure it will look familiar to some of you. It's a pretty blatant copy of Mario's theater biggrin.gif The model is not exactly right, and getting the colors correct is tough in Sketchup. My screen wall will be different a little different from Mario's, as I'm planning for AT fabric so I apply some acoustic treatments up there. I'm still thinking about a color scheme, though. I really like black and red, but I wouldn't mind doing something a little different if I can find something. That said, I don't want to pick something I like less just to be different. I'll put more thought into it as I get closer to choosing colors.

UpdatedTheater.jpg

UpdatedTheater2.jpg

Black's don't show up well in the model, but this gives you the idea I think.
Edited by J_P_A - 10/22/12 at 7:46am
post #520 of 1535
Thread Starter 
Here's proof that I've been doing something. Not much, mind you, but when I get a free minute here and there, I try to make good use of it.

Here's my DW cut to fit between my floor joists. Since this is supposed to treat footfall noise, I decided not to do the area below my son's room since his room is carpet. My primary reason is just worrying over the stray screw head poking up into the carpet above.

DW1.jpg

Speaking of screws, here's the ever-so-tough to find 1-1/8" screws that I ordered from Fastenal. BIG and rabident pointed me in the right direction there. 1,000 screws for less than $20. Of course, as soon as I pull out the camera, the dogs take a sudden interest in what's going on. Photobombed by the boxer rolleyes.gif

DW.jpg

Hopefully I'll have some time to start applying the GG to all that DW pretty soon.

BTW, any tips on what to do with the speed loader if I need to take a week break between uses? Do I need to clean it up completely, or should I just drop it in a bucket of water?
post #521 of 1535
That's funny!

See the SIM that came with the Speedload, and you would cycle the gun in a pail of water 5 times, then leave it full until you come back. You can leave it in the pail like that over the weekend, if you like. As long as it's soaking in water, no GG can harden within the gun.
post #522 of 1535
Do you have a link that you can provide for the 1 1/8" screws you purchased?
post #523 of 1535
Thread Starter 
Thanks, Ted. I haven't even opened the package it's in yet. Once you open it, you start losing pieces, you know smile.gif


TMcG,

I forgot to link to the thread where it was mentioned.

Here's the link to the specific screws I ordered

I went a local Fastenal store to order them, though. I didn't order them online. Fortunately, there are two stores nearby, and one is on my way everyday.

EDIT: The price was also cheaper than what's shown on the website. $1.84/100 pcs IIRC.
post #524 of 1535
Keep up the good work!

The pets of AVS members seem to be taking over threads lately. It's nice to see everyone's furry friends! smile.gif
post #525 of 1535
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaustin View Post

.........The pets of AVS members seem to be taking over threads lately. It's nice to see everyone's furry friends! smile.gif

After seeing your thread, I'm beginning to wonder if you're not really Cesar Millan, The Dog Whisperer smile.gif
post #526 of 1535
Quote:
As long as it's soaking in water, no GG can harden within the gun.

The GG that's been on my WALLS for a couple of years now STILL hasn't hardened.
post #527 of 1535
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post

After seeing your thread, I'm beginning to wonder if you're not really Cesar Millan, The Dog Whisperer smile.gif

Dang it you got me!

Here's me going for a walk the other day. biggrin.gif

post #528 of 1535
Ha!
post #529 of 1535
Thread Starter 
AHA! I knew it! I want an autographed...... dog frisbee!

Time for the initial GG update. I've got all the pieces on the subfloor up, and I have to admit that working with GG is not as bad as I had expected. I thought I would post my process as well as my photo proof of progress in case it will help someone else along the way.

Things you need before you start that you might not think of before you do this the first time:

2 - 5 gal buckets. One filled 3/4 of the way full of water. You can use the empty bucket as temporary storage for your speedloader, and you can use the bucket of water to cycle water in and out of the loader and leave filled if you are going to be away for more than 20 minutes. Even if you don't think you'll need to stop, I'd recommend that bucket of water. You'll need to take a break at some point, and it's easy to have it there so you can store the speed loader easily.

1 - Can of WD40. This stuff works wonders for cleaning GG of you! You also use it to lubricate the speedloader, but that's a much less impressive use of the stuff rolleyes.gif

1 - Box of shop towels. Paper towels will also work, or anything you can use to wipe up spills. I would recommend something disposable, though. You don't want to end up just smearing around GG already on your rag.

1- Trash can or box to throw your dirty towels to keep them out of the way and off the floor. You don't want to step on a rag with GG on it and then spend the rest of the day tracking it around.

Here's my process (Some of these come directly from the SIM, others are what I learned along the way):

1) First I arranged all of my stuff. A work area for applying the GG. My GG immediately next to that to limit drips on the floor. My two buckets, WD40, and shop towels next to that.
2) Label the top of your GG bucket with 3 regions (you don't actually have to label it, just remember where not to touch; but it serves for this example). The first is an area you don't want to touch. This gives you a place to wipe the loader nozzle on the bucket lip. The GG will get on the lid's seal the next time you close the bucket, and if you grab that area when you open the top.... well, refer to the WD40 note above. The other two areas are where you can seal the bucket temporarily between uses. This keeps it from drying out, but still easy to open the next time.
DW5.jpg

3) Since I was doing my subfloor, I laid out 32 - 48 s.f. of drywall. That's 2-3 loads of GG, and that's about what I could hang in 20 minutes. I laid them out and pressed them tight against each other to limit drips on the floor. Below you can see my layout. Note that every piece is numbered and has notes about orientation on it.
DW-1.jpg

4) Load the gun, and apply to your DW being careful to leave a 3" border around the edge to give you something to hold onto. Here you can how I applied the GG, and notice that I left a border along the edge of EACH piece to go up.
DW2.jpg

5) After you've applied your GG to your drywall, wipe the excess GG off the loader tip on your predefined region of the bucket lip. Next you can do one of two things.
5.a) If you're moving quickly, just drop the loader in the empty bucket (tip down of course). This bucket gives you somewhere to drop the loader that keeps the GG from getting everywhere
5.b) If you're moving slowly, or if you need to take an extended break, cycle water in and out of the loader five or six times in your water bucket, then fill the loader with water one last time and leave it in the water. This was handy for me since I was moving rather slowly putting up all the individual pieces, but it's probably not necessary when putting up full sheets.

6) Rinse, and repeat as necessary.

These are my observations as a first time GG user:

1) I'll say it again, WD40 is amazing for getting GG of of you. Yep, that's right, WD40 is known to dissolve most substances you are likely to encounter on the planet Earth, and GG is no exception. I don't remember having ever read this anywhere else, but the speedloader came with a can, and as soon as I got some GG on me, I immediately reached for the WD40. I sprayed the GG liberally with WD40, and it wiped right off. However you decide to clean off GG, do it immediately. The stuff is sticky, and whatever you touch will get it on it. If you get it on your drill or ladder, every time you touch those you've got it on you again. I'm fairly certain the stuff violates conservation of mass.

2) I expected it to be a different color green. It's sort of a pastel green, and I was expecting the green on the bucket.

3) It has a pretty strong smell. It reminded me of concentrated latex paint.

4) It's a lot thinner than I expected. I was expecting it to be the consistency of caulk, but it's really more like runny pudding. It will hold it's shape, but it's really easy to squeeze it out of the speedloader.

5) It is sticky, but refer back to 1) above smile.gif

This is the progress I made.
DW3.jpg

And this is an ares with carpet above. I'm glad I decided not to do these areas because I had several places where the screws went straight through the DW despite my best efforts.
DW4.jpg

The next step is dead vents and joist mufflers.
post #530 of 1535
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tlogan6797 View Post

The GG that's been on my WALLS for a couple of years now STILL hasn't hardened.

LOL! Well don't touch it. That stuff will get on everything! I was afraid one of my dogs would step in it when I wasn't looking and track it all over the house.
post #531 of 1535
Great pics and comments!
post #532 of 1535
Thread Starter 
Thanks, Ted. Obviously some of that comes directly from your SIM, and I'm sure most people would end up doing this similarly to what I did. But I didn't think it would hurt to post my thoughts on the experience smile.gif
post #533 of 1535
Thread Starter 
Not really an update today so much as rambling. I've seen some posts recently about keeping the noise floor down inside the theater possibly being more important than keeping the noise contained inside it. There is no question in my mind that a quiet room certainly sets the stage for a great experience, and I certainly hope that my efforts will give me those kinds of results. However, if I had to choose between keeping the noise out, and keeping the noise in, this morning I would go with keeping it in. I've had to restort to using headphones when I'm playing video games to keep from waking the kids. It's really not a bad compromise, but after going to the trouble of setting up a 5.1 in our living room, it sure is a shame not to be able to use it. Not only that, but you can't fit much of a sub in a set of headphones biggrin.gif

Fortunately, those two things are not mutually exclusive, and getting one puts you a long way towards having both. I'm just looking forward to the day when I can fire up a Blu-ray after the kids go to bed and not have to wear out a set of batteries in the remote turning the volume up and down rolleyes.gif

Rambling over; back to theater news. I'm currently trying to decide between having a normal door in the theater, and trying to hide it. That is, make it look like a continuation of my panels, trim, etc. I think hiding it will be tough due to the low soffit, and I wonder if the novelty of the hidden door wears off after a while? Any thoughts?
post #534 of 1535
Thread Starter 
Another minor update. I've started on the my joist muffler for the HVAC supply. This should be the most time consuming of the three that I need to build as it crosses the room. Photo proof as always.

Since I have I-beams rather than dimensional lumber joists, I decided to fill the recessed area with two layers of 1/2" drywall (no GG here). This is just to take up space. When I asked Ted about it way back when, he didn't feel the open space would be a problem, but I had a little extra 1/2" laying around, so why not. Here's a pick of the second layer of 1/2" being started.

DW-2.jpg

Once both layers of 1/2" were up, I started adding the first layer of 5/8" to the sides. Here's the first piece up.

DW1-2.jpg

I finished with the sides, and next I'll have to precut all the pieces for the second layer for the top and sides. These will get GG. I'll probably do the first layer for the other two joist mufflers and my one dead vent to try to get as much done with the GG as I can at once.

Also, notice the wire in the photo above. I'm planning to run that inside my joist muffler. It's not ideal, but I don't really have a convenient choice.

And lastly, it looks like my duct is going to take up most of the space in my joist muffler. There will be very little, if any, space left over for insulation. I hope this isn't going to be a problem. I'll probably touch base with Ted before I seal it up, but again, not much choice here either.
post #535 of 1535
Insulation is what is bringing the magic. No insulation = no absorption (other than from air resistance). Is the flex insulated at least?
post #536 of 1535
Thread Starter 
Hmmmm.... The flex is insulated. That's it shown in the picture above. It's an 8" line that is wrapped in R-8. So it takes up nearly 12". After DD+GG, I think the muffler will have an 11"x13" opening. I may be able to compress the duct a bit, and fill some insulation in the corners and a little along the bottom.

Should I be looking for a different approach?
post #537 of 1535
Ca you accomodate 6" flex? That would give you the room for some loose R13
post #538 of 1535
Thread Starter 
Not according to the heat load calc. The 8" will keep the room cool with people in the chairs, but not if there are additional people at the rear bar. Obviously there won't be that many people in there all the time, but I can easily see us with 6 to 8 regularly (which is what the HVAC was sized for).

Is the concern sound traveling down the ductwork into adjacent rooms, or sound traveling through the joist bay and through the floor above? The former would not be a big deal as the line connects to the trunk line in a mechanical closet and makes some 90 degree bends before entering the next room (all flex). If it's the latter........ that would be a problem smile.gif
post #539 of 1535
The problem is the only reason the mufflers, Dead Vents, etc work is because the sound wave meets with constant resistance from the fibrous insulation. The sound wave will not be met with such resistance simply travelling through open air.

The R8 insuloation is minimal for what we want.
post #540 of 1535
Thread Starter 
I may be able to compress the duct into an oval and squeeze in 3-1/2" for R13.

I wish I had stopped to calculate the opening sooner. I could have let the muffler drop below the joists and picked up another 1" or so. Of course, that would introduce its own set of problems.
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