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The Plains Theater - Page 20

post #571 of 1535
Thread Starter 
Unfortunately, my soffit is too narrow at 7" to be used as a duct. I know it's common to build ducts at less than 7" in height, but once you add insulation to the interior, you are fast running out of real estate. So while my duct can dump into the soffit, the soffit will really just act as a plenum to attach my diffuser grill to.

ERV's are one of those things I'm sure I'll end up researching more as in the next few years, but I'm a little surprised to hear they don't talk to the AHU either. Doesn't seem like it would be a difficult thing to do.
post #572 of 1535
Technically speaking, your target should be 6 air exchanges per hour, including a minimum of 12-15 CFM of fresh air per hour per person. I don't have the time at the moment to roll these numbers into the cubic volume of your room and give you a definitive target supply CFM. 300 CFM could be sufficient, but an 8" flex is only rated for an output of 180-200 CFM max, depending on the power and speed of your HVAC's fan at a given static pressure. An 8" rigid duct will give you about a 15% bump in these numbers, but it still can't handle 300 CFM. For that volume of air you would have to go all the way to a 10" line in either flex or rigid, fyi.

Your lighting plan is also not finalized, so that will definitely come into play for the total thermal load calculations and how much CFM of cooling you will actually need.

Regarding your comment about the 8" hole in your ceiling.....would you rather that the penetration go into an insulated flex tube with two layers of 5/8" and Green Glue behind it OR a drywall box lined with 1" duct liner attached directly to the joists with the same two layers of drywall / Green Glue above? My vote is for the flex line with the insulation - that's my point. Especially since you have 19 feet to your main trunk line and don't have much concern about sound leaking from the room through the HVAC.

I had one other question regarding your force-ventilated return with the in-line fan - how do you plan to control this system? Assume you are able to match the fan's speed perfectly with the amount of CFM entering the room for supply. That's fine, but what happens when the HVAC system switches off? Does the return fan continue to run and put your room into a negative pressure situation? If it does, that means your theater door will be very difficult to open because of the pressure differential, fyi. Something else to think about.
Edited by TMcG - 11/13/12 at 10:42am
post #573 of 1535
Thread Starter 
I think we've been talking about two different things. We were tossing around the idea of building a duct in the joist, but I think we pretty well abandoned that idea after a post or two. Since then I've been discussing building a joist muffler with a flex duct in it but not necessarily the optimum amount of additional fiberglass. So four sides with DD+GG, a small amount of fiberglass insulation, and then the flex.

In my first post, way WAY back in the day biggrin.gif, I figured I needed about 134 cfm to keep 8 people cool in the room (people at the bar don't really count as we'll have the door open for sporting events, etc.). I figured an 8" flex duct is rated for around 160 cfm based on the field sizing chart which should be more than sufficient to keep the room cool. I'm not too worried about lights as the cans will be off, or dimmed the majority of the time, and I'm hoping to use LED's for the rope lights and step lights.

For 6 air exchanges, I figured I needed 530 cfm (again, way back in my first post), and for 4 exchanges I need around 300 cfm. However, the standard that those numbers are based on is intended to provide "fresh" air to living spaces. In a general sense, i interpret the standard to mean, you need 6 exchanges in your home every hour. So I don't know that just recirculating air from adjacent rooms really meats the intent of that.

As far as controlling the fan. I intend to leave it on, and I'm only planning to reduce the speed if there is some issue that pops up. My reasoning is this. The theater is on the same zone as the rest of the basement. I plan to trigger the fan from the AVR or PJ, so it will run all the time. Best case is perfect cfm match. Worst case is the fan pulls more CFM than the supply would normally provide, which is not necessarily bad. When the HVAC is off, the fan will simply draw air through the ductwork from the rest of the basement. So I suppose it's a passive crossover using the HVAC ductwork. This should equalize the pressure in the room.
post #574 of 1535
I saw the DTS-10 kit was back on sale. Maybe we could get Tony to host an AVS meet... safety in numbers.

http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/products/subwoofers/specialty-subs/dts-10_kit/
post #575 of 1535
Thread Starter 
Thanks for posting that! I'll be giving them a call tomorrow to find out how much it is this time around.
post #576 of 1535
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post

I think we've been talking about two different things. We were tossing around the idea of building a duct in the joist, but I think we pretty well abandoned that idea after a post or two. Since then I've been discussing building a joist muffler with a flex duct in it but not necessarily the optimum amount of additional fiberglass. So four sides with DD+GG, a small amount of fiberglass insulation, and then the flex.
In my first post, way WAY back in the day biggrin.gif, I figured I needed about 134 cfm to keep 8 people cool in the room (people at the bar don't really count as we'll have the door open for sporting events, etc.). I figured an 8" flex duct is rated for around 160 cfm based on the field sizing chart which should be more than sufficient to keep the room cool. I'm not too worried about lights as the cans will be off, or dimmed the majority of the time, and I'm hoping to use LED's for the rope lights and step lights.
For 6 air exchanges, I figured I needed 530 cfm (again, way back in my first post), and for 4 exchanges I need around 300 cfm. However, the standard that those numbers are based on is intended to provide "fresh" air to living spaces. In a general sense, i interpret the standard to mean, you need 6 exchanges in your home every hour. So I don't know that just recirculating air from adjacent rooms really meats the intent of that.
As far as controlling the fan. I intend to leave it on, and I'm only planning to reduce the speed if there is some issue that pops up. My reasoning is this. The theater is on the same zone as the rest of the basement. I plan to trigger the fan from the AVR or PJ, so it will run all the time. Best case is perfect cfm match. Worst case is the fan pulls more CFM than the supply would normally provide, which is not necessarily bad. When the HVAC is off, the fan will simply draw air through the ductwork from the rest of the basement. So I suppose it's a passive crossover using the HVAC ductwork. This should equalize the pressure in the room.

I hope your system plan works out well and you will be nice and comfortable. My last theater was very warm and virtually unusable for extended periods due to an accumulation of different HVAC factors. I'd hate to see the same situation for anyone else, particularly after the size of the investment made to finish out the room. Good luck!
post #577 of 1535
Thread Starter 
TMcG, I really appreciate your input on this. I'm just trying to make it work with the constraints that I've been given. You know, lemons and lemonade. That business biggrin.gif

On the bright side, my HVAC contractor has already agreed to fix it if it doesn't work to my satisfaction. But I want to do my best to give it a fair shot.
post #578 of 1535
I completely understand and I sincerely hope that it works out. I was coming from a "two heads (or in this case thousands of heads) are better than one" approach in discussing options and how to make the best lemonade from the worst lemons.

Looking forward to the updates and thanks for the leads on those 1 1/8" screws - I place my order with Fastenal today as I drag the Stonewater Cinema into genesis, kicking and screaming.... I expect some feedback from you as I go through the process on my own theater!!biggrin.gif
post #579 of 1535
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMcG View Post

...........as I drag the Stonewater Cinema into genesis, kicking and screaming.... I expect some feedback from you as I go through the process on my own theater!!biggrin.gif

I keep clicking on that "link" in your signature, but I can't seem to get it to work. Maybe I need to update my browser or something biggrin.gif Hint hint!

Glad I could help with the screws. They're nice, too. The coating is much nicer than what comes on the standard black screws. I've been picking fragments of that black coating out of my hands for days.
post #580 of 1535
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post


As far as controlling the fan. I intend to leave it on, and I'm only planning to reduce the speed if there is some issue that pops up. My reasoning is this. The theater is on the same zone as the rest of the basement. I plan to trigger the fan from the AVR or PJ, so it will run all the time. Best case is perfect cfm match. Worst case is the fan pulls more CFM than the supply would normally provide, which is not necessarily bad. When the HVAC is off, the fan will simply draw air through the ductwork from the rest of the basement. So I suppose it's a passive crossover using the HVAC ductwork. This should equalize the pressure in the room.

Should work just fine triggering that way with the proper relay.

Be prepared to deal with a considerable amount of noise from the ducts. Both of mine are enclosed but I was surprised at how much noise the air made while bouncing down that flex duct and mine's half the size of yours.....cool.gif

Good Luck!
post #581 of 1535
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post

As far as controlling the fan. I intend to leave it on, and I'm only planning to reduce the speed if there is some issue that pops up. My reasoning is this. The theater is on the same zone as the rest of the basement. I plan to trigger the fan from the AVR or PJ, so it will run all the time. Best case is perfect cfm match. Worst case is the fan pulls more CFM than the supply would normally provide, which is not necessarily bad. When the HVAC is off, the fan will simply draw air through the ductwork from the rest of the basement. So I suppose it's a passive crossover using the HVAC ductwork. This should equalize the pressure in the room.

I knew Moggie had conquered this problem before with a home-spun solution to balance the supply / return airflow system that worked extremely well, so I thought I would take the time and go through his thread to find the solution he used. He had the exact opposite problem you had where his room was in a positive pressure situation. In previous posts he described how it took two hands to pull the door open and overcome the air pressure. Here's the post FWIW:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1117148/saga-of-the-old-vic/810#post_20496753
post #582 of 1535
Thread Starter 
Thanks for posting that link! When in doubt, reference Moggie's thread smile.gif I've been looking for an automated variable speed controller and the one in that image is very promising. That opens lots of doors for controlling the temperature/pressure in the room! Most of the controllers that I've found so far were either manual controllers or insanely expensive.

Hopefully Moggie won't mind that I'm reposting his image here, but it will be a good reference for later.

SpeedController.jpg
post #583 of 1535
^ This is very interesting indeed.

I wonder about the cost and if it will work proper with Panasonic fans.......

Edit: manufacturer of the smartfan nimbus has 10pc minimum buy and they're $46.00each..... This appears to be an excellent solution though!
Edited by NicksHitachi - 11/15/12 at 8:07am
post #584 of 1535
Looks like the Setra M260 pressure sensor can be had for $45 through eBay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Setra-M260-Pressure-Sensor-/271079298990
They have an M264 now, not sure what the functional differences are, but . . . .

The SmartFan Nimbus controller appears to be about $30+ shipping street price. More info HERE.

Not sure about the compatibility with the Panasonic fans....
post #585 of 1535
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMcG View Post


The SmartFan Nimbus controller appears to be about $30+ shipping street price. More info HERE.

Where can you buy one?
post #586 of 1535
That's why I attached the engineering spec sheet....there are so many different options based on what fan equipment you would like to control. I say the real magic in Moggie's solution is in the pressure sensor. Fan controllers are made by many, many different companies so I am sure you can source *a* controller and not specifically the SmartFan Nimbus.

But to answer your question, Grainger usually has lots of items like that.
post #587 of 1535
Thread Starter 
I haven't had any luck finding any other controllers that were cheap. I'll post in Moggie's thread and see if he can point us in the right direction for the controller.

The pressure sensor is also interesting, but I think you would still need a PID to provide the 4-20 mA necessary to drive the controller. One piece at a time smile.gif
post #588 of 1535
Thread Starter 
FYI, I called Panasonic about using a speed controller on these fans. They said that they have NOT tested these fans with a speed controller, but I could use one if I wanted to.

Ummmm. That's a little ambiguous, but that's all I could get out of them. I "think" these are permanent split capacitor motors, so they should work with the controller.
post #589 of 1535
I also got a vague response from Panasonic on that same question. I'm thinking of ordering one in the next few days with the expectation that it will work. Let us know if you get more info about this...thx
post #590 of 1535
Quote:
Originally Posted by rabident View Post

I saw the DTS-10 kit was back on sale. Maybe we could get Tony to host an AVS meet... safety in numbers.
http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/products/subwoofers/specialty-subs/dts-10_kit/

I haven't been on the board in weeks and I pop in and see my name. smile.gif I would have you guys over anytime! I heard the price had gone up $100, but not positive. I'm still a fan of mine. With my current schedule, I haven't used the room as much as I used to. It had been about a month before we watched Spiderman last weekend and I was impressed all over again!

I got lucky with my HVAC. It wasn't a "designed" system. A buddy did it as a moonlighting job. It stays comfy even with 15 people and closed doors. It's not as quiet as it could be, but it is quieter than my main upstairs unit.
post #591 of 1535
Thread Starter 
Tony, always nice to have you stop by! I wish I could make a trip to visit! I'd love to demo the DTS-10's. Unfortunately, I think my schedule may be almost as crazy as yours right now. School get's crazy sometimes, but don't forget to set aside a little time for the family and yourself my friend. It will make it easier for everyone else to live with you biggrin.gif

I'm going to try to get in on the DTS-10 kit this time. It's really stretching the budget, but I've been kicking myself since I let it pass last time. When I spoke with James at Danley, he said the kit is $1075, but shipping is going to add another $150 to $300 to that (Even if I pick them up in Atlanta). We'll see how it works out.

And for a minor (as usual) update. With the last minute changes to my HVAC plans, I'm suddenly really close to being ready to put up insulation, clips, channel, and drywall. That's because the HVAC penetrations will go through the walls now instead of the ceiling. So, I ran a 2" conduit and a 14-2 from my rack to where I "think" I will put the PJ. I'm planning to put in the penetrations in my ceiling with backer boxes, and then worst case I won't be able to use them. If not, I can just plug the holes and no harm no foul. Here's proof.

PrewireAndConduitForPJ.jpg

PrewireAndConduitForPJ1.jpg

This also gives me a convenient place to refer to when I need to find that wire and that conduit later smile.gif
post #592 of 1535
Big is faster than a 3 legged chicken putting clips in. I wish I had used him to help me build my shell. Do you plan to literally do it all yourself, or are you going to contract out some aspects?
post #593 of 1535
Thanks Rabident for the analogy. The secret is an impact driver, laser level, and star drive deck screws.
post #594 of 1535
Thread Starter 
I've never seen a 3 legged chicken, but that certainly paints a vivid mental image biggrin.gif

Unfortunately, I'll probably be doing all of this project. When we started the house, the HT budget was enough to finish the room (probably) and maybe even use engineered acoustic panels. After building the house, the budget will be tight to get the drywall up before we have to put it on hold. Being a graduate student.... Again...... Limits the HT funding rolleyes.gif

Big, good tips as always! Sounds like I was on the right track. What length deck screws do you use? I've got a ton of 2-1/2 and 3" left over from my fence project, but I feel like those are too long.
post #595 of 1535
I used 1 7/8"
post #596 of 1535
Thread Starter 
Time for the usual minor update. My first order of business was to take down the last layer of 5/8" DW from the sides of my joist cavity. It's not needed with the changes to my ventilation strategy. I left the 1/2" since it's not really hurting anything. I suppose I could have left the 5/8" as well, but I feel better with it out.




With that out of the way, I started adding R19 to the ceiling. I also had to add some blocking at one end where my joists change direction. Here you can see a little of both. I'm sure the old timers around here have already noticed the problem with my sound proofing strategy. My insulation is not pink............ My head is hung in shame redface.gif



With that out of the way, it was time to start adding the furring strips to my ceiling to lower everything below the 18" beam that bisects my room. Here's the load of 1-1/2" furring strips (commonly referred to as 2x4's) ready to be hauled to theater. I bought ~80 8' 2x's, but I think I'm going to come up a little short.



Here's their temporary home before going on the ceiling. I suspect I'll be doing the building material shuffle a lot before this is all done smile.gif



And finally, I managed to get started on adding the 2x's to the ceiling, but I ddin't finish. It's going slower than I expected. You can see the beam that's causing all the trouble. With the 2x's + clips + channel, my first layer of DW will be 5/8" below that beam.



To put these up, I've been marking the ends at the front and back of the theater, and using a self leveling laser level to project a line from one end to the other. Seems to work very well.

I will say I wish I had a framing gun! I've been using 2-1/2" deck screws, and while they hold really well, it's been tough on the 'ol Ridgid cordless. It will drive them fine, but the battery life suffers! I've got an impact driver as well that came with the set, but it's a good bit slower than the drill. Working over head, I'm all about getting it done quickly. At any rate, with a framing gun, I'd probably be finished already.

I'm sure you'll notice the empty joist bays. The spacing is not uniform, so I've got a few that the batts will not say in without something to hold them. So I'll add the insulation once I get the furring strips up.

On a side note, I had to look quite a bit to find 25 ga. hat channel. Here's a pick to prove that I did (BTW, it's nice to have a 4 wheel drive)



I ended up finding the only local drywall supply house in the area. They had to order it as it's becoming less and less common to use the stuff (apparently). I'm told everyone is going to 22 ga. The bright side is they have the stuff at about 1/2 the cost of Home Depot. They also sell DW and insulation much cheaper than Home Depot or Lowes. In fact, the cost of 5/8" DW delivered into my theater is less than HD and Lowes list their 5/8" DW for.
Edited by J_P_A - 11/28/12 at 11:04am
post #597 of 1535
Everything looks great JPA! Keep up the good work.

In regards to the framing nailer, I bought this one when I built my deck in the backyard. For the price, I should have just bought it when I framed the theater. It would have saved me a ton of time. The palm nailer also comes in handy too.

http://www.homedepot.com/buy/husky-2-piece-framing-and-palm-nailer-combo-kit-2pfrpnck.html#.ULZ1eazAd8E
post #598 of 1535
Thread Starter 
Wow. I had no idea they are that cheap now. I may have to pick one up. I really like how strong everything is with the screws, but it is painfully slow compared to a nail gun. You can probably put in 4 nails in the time it takes to drive one screw. Toe nailing is a lot easier as well.
post #599 of 1535
Excellent progress. Every little bit helps. I as well joined the "my pink stuff is not pink" club as my insulation was yellow and white, no pink in sight. I second the framing nailer. Having toe nailed, screwed, and pneumatically nailed there is no easier way to do framing work. It is well worth the price of admission and if you choose to you can always sell it after your project.

I say go for it. Just make sure that you get a big enough compressor to run the thing.

Regards,

RTROSE
post #600 of 1535
Nice work!

I gotta plug Hitachi for nail guns. Nevermind my AVS tag im not really affiliated with them. I bought one when i built my house. The framer i used was on hard times and his nailer was broke. He framed my house and garage with it. I later framed my pump house 12x18 with it and my dad framed his 25x48 shop with it. Never done anything but put nails and oil in it!

NH out.
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