New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

The Plains Theater - Page 29

post #841 of 959
3/18/13 at 7:28pm
Thread Starter 
I think my problem can be summed up as not enough lumens and/or not enough money smile.gif

I guess I should add that when I started this, I read a lot about designing the room and not worrying about the equipment. So I did! unfortunately, unless you have an unlimited budget, you really have to consider the equipment when designing the room. Live and learn smile.gif
Edited by J_P_A - 3/18/13 at 7:48pm
Reply
Reply

AVS Top Picks

post #842 of 959
3/18/13 at 8:24pm
Unfortunately this game is unforgiving for those of us that are "budget minded or limited" While those of us that budget is less of a consideration the limitations are easier overcome as upping the budget can conquer a myriad of sins. What is the chance that you could shorten the throw distance to increase your lumens? The Epson 5020 and 6020 have a wireless HDMI link that you would only have to worry about getting power to the PJ not any video cables. As for a hushbox, well the 5020 is not jet engine loud like PJ's of yesteryear so sound containment is not the issue it once was.

Don't beat yourself up buddy, we all make mistakes and usually it is nothing that can't be fixed either by some redesigning or throwing some money at the problem. Oh wait, now there I go, money is the problem, ah I digress, guess it might be time to redesign slightly and consider plan B, or is it C, maybe D.

The good thing is drywall is not up so now is the time to rearrange things without too much hassle. You could do what I did when I had to noodle through a particular problem that was HT related. I would grab something to sit on, pop open a beer and sit there in the theater thinking and drinking pondering the issue at hand. Usually after a hour or two, or three or four (or was that beer number two three or four) I would come up with a workable solution to the problem at hand.


Regards,

RTROSE
Reply
Reply
post #843 of 959
3/18/13 at 10:29pm
I wouldn't feel bad at all. A good room gives you room to grow. You could start with the projector in the room, and then move it into the closet with the next PJ upgrade. Projectors are getting brighter and cheaper.

10 years ago my projector had 400:1 CR and 900 lumens. New projectors smoke that for 1/4 the price. Imagine what we'll have in the next 10 years. Good to have the space and not needed than the other way around. Worst case, you could use a smaller screen, pull everything in closer, and put something in back to fill the extra space like a pool table
Reply
Reply
post #844 of 959
3/19/13 at 3:55am
Exactly! I don't understand why it is so common to design a room around a technology that moves so fast? We've all seen examples of beautiful rooms with tiny screens designed this way. Design for the future!

I also don't agree with the use of 'very' when describing the potential dimness of an image. I know I'm a broken record on the topic...
Reply
Reply
post #845 of 959
3/19/13 at 6:56am
Thread Starter 
I'm not too broke up about it smile.gif I'm certainly not planning any major redesigns at this point either. When we were designing the house, and we settled on a layout for the theater, the plan was to put the PJ in the soffit at the back, or in that odd section at the back. Fast forward several months later after our house was built, and I discover that just because a PJ can project the image from 30', doesn't mean you're actually going to like it smile.gif I'm in a bit of an odd situation because I've only setup PJs for conference rooms, and I've never had one at home. So I'm having to make decisions based on what I can learn on the forums and all the advice you guys are willing to offer (which is MUCH appreciated, BTW).


At any rate, on the ceiling, in the back, or sitting on a 5 gallon bucket, I'm excited about the prospect of having a projector at all smile.gif When this thing is finished, I'm probably going to sound like a teenage girl at a Justin Bieber concert biggrin.gif
Reply
Reply
post #846 of 959
3/19/13 at 7:05am
The comment was regarding the contrast ratio above anything else. Trying to reach a projector's true contrast ratio is impossible when throw distances and screen size are at or beyond recommended limits similar to calibrating the audio to -0db from reference at 20Hz when using a single subwoofer in a large room. There just isn't enough "oomph". Yes, you will get picture and you will get sound - but if there is an A/B comparison to allow the video and audio differences to be shown the differences become immediately apparent.

But it all depends on what JPA wants because even a substantial loss in contrast ratio and brightness may still prove to be an acceptable image to the theater owner. There shouldn't be a disagreement with the facts and science of proper calibration and what is required to achieve everything we pay for in a piece of equipment. But there could be a conscious choice of what is acceptable based on tradeoffs such as screen size, room color, room treatments, etc.
Reply
Reply
post #847 of 959
3/19/13 at 7:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post

At any rate, on the ceiling, in the back, or sitting on a 5 gallon bucket, I'm excited about the prospect of having a projector at all smile.gif When this thing is finished, I'm probably going to sound like a teenage girl at a Justin Bieber concert biggrin.gif

 

That just brought a horrible vision to mind eek.gif.

 

 

Reply
Reply
post #848 of 959
3/19/13 at 8:09am
Thread Starter 
Wow. that is disturbing! Is his hair on fire in that picture?

No lie, that image locked up my browser the first time I tried to open my thread smile.gif
Reply
Reply
post #849 of 959
3/19/13 at 3:38pm
No disagreement with the science or facts. I'm saying that what appears so significant by the numbers really didn't prove so in practice, for my taste. I can't directly compare, but do have friends that are within specs on their projectors. I just don't feel it accurate to call the differences "substantial" or "very". But, as you said, it's a personal decision.
Reply
Reply
post #850 of 959
3/19/13 at 6:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tony123 View Post

No disagreement with the science or facts. I'm saying that what appears so significant by the numbers really didn't prove so in practice, for my taste. I can't directly compare, but do have friends that are within specs on their projectors. I just don't feel it accurate to call the differences "substantial" or "very". But, as you said, it's a personal decision.

Well, please allow me to explain "substantial" as I see it and FWIW. I have an old Sony SXRD television that has a 5000:1 contrast ratio which was extremely good for the year 2005. I have been very happy with the picture quality and like the overall video performance, including the contrast and black level. By comparison, the new Epson 6020 projector has the ability to achieve a 200,000:1 contrast ratio. But if there are certain things I do during my theater design and setup which make this Epson projector only achieve a maximum 10,000:1 contrast ratio in the final projected picture, chances are I will think this to be a very acceptable picture, especially when compared against something with a 5000:1 contrast ratio that I have been watching for 8 years and consider to be a good picture. But I am leaving 20 times the real performance the projector is capable of on the table - in other words 95% of the projector's contrast ratio can never be taken advantage of by limitations of the setup. To me, that's substantial. But that's real contrast and where the rubber meets the road is perceived contrast which is what we actually feel we see. In this example, even a 95% reduction in real contrast ratio for the projector has a perceived improvement over my existing Sony SXRD in a side-by-side comparison and with all things being equal which is the point you raise. My point is that there is a lot of performance left on the table.

As an interesting twist, the real projection "light canons" with the $30,000+ price tags have terrible contrast ratios, like the DPI Titan projectors. These are the projectors used in reference theaters with unlimited budgets, so why would they be used if their contrast ratios suck? The reason is that they make up for it in brightness and truly illuminate even the largest screens to the proper ft. lamberts. The Epson cannot go any brighter to help the perceived contrast.
Reply
Reply
post #851 of 959
3/22/13 at 5:59am
Yeah, but. With "on/off" contrast ratios you could perhaps compare two projectors from the same manufacturer; but certainly not between manufacturers. There are no standards for this measurement and methods used to obtain these (marketing) numbers do not reflect anything near what you'd achieve with the same unit once calibrated (there are a very few exceptions where the measurements are made post calibration by the manufacturer). In theory, "on/off" would provide an indication of the dynamic range; but, only under the same conditions as existed during the measurement (conditions which are not published but by a very, very few manufacturers).

ANSI contrast ratios are (supposed to be) measured under standard test conditions. (ANSI contrast is 'static' CR) At that, one's in room ANSI contrast ratio will not match the ANSI ratio achieved under standardized test conditions (unless you duplicate those conditions in your totally black room). Regardless of the dynamic range, you will find it exceptionally difficult to achieve an in room ANSI contrast ratio of 150:1. Again, any "dynamic contrast ratio" numbers are suspect due to the lack of any standardization coupled with the whole temporal nature of this measurement.

"Light canons" can certainly have "of/off" contrast ratios which meet or exceed the published metrics of budget consumer projectors...if measured under the same conditions! Clearly a 7,000 lumen projector against a 54x96 unity gain screen in a white room will not achieve the same numbers as a 1500 Lumens projector against a 1.3 gain, 54x96 screen in a black room...in this case the 1500 Lumen unit would win by a large margin.
Reply
Reply
post #852 of 959
3/22/13 at 7:33am
Agreed. That's why I said "all things being equal", which they clearly are not and cannot be. Certainly a wide range of picture-producing technologies from a number of manufacturers in a number of different test conditions. The chances of getting a true side-by-side difference measurement under the same conditions and eliminating all other variables is slim. About the only thing we can rely on is if a magazine or blog has an online "shootout" where all the testing conditions and calibrations are carefully controlled and measured. But even then they are using the appropriate sized screen at normal throw distances and not pushing the limits of image size and throw distances with new measurements. I have never seen a review where a projector was fully calibrated for a 120"w screen, for example, and then recalibrated for a 144"w screen to see the differences in final calibration, including measurements in contrast ratio, brightness, etc. It would be interesting to see.
Reply
Reply
post #853 of 959
3/27/13 at 12:54pm
Surely by now you have received another wrong shipment of hat track - right?
Reply
Reply
post #854 of 959
3/27/13 at 1:16pm
Thread Starter 
Believe it or not, and I'm still having trouble believing it myself, but I actually got the right hat channel last Thursday! I didn't take any pictures, so I didn't figure you guys would believe me anyway smile.gif This stuff is bright, shiny, and new. No rat poop or anything. It's even got the sticker from the manufacturer on it!

I have made a tiny bit of progress, and I was actually in the process of uploading the pics when I saw Fred had called me out biggrin.gif I know, likely story.

I finished adding clips around the bottom row of the room. I got to the door and had to tear out my temporary steps. I was a little unhappy about what I found. They didn't continue the plate under the stair landing, so I didn't have anything to run my channel on. Here's the first idea I had.



I decided I didn't like it even though it's not really holding much and it's going to be protected by the riser. There was a treated 2x6 in the temp steps that I tore out, so I cut it to length, and stuck it down there for a plate. I didn't nail it to the concrete, though. I just can't see renting a powder actuated gun just for three nails, and there's not room to get a drill in there to put in an anchor. I braced it with a couple short 2x's that I attached my clips to, though. Should be good (you can see it in the next couple pics). Then I added my threshold support. I started off with the GG and a piece of 3/4" ply. I didn't want to get out the GG caulking gun, so I found another calibrator applicator. Yeah, that's a piece of hat channel that I stepped on to flatten out one end.



I applied GG, attached my 3/4" ply, then I applied GG to a 2x4 and attached that. At this point I realized that my applicator was calibrated more in the 5 to 6 loads per sheet range. GG squeezed out everywhere, so I had to spend a bit scraping that up off of everything. I put some tape over the floor where it squeezed out there. Hopefully that will keep it off my shoes. The pic is blurry, but my clips are spaced better, and my bottom row now runs 3" off the floor like the SIM recommends.



Next thing on the list is to take down all the old channel on the ceiling, and put up the 25 ga! Pretty excited about it. Now I just have to find time smile.gif
Reply
Reply
post #855 of 959
3/27/13 at 1:25pm
That looks like progress to me! Unfortunately, pulling out the ceiling channel will be a little like dimension X progress, but if it must be done, it must be done.

You're making the same sort of progress that I have been - Slow. After coming off "vacation" I've had trouble finding my groove. Just wait until you're trying to heave around full sheets of 5/8" drywall by yourself - you'll know why I've been slow.
Reply
Reply
post #856 of 959
3/27/13 at 3:14pm
Man, I give you an A+ for perseverance. When working on my own stuff I don't have nearly that motivation.

What's with the labeling of the Green Glue bucket??

Tim
Reply
Reply
post #857 of 959
3/27/13 at 4:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Tim View Post

What's with the labeling of the Green Glue bucket??
For the answer, you'll need to travel back in time to November, and learn about J_P_A's patented two-bucket GG techniques. http://www.avsforum.com/t/1339540/the-plains-theater/510#post_22550215
Reply
Reply
post #858 of 959
3/27/13 at 5:30pm
Thread Starter 
^^^ yep, what he said.

November. Hard to believe its been that long ago.
Reply
Reply
post #859 of 959
3/27/13 at 7:17pm
Time flies when you are having fun! You just did not know that you were having that much fun.

Progress is progress even if it is slow and backwards (regarding the ceiling track).

Regards,

RTROSE
Reply
Reply
post #860 of 959
3/27/13 at 8:11pm
Where did you get the hat channel?
Reply
Reply
post #861 of 959
3/28/13 at 10:03am
Good going JPA!
Reply
Reply
post #862 of 959
3/28/13 at 10:05am
Thread Starter 
smile.gif Thanks, Vik!

Auburn008, the correct channel came from Cumberland Materials in Columbus. I can give you two scrap pieces so you can show your drywall guys what to use, and more importantly, what NOT to use smile.gif You have a PM BTW.
Reply
Reply
post #863 of 959
4/9/13 at 2:08pm
Must . . . get . . . update. . . *GASP* . . . must . . . know . . . what . . *GASP* . . . progress...has been . . . made....*(insert general groaning and death-like sounds here)*....
Reply
Reply
post #864 of 959
4/9/13 at 2:27pm
^^^For realsies.
Reply
Reply
post #865 of 959
4/9/13 at 2:33pm
^^^^^^^Ditto to the above two posts.

Regards,

RTROSE
Reply
Reply
post #866 of 959
4/9/13 at 2:50pm
I know what happened (I'm calling you out J_P_A!)! He got nervous about spending the next month hanging drywall, and has been hemming and hawing about finding a contractor to handle it. I scared him away. It's okay. wink.gif

(Just busting your chops - everyone says that drywall is part to contract out)
Reply
Reply
post #867 of 959
4/9/13 at 6:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by HopefulFred View Post

I know what happened (I'm calling you out J_P_A!)! He got nervous about spending the next month hanging drywall, and has been hemming and hawing about finding a contractor to handle it. I scared him away. It's okay. wink.gif

(Just busting your chops - everyone says that drywall is part to contract out)

You can say that again, you can say that again, you can........ok gotta stop myself.

Regards,

RTROSE
Reply
Reply
post #868 of 959
4/9/13 at 7:23pm
Thread Starter 
Wow! Walk away from the computer long enough to take the boys to soccer, and the crew starts a mutiny smile.gif

I've been working on the theater, but I didn't figure it counted as progress. I've managed to get my hat channel back up, but since I'm back to where I was before the hat channel debacle, I didn't think that qualified as post worthy "progress." I'll try to get some pictures up tomorrow, or maybe I'll post my old pics and see i anyone notices biggrin.gif

I did get one quote for the drywall, but it was enough to pay for Quest acoustic panels, so I'm going to pass on that one. They made it clear they were from out of town, so the quote included extra to account for that. I've got a couple other companies I'm planning to check with, so we'll see.

Glad to see you guys are still following along!
Reply
Reply
post #869 of 959
4/10/13 at 5:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by HopefulFred View Post

everyone says that drywall is part to contract out)

I'll be doing the theater room myself. Doesn't everyone for the theater? It takes too much precision with the cuts, application of Green Glue and especially application of the acoustic sealant to the board edges and in the corners - things most drywallers have never heard of before or would charge you obscene money to deal with. However, I definitely will be hiring out the rest of the basement.


JPA - I thought for sure you would be tackling this part of the project yourself (i.e. with a friend) since it is so easy to get a single room knocked out. Is it a time thing? Most of the drywall will be covered with acoustic panels and finish carpentry in your room, correct? So the finish doesn't even need to be perfect.
Reply
Reply
post #870 of 959
4/10/13 at 6:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMcG View Post

I'll be doing the theater room myself. Doesn't everyone for the theater? It takes too much precision with the cuts, application of Green Glue and especially application of the acoustic sealant to the board edges and in the corners - things most drywallers have never heard of before or would charge you obscene money to deal with. However, I definitely will be hiring out the rest of the basement.


JPA - I thought for sure you would be tackling this part of the project yourself (i.e. with a friend) since it is so easy to get a single room knocked out. Is it a time thing? Most of the drywall will be covered with acoustic panels and finish carpentry in your room, correct? So the finish doesn't even need to be perfect.
I went with a hybrid approach for my DW. Had the DW delivered and paid a little extra to stock it in the HT room. Hung it myself (not too bad when you have a DW lift for the ceiling), and hired out the mud/tape job. I got a great price for the finish work from the guys that did the rest of my house. I would hate to think what the full quote would have been for all the cuts, tight seams, GG and me hovering over them making sure it was right rolleyes.gif. The right crew can knock it out quick though, so that's always a plus (said the guy 5 months past his original deadline...)
Reply
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home

AVS Top Picks