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Seeking education about those ultra-expensive interconnects - Page 2

post #31 of 2598
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gizmologist View Post

totally accurate and a excellent question to boot.
Anyone have a said chart?

I don't know what chart that is, but I have done some measurements: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showth...ll=1#post19384





The post in the link explains the difference.
post #32 of 2598
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

I don't know what chart that is,

If EE like amirm doesn't know about this then it confirms the non-existence of such thing.
post #33 of 2598
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chadnliz View Post
Were not gonna start this "cables shouldnt manipulate the sound" debate are we? Thats what some want just like tubes so to each their own. Eq's, tone controls good, cables that xan say tame a high frequency issue bad? Doesnt make sense, why buy something that doesnt affect sound? Oh wait your point is likely that they dont change sound so agree to disagree.
Just a thought: Why have to pay four digits on ICs where an adjustment in EQ or cross-over will do the trick since your coloring the sound with any of these methods anyway?
I'm not saying that coloring the sound is bad if the highs are too harsh or lows are all but not there or whatever the situation is.
post #34 of 2598
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anubisrocks View Post

Do you think capacitance is a big important factor? I've heard that mentioned somewhere and I think it would be a more pressing factor in speaker cables as opposed to interconnects.

mcnarus gave you the right answers. A properly designed power amplifier can output a lot of current, which is what's needed to charge the capacitance you'd have with long wires. So speaker wires in particular do not benefit from low capacitance, though as mcnarus said incompetent amps can be coerced to oscillate. Most professional grade power amps can handle anything you hang off their outputs. But some high-end boutique stuff is lame. In fact, the very expensive high end is where I most often see the lamest circuit designs.

BTW, I'll mention that I'm in the process of writing a book about all of this stuff for a major publisher. It will be out around fall, and I'll let the forum know when it's available. This book is not just an audio reference that explains impedance and capacitance etc in layman's terms. It also addresses wire and other perennial debates head on, and resolves them using science, logic, and lots of audio examples.

--Ethan
post #35 of 2598
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Winer View Post

BTW, I'll mention that I'm in the process of writing a book about all of this stuff .......It also addresses wire and other perennial debates head on, and resolves them using science, logic, and lots of audio examples.

--Ethan

Science, logic.....mmmmmmm
post #36 of 2598
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Winer View Post

mcnarus gave you the right answers. A properly designed power amplifier can output a lot of current, which is what's needed to charge the capacitance you'd have with long wires. So speaker wires in particular do not benefit from low capacitance, though as mcnarus said incompetent amps can be coerced to oscillate. Most professional grade power amps can handle anything you hang off their outputs. But some high-end boutique stuff is lame. In fact, the very expensive high end is where I most often see the lamest circuit designs.

BTW, I'll mention that I'm in the process of writing a book about all of this stuff for a major publisher. It will be out around fall, and I'll let the forum know when it's available. This book is not just an audio reference that explains impedance and capacitance etc in layman's terms. It also addresses wire and other perennial debates head on, and resolves them using science, logic, and lots of audio examples.

--Ethan

Mcnarcus didn't say much, but I agree with what he said as far as he goes. In my area there is a problem of RF interference at a point and I have experienced it on occasion with cheapo ICs (the "included" ones). The minute I switched to the Monoprice premiums, the problem was gone. That tells me that one need not go any further than say Blue Jean Cables for ICs that do the job they are designed to do. That's not saying there is anything wrong with anyone who choses otherwise, to each their own. If ultra expensive ICs satisfy you, then by all means, get them.
Anyway, back to capacitance. In my case, I'm just hanging stuff off an Onkyo TX-R705 which probably has either and A class or B class amp, whatever that means.
The very expensive high-end amps and such have the lamest circuit designs? Hmm, either it's further proof that money doesn't always buy quality or we are paying a lot of money for lame stuff. The answer is probably both.

Wow! Your doing a book on this stuff? How long have you been a masochist? LOL! I'm joking, one has to be a bit touched in the head though to be in this hobby and those of us like myself who are in the hobby on both ends (modern gear and vintage) have to really be crazy. It's a fun crazy though ain't it?
Seriously though, yes, please let us know when the book is ready. It sounds like it will be very handy, especially as it will be in layman's terms for folks like myself! I also love the scientific and logic evidence you say will be included.
post #37 of 2598
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anubisrocks View Post

Just a thought: Why have to pay four digits on ICs where an adjustment in EQ or cross-over will do the trick since your coloring the sound with any of these methods anyway?
I'm not saying that coloring the sound is bad if the highs are too harsh or lows are all but not there or whatever the situation is.

Thats easy, its about a pure signal path. Most quality pres have no tone controls cause that circuit often adds negatives to the sound, an EQ is also another lnk in chain with negative results far too often. These both often take away or add more to the sound then one wants aswell. Use a cable to tame an aspect of sound and if its to ones liking then you have kept the signal as simple as possible, less is more. Cheers
post #38 of 2598
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Winer View Post

A properly designed power amplifier can output a lot of current, which is what's needed to charge the capacitance you'd have with long wires. So speaker wires in particular do not benefit from low capacitance, though as mcnarus said incompetent amps can be coerced to oscillate.
--Ethan

While my question was about IC's, you brought up another question for me regarding speaker wire.
How does one measure the capacitance of a cable?
Say I had a 8 to 10 foot length of this:
Cable Type: Loudspeaker cable
Conduit: High Purity, Oxygen-free Copper
Gauge: 14AWG
Strand count: 41 wires
Strand size: 0.254mm +/- 0.008
Twist type: Multi-twist, rope lay
Conductor resistance (20 ℃) Max: 8.62Ω/KM
Insulation resistance (20 ℃) Min: 0.75Ω/KM
CL2 rated
How would I make sure the capacitance was low?
post #39 of 2598
Quote:
Originally Posted by chadnliz View Post

Thats easy, its about a pure signal path. Most quality pres have no tone controls cause that circuit often adds negatives to the sound, an EQ is also another lnk in chain with negative results far too often. These both often take away or add more to the sound then one wants aswell. Use a cable to tame an aspect of sound and if its to ones liking then you have kept the signal as simple as possible, less is more. Cheers

If there is any active signal alteration in a cable (a big no-no for pros) then what is your proposed method for adjusting the cable length on a graded scale to achieve a particular percentage of FR db gain or loss without a negative impact on other FR?

This is one reason we use EQs.
post #40 of 2598
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chadnliz View Post

Thats easy, its about a pure signal path. Most quality pres have no tone controls cause that circuit often adds negatives to the sound, an EQ is also another lnk in chain with negative results far too often. These both often take away or add more to the sound then one wants aswell. Use a cable to tame an aspect of sound and if its to ones liking then you have kept the signal as simple as possible, less is more. Cheers

Forgive me if I'm a little slow on the uptake. So if I understand correctly, your saying that often times quality preamps or receivers have no tone controls and EQs don't have fine enough adjustment so as to not add or take away too much? So using a cable (I imagine at a fixed rate) to tame an aspect of the sound is the way to keep the signal as pure as possible. If what you say is true in the absolute, then I think I can see the sense in it.
I could also have this all wrong.
post #41 of 2598
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anubisrocks View Post

Forgive me if I'm a little slow on the uptake. So if I understand correctly, your saying that often times quality preamps or receivers have no tone controls and EQs don't have fine enough adjustment so as to not add or take away too much? So using a cable (I imagine at a fixed rate) to tame an aspect of the sound is the way to keep the signal as pure as possible. If what you say is true in the absolute, then I think I can see the sense in it.
I could also have this all wrong.

You can see it however you want but if I want to tame an aspect of my sound I would rather do it with a simple cable to a mid or tweeter in a biamp rig than do it with Eq or a Pre with tone controls (never likely to find its way to my main rig). In a biamp or tri, I can tame a tweeter with no affect on bass. That is how I think its best done.
post #42 of 2598
Quote:
Originally Posted by chadnliz View Post

You can see it however you want but if I want to tame an aspect of my sound I would rather do it with a simple cable to a mid or tweeter in a biamp rig than do it with Eq or a Pre with tone controls (never likely to find its way to my main rig). In a biamp or tri, I can tame a tweeter with no affect on bass. That is how I think its best done.

How do you "tame a tweeter" with a cable to it? Are you using a crossover or you just biamping a passive crossover and adjusting volume. I don't understand.
post #43 of 2598
Quote:


How do you "tame a tweeter" with a cable to it? Are you using a crossover or you just biamping a passive crossover and adjusting volume. I don't understand.

Presumably he uses a cable that (he thinks) has a rolled-off treble.
post #44 of 2598
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Bessinger View Post

How do you "tame a tweeter" with a cable to it?

It is a magical process, not unlike taming a shrew. Separate speaker wire changes all characteristics of a given driver, don't ya know?
post #45 of 2598
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

Presumably he uses a cable that (he thinks) has a rolled-off treble.

Not think, I know.
post #46 of 2598
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbx123 View Post

It is a magical process, not unlike taming a shrew. Separate speaker wire changes all characteristics of a given driver, don't ya know?

I am kind of slow
post #47 of 2598
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbx123 View Post

It is a magical process, not unlike taming a shrew. Separate speaker wire changes all characteristics of a given driver, don't ya know?

Yes, and there is never a good shrew around when you need one. LOL
post #48 of 2598
Now we need to contact each of the thousands of sound production companies and studios the world over and issue a "REMOVE YOUR EQ ASAP!! order.

The Lord only knows how so many engineers around the world for 50+ years could possibly have been deluded for so long about the use of EQs. Hopefully, Congress and the FTC will draft laws to preclude the manufacture, ownership and use of those acoustically evil EQs as they are a major detriment to sound production.

Next to the claims about sonic nirvana cables, cryogenic power cords, blue anti-vibration goop, and cable lifters, the anti-EQ claim is probably about the silliest "information" yet posted.
post #49 of 2598
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gizmologist View Post
Now we need to contact each of the thousands of sound production companies and studios the world over and issue a "REMOVE YOUR EQ ASAP!! order.

The Lord only knows how so many engineers around the world for 50+ years could possibly have been deluded for so long about the use of EQs. Hopefully, Congress and the FTC will draft laws to preclude the manufacture, ownership and use of those acoustically evil EQs as they are a major detriment to sound production.

Next to the claims about sonic nirvana cables, cryogenic power cords, blue anti-vibration goop, and cable lifters, the anti-EQ claim is probably about the silliest "information" yet posted.
What you cant understand through your sarcasm is that I have no problem how the music is made I just dont want to muck it up in my room.
post #50 of 2598
Quote:
Not think, I know.
Did you measure it? Have you measured the FR of your tweeter? How do you know the FR dip of the cable matches the FR rise of the tweeter?

Trying to adjust FR with cables is about the dumbest idea I've ever heard. It could be done, in a crude way, if you've done the measurements I've asked about. But it doesn't do anything an equalizer wouldn't do much, much better. And I really doubt you've done those measurements. For that matter, I doubt your cable really has an audible rolloff, unless you're using some really outre gear. I suspect what we're really dealing with here is bandwidth-limited ears attached to uncalibrated brain.
post #51 of 2598
Quote:
Originally Posted by chadnliz View Post
Not think, I know.
chadnliz, can you please explain how someone can tweak the treble, mids or bass and to what extent with audio cables? Is there a program I can plug in the info and get the answer?
post #52 of 2598
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anubisrocks View Post
While my question was about IC's, you brought up another question for me regarding speaker wire.
How does one measure the capacitance of a cable?
Say I had a 8 to 10 foot length of this:
Cable Type: Loudspeaker cable
Conduit: High Purity, Oxygen-free Copper
Gauge: 14AWG
Strand count: 41 wires
Strand size: 0.254mm +/- 0.008
Twist type: Multi-twist, rope lay
Conductor resistance (20 ℃) Max: 8.62Ω/KM
Insulation resistance (20 ℃) Min: 0.75Ω/KM
CL2 rated
How would I make sure the capacitance was low?
If you get quality brand name cable, it will have specifications for capacitance per meter. Here is a random example from Belden: http://www.belden.com/techdatas/metric/8471.pdf

"Nom. Capacitance Conductor to Conductor:
Capacitance (pF/m) :108.273"

So if you have a 10 foot/3m cable, you have 325 pf of capacitance. Note that this is the nominal value. Real cables may differ by some amount. In that case, you can measure its capacitance with an LCR meter (need to calibrate it first though to nullify its own capacitance for these small measurements).
post #53 of 2598
Seems to me that it would be easier to trim the treble by using a cable with a flat frequency response and adding a trim cap than to try to find a cable with just the right capacitance to do the job. Finding just the right cable must be a real b*tch. Not that I would do it either way...
post #54 of 2598
The EQ
post #55 of 2598
Quote:
Originally Posted by chadnliz View Post

What you cant understand through your sarcasm is that I have no problem how the music is made I just dont want to muck it up in my room.

The irony is that it is in fact your room itself which is profoundly mucking up the sound and you deny use of a powerful tool through which the presentation could become closer to how the music was made.

Your position is illogical and irrational and borne out of the silly audiophile fear of "mucking with the signal" while ignoring the simple truth that most of the signal path from media to brain does not consist of wires.

I suppose some people will just never grasp this concept? And I suppose I'll never quite understand why.
post #56 of 2598
How do you BOOST a particular frequency and attenuate others as no driver is fully linear in its response?(to the degree YOU wish to believe)

If you have a three way speaker do you use an active crossover (a form of EQ)with a multi channel amp or if passive, how do you calculate the cables' (3 from each channel to each cabinet) length for each driver? Would you calibrate each amps response curve separately?

Can you have coils of cable (on lifters of course) of varying gauges and lengths for each driver?

Inquiring minds want to know.
post #57 of 2598
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gizmologist View Post

How do you BOOST a particular frequency and attenuate others as no driver is fully linear in its response?(to the degree YOU wish to believe)

If you have a three way speaker do you use an active crossover (a form of EQ)with a multi channel amp or if passive, how do you calculate the cables' (3 from each channel to each cabinet) length for each driver? Would you calibrate each amps response curve separately?

Can you have coils of cable (on lifters of course) of varying gauges and lengths for each driver?

Inquiring minds want to know.

I was wondering that myself. LOL. I'm sorry, I have this funny picture in my head now. LOL!
post #58 of 2598
Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

Science, logic.....mmmmmmm

LOL.

Hey, your PM Inbox is full.

--Ethan
post #59 of 2598
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anubisrocks View Post

In my area there is a problem of RF interference at a point and I have experienced it on occasion with cheapo ICs (the "included" ones). The minute I switched to the Monoprice premiums, the problem was gone.

I can believe that the RF shielding of cheap wires might not be as good as more expensive wires. But good wire can be had for pennies a foot. If 3 pennies doesn't do it, maybe 20 will.

Quote:
The very expensive high-end amps and such have the lamest circuit designs? Hmm, either it's further proof that money doesn't always buy quality or we are paying a lot of money for lame stuff. The answer is probably both.

Not just power amps but loudspeakers too. I once saw a $13,000 (the price I seem to recall) amp blow up because it was turned on with nothing connected to its input. Another time I saw a $6,000 mono toob amp the owner told me blew up when the speaker wire accidentally fell out. He had to send it all the way back to Europe for repair. Sheesh. Any competent pro grade power amp can handle stuff like that and worse without flinching. And will probably sound better too.

--Ethan
post #60 of 2598
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anubisrocks View Post

How would I make sure the capacitance was low?

If the wire has no spec for that, you'll have to measure it. You can buy capacitance meters. I don't have one of those, so I'd run a 20 KHz tone through a longish length and measure the loss at the far end compared to the driving end. You need to insert a resistor in series at the driving end too. But this is easy to do with anything that can play a test tone, plus a voltmeter that responds to 20 KHz. Or test at 10 KHz.

--Ethan
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