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OPTOMA ML500 LED 1280x800 - Page 15

post #421 of 680
As part of the ML500's audition in my theater, I repeated the butterfly comparison setup that I had tried with the Vivitek Qumi. This is a scenario where you have two projectors oriented to the screen, but each unit is only projecting onto half of it, so you can see both units at the same time on the same screen. In this setup one of the projectors is configured to display the mirror image of the other, so that each one is showing the same image at the same time.

During this process I took a few pictures, and here are two that stood out. The first one shows the difference in red color detail between the ML500 and the Sharp XV-Z3000. Note however that the bulb in the Sharp is at about 4000 hours, so this isn't a fair comparison.



This second shot shows the problem with the CA blurring the image of the ML500. Even though the Sharp is much dimmer than the Optoma, you can see in the details of the dress and faces that the Sharp is showing more detail. And this isn't solely related to the diamond pixels. In the same setup, the Qumi (which also has diamond pixels) showed just as much detail as the Sharp on my screen.

post #422 of 680
Thanks RenStimpy for the effort and info. Much appreciated from here. I'm on the verge in purchasing one of these clones. Your opinions has pushed me more over to the Acer or wait for NEC decision. Thx!

Now to hear more about the noise level and picture quality of the Acer.

Out of curiosity, where will you go from here, after returning your Optoma?
post #423 of 680
Quote:
Originally Posted by RenStimpy View Post


Cons
  • Perhaps my unit is a lemon, but the CA on it is abysmal all the way across the screen. Green is off by at least two pixels, blue is off between 1/2 - 1 pixel, and red is off by about 1/2 a pixel. The CA results in a soft and blurry image that no amount of focusing can fix. I thought my Qumi had bad CA, but this unit is worse. On my screen the Qumi appeared much sharper and revealed more detail in the source.
  • Like the Qumi, the ML500 has more posterization than my Sharp and so things in motion appear to have less detail.

Ultimately I am going to return this to the store, primarily due to the CA problems, but also because of the delays in focusing. But I will keep it around for a few more days if anyone has questions that I can answer.

Below a capture of a cross-hatch pattern on the Qumi, to demonstrate the CA issues my unit has. Note that this was taken in the center of the screen, so the CA isn't isolated to the edges.

The above 2 problems are to do with square to diamond pixel processing.

The apparent CA problem is due to how the square information converts to diamond information. The algorithm used by TI will never generate a clean looking horizontal or vertical line when looking at the pixel level. The pixels along the edges of a line are not black or white, but some weird shade of magenta and cyan. You could have a lens with perfect resoution (MTF = 1) and the image processing artifacts are still present. You can verify that it is not lens CA by looking at the jagged edge of a vertical or horizontal line, the colored edges are jagged, which means it is a image processing oddity.

The additional blurriness could probably be due to a lens issue, not necessarily CA, but the idea is that in addtion to lens imperfections due to manufacturing, in a diamond DMD projector, the image is always processed and the result is always a distortion of the original input image

The posterization is due to the weighting then the averaging and finally rounding of pixel values in integer space. When processing pixels using integers (how most real time imaging systems work), a lot of image operations will introduce quantization errors unless the input bit depth, and the intermediate results bit depth are higher than the output bit depth. 24 bits in probably won't get you true 24 bits out, the color space will be somewhat truncated due to the rounding and incremental quantization error of each stage, and this results in posterization. In my opinion, diamond to square operation should really be done in 30 bit or 36 bit integer or 32bit floating point. Of course, not many consumer systems use 30 bit color on output, but I think at least the 24bit inputs could be promoted to 30 bit numbers internally in the chip and then rounded down to 24bit at the very last stage of output to minimize these incremental quantization errors.
post #424 of 680
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raine0 View Post

Out of curiosity, where will you go from here, after returning your Optoma?

Personally I'm a big fan of 3d, so for my theater the Optoma HD3300 is in the running. But I would like to wait to hear more about the Acer and NEC models, in case they use better components. At this point I really, really don't want to hang another bulb based projector in my room.
post #425 of 680
********* 10/6/2011 Edit
I have redone this comparison and the ML500 is sharper than I thought, see my follow-up post:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post21048107
*********
Quote:
Originally Posted by anomaly123 View Post

The above 2 problems are to do with square to diamond pixel processing.

First I just want to say thank you for all of the great technical gems you have provided the forum. To me at least the information has been invaluable and very well received.

Now I don't want to come across as disputing your point, since I think I understand your post enough to agree that the processing from square to diamond pixels would result in some lost detail. However from my experience in my theater, I would guess that this processing is not the biggest factor in play here with the soft image of Optoma ML500. The only reason I say this is because I was very happy with the sharpness of the Vivitek Qumi which has the same pixel layout. Just considering the diamond pixel units I have seen, the Qumi was way sharper than the ML500 I'm currently testing. In fact, if the Optoma was at least as sharp as the Qumi, I would probably keep it.

Perhaps I can demonstrate this with two shots of a similar scene on both PJs.

First up is a close-up on the Qumi, note the texture of the wall in the background, as well as the sharpness of the character's profiles:



When comparing this same scene, but not the same frame, on the Optoma ML500, you can see there is much less detail in the wall and the edges of the faces are indistinct:



It is just my opinion, but I think most of the blurriness in the Optoma's image can be attributed to the lens, and not the diamond pixel processing. This is only based on how much better the Qumi looks which uses the same processing.
post #426 of 680
Quote:
Originally Posted by RenStimpy View Post

First I just want to say thank you for all of the great technical gems you have provided the forum. To me at least the information has been invaluable and very well received.

Now I don't want to come across as disputing your point, since I think I understand your post enough to agree that the processing from square to diamond pixels would result in some lost detail. However from my experience in my theater, I would guess that this processing is not the biggest factor in play here with the soft image of Optoma ML500. The only reason I say this is because I was very happy with the sharpness of the Vivitek Qumi which has the same pixel layout. Just considering the diamond pixel units I have seen, the Qumi was way sharper than the ML500 I'm currently testing. In fact, if the Optoma was at least as sharp as the Qumi, I would probably keep it.

Perhaps I can demonstrate this with two shots of a similar scene on both PJs.

First up is a close-up on the Qumi, note the texture of the wall in the background, as well as the sharpness of the character's profiles:

When comparing this same scene, but not the same frame, on the Optoma ML500, you can see there is much less detail in the wall and the edges of the faces are indistinct:

It is just my opinion, but I think most of the blurriness in the Optoma's image can be attributed to the lens, and not the diamond pixel processing. This is only based on how much better the Qumi looks which uses the same processing.

Thanks for the comparison, I'm tempted to get a ML500 and then pulling it apart to check
post #427 of 680
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnakfhe View Post

Good work. I would like to thank you for not reading the previous post I made, it's right on this page up top. I clearly tell you the following:

what kind of adapter do i need to do that? btw good find!
post #428 of 680
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnakfhe View Post

Good work. I would like to thank you for not reading the previous post I made, it's right on this page up top. I clearly tell you the following:

Hi,
Sorry for not reading your post.
Thanks for the clarification about no audio output in ML500
bye, bye, ML500.
I will wait for the K330.
post #429 of 680
Quote:
Originally Posted by uanemabell View Post

what kind of adapter do i need to do that? btw good find!

I'm not sure what you want to do, but be advised the optoma ml500 does not allow you to project a large screen size (playing xbox hdmi) and have more than 2watt audio speaker.

Ml500 does not support audio out.

What's worse, the unit does not ever reach full focus. There is a point after 20+ min the focus gets kinda better but never reachs what it should be.
post #430 of 680
I've never had a projector and I'm planning to get my first pj and i read a lot of good news about led pj's.

But the to get a nice quality image and to get a nice size on screen with sharp picture with led pj's at price under $1200 is complicate, and i read more, Probably in 2 years they will make a nice led full HD pj's in a good price.

So the old bulb pj's with all bad news about it still have a quality image on nice big size screen.

I'll buy my first pj and in 2 or 3 years i'll change it for a 1080p led when prices go down.


What's better to have now and for the next 2 or 3 years?? Led or Bulb???

I'm looking better quality - Price under $1200

Any advice...
post #431 of 680
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ir bass View Post

I've never had a projector and I'm planning to get my first pj and i read a lot of good news about led pj's.

But the to get a nice quality image and to get a nice size on screen with sharp picture with led pj's at price under $1200 is complicate, and i read more, Probably in 2 years they will make a nice led full HD pj's in a good price.

So the old bulb pj's with all bad news about it still have a quality image on nice big size screen.

I'll buy my first pj and in 2 or 3 years i'll change it for a 1080p led when prices go down.


What's better to have now and for the next 2 or 3 years?? Led or Bulb???

I'm looking better quality - Price under $1200

Any advice...

Umm........ what?
post #432 of 680
Looks like he is speaking a 512bit encrypted language, let me decode the cypher for you.

I think he wants help to pick a projector to tide him,her over for the next two to three years until 1080p led projectors get cheeper and more common. As it stands right now he thinks that he will have to spend aproxamatly 1200+.

What can he get now for less than that, with. Good specs.
post #433 of 680
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ir bass View Post

What's better to have now and for the next 2 or 3 years?? Led or Bulb???

I'm looking better quality - Price under $1200

Any advice...

Bulb.
post #434 of 680
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ir bass View Post

I've never had a projector and I'm planning to get my first pj and i read a lot of good news about led pj's.

But the to get a nice quality image and to get a nice size on screen with sharp picture with led pj's at price under $1200 is complicate, and i read more, Probably in 2 years they will make a nice led full HD pj's in a good price.

So the old bulb pj's with all bad news about it still have a quality image on nice big size screen.

I'll buy my first pj and in 2 or 3 years i'll change it for a 1080p led when prices go down.


What's better to have now and for the next 2 or 3 years?? Led or Bulb???

I'm looking better quality - Price under $1200

Any advice...

I would cheek out 720p/1080p projector reviews on Amazon
both positive and negative. a good idea would also be a trip to
http://www.projectorreviews.com/ pay attention to the db noise level
if quiet matters to you

would stay a way from these expensive gadgets leds projectors
and wait for a quality product like a 720p with class optic
quiet and optimiced for homecinema
post #435 of 680
Quote:
Originally Posted by anomaly123 View Post

Thanks for the comparison, I'm tempted to get a ML500 and then pulling it apart to check

What exactly would you check?

And how would u fix it. I hate this blurry 720p display
post #436 of 680
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnakfhe View Post

What exactly would you check?

And how would u fix it. I hate this blurry 720p display

A lot of aspects, mainly optics system design quality, electronic system design quality. The investigation generally isn't useful for the average consumer because usually nothing further can be done to improve things.

I just take notes and then have a good laugh during happy hour if I find something bad
post #437 of 680
Quote:
Originally Posted by anomaly123 View Post

A lot of aspects, mainly optics system design quality, electronic system design quality. The investigation generally isn't useful for the average consumer because usually nothing further can be done to improve things.

I just take notes and then have a good laugh during happy hour if I find something bad

Do i smell a youtube video? Please Please Please, im to chicken SH1T to open mine. Thank you.
post #438 of 680
Guys.

Just got of the phone with Optoma USA technical support.

I was asking about the missing features for the media player, the ones that are shown on page 8 of the user manual but do not work.

These features include fast forward, rewind, and media player onscreen menu that are shown on page 8 but do not work!

Anyway, i was told (bull sh1t) that they promise to have a brand new firmware on the optoma website for the ml500 next week.

I hope he was not lying, time will show.
LL
post #439 of 680
Any one else notice that the ML500 only has 1GB memory, but the website says two GB memory? WTF.

"2GB on-board memory; SD card slot allows for memory expansion up to 32GB"
http://www.optomausa.com/products/detail/ML500
post #440 of 680
Hello,

Tonight I have to buy a Projector.
But I am not sure if i should choose the optoma ML500 or the Vivitek Qumi.

I need it for a home theater in my house.

I heard a lot of complains about qumi focus issues and failured equipments from origin. ML500 looks like a good option but in this forum you are talking very badly about it.

Any sugestion about this?

Ty and Brgrds
post #441 of 680
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raine0 View Post

Just trying to compare the noise between the Optoma and Acer. HenryDudley described the noise from the Acer as "I guess maybe take the fan noise your average laptop makes with the fans on full and then double or triple it." Could that be taken as a pretty accurate description of the Optoma as well?

It way louder than that. Also, it makes vibrations.

You can get a lot of noise when your running in Brite mode, and high altitude mode. This runs the fans at a faster speed, trust me you dont want to hear how loud it is.

Its the vibrations that kill me, it feels like the projector is going to take off. even with the three thick half inch rubber (soft rubber) feet under the projector the desk still vibrates.
post #442 of 680
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcho View Post

Hello,

Tonight I have to buy a Projector.
But I am not sure if i should choose the optoma ML500 or the Vivitek Qumi.

I need it for a home theater in my house.

I heard a lot of complains about qumi focus issues and failured equipments from origin. ML500 looks like a good option but in this forum you are talking very badly about it.

Any sugestion about this?

Ty and Brgrds

its your choice, get what ever you feel is right for your setup.

but, check out the Acer k330 if you need audio out for a sound system ML500 is missing this, or wait for the NEC NP-L50W I heard good things bout it like the lens is a 1.4 to 1 unlike the ML500 1.6 to 1 which makes the image look blury (stupid lens) and its got a 2 year warranty all the others like Optoma only have a 1 year. (but also missing audio out).
post #443 of 680
I understand, unfortunately my time window will finish tonight, and I have to chose one Pj.
I checked in amazon and k330 is not available yet in USA.

Firstly I was going to buy the qumi but then I heard about the focus issues and I was afraid about it.
Then I switched to ML500 (wow is 500lumens) but then I found this thread and the impression about it is too bad.

I also heard about sync issue on ML500, re focus the equipment is annoying but sync issues are even worth.

Ty and BRGRDS
post #444 of 680
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcho View Post

I understand, unfortunately my time window will finish tonight, and I have to chose one Pj.
I checked in amazon and k330 is not available yet in USA.

Firstly I was going to buy the qumi but then I heard about the focus issues and I was afraid about it.
Then I switched to ML500 (wow is 500lumens) but then I found this thread and the impression about it is too bad.

I also heard about sync issue on ML500, re focus the equipment is annoying but sync issues are even worth.

Ty and BRGRDS


You remind me of Cinderella, this is your story.

Cinderella: Why, it's like a dream. A wonderful dream come true. All these projectors.
Fairy Godmother: Yes, my child, but like all dreams, well, I'm afraid this can't last forever. You have only until midnight, and—-
Cinderella: Midnight? Oh, thank you—-
Fairy Godmother: Oh, now, just a minute. You must understand, my dear: On the stroke of tweleve, the spell will be broken, and everything will be as it was before. You will relize that led projectors are not ready for market at this price range and they are still in there infancy.
Cinderella: Oh, I understand, but... it's more than I ever hoped for. Thank you for allowing me to own a small flashlight that can shine colors that look like a unfocused blurry image.
post #445 of 680
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcho View Post

I understand, unfortunately my time window will finish tonight, and I have to chose one Pj.
I checked in amazon and k330 is not available yet in USA.

Firstly I was going to buy the qumi but then I heard about the focus issues and I was afraid about it.
Then I switched to ML500 (wow is 500lumens) but then I found this thread and the impression about it is too bad.

I also heard about sync issue on ML500, re focus the equipment is annoying but sync issues are even worth.

Ty and BRGRDS

If you are looking for a home theater projector, you should buy one. These clones are not home theater projectors. If you want to sacrifice a home theater experience for a business projector, you can do this with these clones.

I have owned many projectors and this is the first business projector that I have owned. I knew actually what I was getting when I bought it. And it was also the cheapest, so I kept that in mind. I bought it for use as a tv when a nba or nfl game was not on. When my little nephew or cousins want to watch their kid shows, and the internet on a 120in screen. Yeah it can be annoying when it loses sync, but 5 secs is not that bad for it to find hdmi source again. But I don't treat it like a HT projector. If you are comparing it to a $700 or less projector, then I say it will be a good buy. If you are comparing it to a $1500+ 1080p projector, you are not going to be happy. I have a JVC RS40 and a RS55 on the way, so I know that a $650-700 business projector is no where near what most people want. Some want $10,000 quality out of $600, it just not reality. You get what you pay for
post #446 of 680
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnakfhe View Post

Its the vibrations that kill me, it feels like the projector is going to take off. even with the three thick half inch rubber (soft rubber) feet under the projector the desk still vibrates.

I don't know how much you're exaggerating, but my Acer doesn't really vibrate at all. I've also not had it lose sync, but I guess this might be down to devices it's connected to.

It is too noisy with eco mode off though. You can't get away with making something that loud by just calling it a business projector. It's too loud for that with eco off.
post #447 of 680
Yep, I know.
I always wanted a pj but the bulb life time was always a huge stop.
I don't wish to have a disco pj in my playroom.
I need it just for showing dvds at night, I will also buy a Iomega multimedia HD. So it is not that critical usage.
I have a last question about focus issue, ones it get blur after 15 or 20 minutes, the adjustment is definitive, or I have to re adjust it every 20 minutes?

One last point. I will take this pj to Argentina, that is the reason why I am so concern with the products issues, I think it will not be very well supported over this latitudes.

Ty and Bgrds
post #448 of 680
To quote "One last point. I will take this pj to Argentina, that is the reason why I am so concern with the products issues, I think it will not be very well supported over this latitudes." This sentence right here is the reason I would buy nothing other than something available locally whether it be via a brick and mortar store or an online vendor that services your region. There is never a guarantee of getting a defect free product, so last thing I'd want to do is buy a product I could not get support for, where I live.
post #449 of 680
For the last few days I have been wondering if I truly gave the ML500 a fair comparison. Based on looking at the picture I posted from POTR 2, the ML500 seemed pretty bad, almost like it wasn't HD. But thinking back to my viewings, I don't remember the picture always being that undefined. Wondering if I had made a mistake, I decided to view some scenes from POTR 2 on the ML500 again, and see if I could get a better image on the screen.

I'm happy to say that after adjusting the focus and placement of the PJ that I was able to get a sharper image than before. My guess is that when I originally had taken the picture, the focus either drifted or the PJ had shifted on its very temporary mount.

In order to correct any false impressions that I may have instilled, I have repeated the comparison of the Qumi and ML500 below. I still think the Qumi is sharper (note the details in the rock wall), but now the difference is not so striking. To make things easier I have put both images side by side so you don't need to scroll to compare. The Qumi is on the left and the ML500 is on the right.

post #450 of 680
RenStimpy, after having the Optoma for a few days, what do you think of it now? Do you still find the picture too soft? And also, I read that people complain about CA with this pj, but is it really that noticeable when viewing a movie?
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