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Equipping a Dinner Theater w/ Cinema Sound (Blueprints Included) - Page 6

post #151 of 167
6/27/11 at 6:53am
What you can do is invert the speakers so the HF drivers are on the bottom and lower them so the people sitting on the floor level can get great sound. The high frequencies are very directional and you may benefit from this small change.
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post #152 of 167
6/27/11 at 9:58am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ifor View Post

Stop thinking about this.

You've asked before and everyone said that it was a horrible idea for many reasons. Using 2 speakers for a single channel will not bring a better outcome but will produce worse sound.

I knew "no" was the answer when I was planning on putting the speakers on the sides and below the screen. My most recent question was regarding an array in line behind the screen. If the answer is still no, then I can accept that. I thought the question was different than before.
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post #153 of 167
6/27/11 at 11:19am
Definitely NO! Do not put two speakers per channel for the LCRs. Inverting them can work for coverage. You know the angles check what works best.
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post #154 of 167
6/27/11 at 1:39pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobL View Post
Definitely NO! Do not put two speakers per channel for the LCRs. Inverting them can work for coverage. You know the angles check what works best.
Roger that.
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post #155 of 167
6/27/11 at 3:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dutchswan0311 View Post

Is either of the Daytons or DVCs considered "better" than the MFWs?

The DVC's have a little more power handling capability (350w vs. 225w) and little more xmax (15.1mm vs 13mm). That gives it a slight edge over the MFW, but not too much.

The RS HF has a better motor design using shorting rings and is more aesthetically pleasing. Neither of those help in a front loaded horn design though. Overall it handles twice the power (500w vs. 225w), but has similar xmax (14mm vs. 13mm). Performance potential will again be slightly better than the MFW for your application.

The higher power handling of the RS HF can be useful in the upper frequency range (above 30hz) when running out of excursion isn't going to be a problem, but only if you have the available power. For example if you only have around 250-300w of power available per sub, you won't see a performance increase with the RS HF. However, if you have 800w available, the MFW will soon let out the magic smoke and going with something like the RS HF (or even something better) would provide a noticeable improvement in performance above 25-30hz.
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post #156 of 167
6/27/11 at 3:57pm
Thread Starter 
Is Dayton Model # RSS390HF-4 what I am looking for?
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post #157 of 167
6/27/11 at 5:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dutchswan0311 View Post

Is Dayton Model # RSS390HF-4 what I am looking for?

Yup, that's the one.
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=295-468

To quote lilmike here http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...n#post20429807

"@ crabra:

The Dayton DVC works fine.
The Ref HF does too. The Exodus Tempest X2 is a monster in this.

As it turns out, lots of drivers work well in this horn, it sort of worked out that way. I really did design it for the MFW-15."

The tempest driver is no longer available...
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post #158 of 167
6/27/11 at 5:13pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Looneybomber View Post

Yup, that's the one.
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=295-468

To quote lilmike here http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...n#post20429807

"@ crabra:

The Dayton DVC works fine.
The Ref HF does too. The Exodus Tempest X2 is a monster in this.

As it turns out, lots of drivers work well in this horn, it sort of worked out that way. I really did design it for the MFW-15."

The tempest driver is no longer available...

I was wondering about that...I couldn't find a "tempest x2" anywhere online. After further research, I am definitely going with the RS HF.
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post #159 of 167
6/27/11 at 6:46pm
As shown in this picture, excursion will be a problem for the Dayton HF <22hz and 35-45hz.
The black line shows the excursion of the driver (MFW) with 250w of power. Frequency is along the x-axis. The Dayton HF will have a similar excursion profile due to the horn and is limited to 14mm with a hard bottom somewhere beyond that. But I don't know if it's 18mm, 22mm, 1000mm... Suffice it to say, staying within xmax is the game plan.


You'd have to have lilmike model the HF to see how much power it can take at 40hz because with a lowpass XO set in the low 20's, that will be the only area it'll be excursion limited (nearly the same limitation the MFW driver has). Maybe 325w? Otherwise, it should be able to handle 500w everywhere else.
*edit* It's worth noting that at the excursion minimums (~27 and 63hz), the lack of movement means there's little air being moved past the voice coil and greatly increases the chances of thermal failure if pushed. In layman's terms, don't feed it gobs of power.

I'd post F20 directed questions in your build thread. There will be other people more familiar with that horn that can help you out.
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post #160 of 167
6/29/11 at 3:34pm
Thread Starter 
I think I will invert the LCR, that will help with coverage on the main level, as the 40 degree vertical has no problem hitting the balcony.

Since I cannot proceed with the F20 builds until the drivers come in, I started on the 4pi speakers. I will post pictures later. I used Arauco 23/32 7ply on the first one, which is a soft pine. Might I face any issues using softwood for the enclosure of the 4pi?
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post #161 of 167
6/29/11 at 10:53pm
You could get some harmonics that could emanate from the cabinet, but I don't know, I've never used that wood before. If it's something you're worried about, you can always brace more and use an inner, or outer 1/2" shell of MDF to make it more inert.
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post #162 of 167
6/30/11 at 4:19am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Looneybomber View Post

You could get some harmonics that could emanate from the cabinet, but I don't know, I've never used that wood before. If it's something you're worried about, you can always brace more and use an inner, or outer 1/2" shell of MDF to make it more inert.

Actually, now that I have had the opportunity to work with it a little more, I think I like this Arauco. The softer wood makes it easier to sand to the shape I want (rounded corners, etc.). There were almost no voids, and Wayne's instructions call for cross bracing side to side and front to back between the drivers. I will post pictures in the DIY section later.
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post #163 of 167
6/30/11 at 8:32am
3 axis bracing is best, and in some cases unnecessary. However, if you have large panels and flimsy wood (not saying you do), it just may be a must.



Or, if you build cabinets like me (above) due to a lack of clamps, a strong and sturdy brace system is a must to keep the cabinet from falling apart when gluing on side panels.
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post #164 of 167
6/30/11 at 8:59am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Looneybomber View Post

3 axis bracing is best, and in some cases unnecessary. However, if you have large panels and flimsy wood (not saying you do), it just may be a must.



Or, if you build cabinets like me (above) due to a lack of clamps, a strong and sturdy brace system is a must to keep the cabinet from falling apart when gluing on side panels.

Don't your screws pull the wood tight enough to eliminate the need for clamps? The 4pi is 18.5 x14.25 x 26.5 and I did not use any clamps or weights. I just put PL on the edges, and then screwed them flush, wiping the excess PL. I counter sunk the drywall screws so that I could fill in the gap and sand them smooth/invisible.

Tonight I will install the 2 axis bracing (what Wayne calls for). I purchased 4' x 2" x 3/4" red oak boards for this. I am not sure if these need to be screwed in, ur just fit snugly with PL on the ends. I don't think the instructions provided guidance on screwing the cross bracing.
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post #165 of 167
6/30/11 at 1:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dutchswan0311 View Post

Don't your screws pull the wood tight enough to eliminate the need for clamps? The 4pi is 18.5 x14.25 x 26.5 and I did not use any clamps or weights. I just put PL on the edges, and then screwed them flush, wiping the excess PL. I counter sunk the drywall screws so that I could fill in the gap and sand them smooth/invisible.

I didn't use any screws since I was using the plywood's veneer and not veneering over it. Originally that sub pictured was just going to be a test enclosure for taking measurements only so I didn't care about putting a high quality veneer over it. A couple years later I rounded over the edges, threw on some stain and some poly.


The sub pictured is around 18.5 x 19.25 x 24" (exterior) give or take due to a sketchy memory. I still tried to keep my bracing within 8-10" apart, but didn't brace the bottom panel as much as I would have liked.
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post #166 of 167
7/8/11 at 9:18am
Thread Starter 
Click Here to see the progress of my F20 and 4pi builds. :-)
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post #167 of 167
12/9/12 at 5:30pm
Thread Starter 
I forgot that my path towards workable solutions in developing the sound system for our winery's dinner theater started in this thread. I am not sure if anyone is still subscribed to this old thread, but noticed old "faces" that have not been around in the newer build thread. Many of you here contributed to us being where we are today, and so I wanted to invite you all to check out our latest updates by clicking here. In any case, below is a photo and some stats. I am also inviting those on the AVS Forum who helped us along the way to a New Year's Eve bash we are throwing. RSVP via private message if you are interested in attending. Cheers!

LCR: Upgraded 4pis behind an AT Screen powered by Crown XLS2000 x 3

Surrounds: Twelve 1pis in a 7.2 configuration powered by Crown XLS1000 x 3

LFE: Four F20 subs integrated into the baffle wall powered by Crown XLS1000 (per pair)

Baffle wall: 14' wide, 13' tall, 30" deep (at the base), 22" deep at LCR depth. Front of baffle wall lined with Linacoustic RC insulation behind the AT screen flush with the LCRs, which have the L/R channels angled in to create a sweet spot 2/3 the length of the room.

AT Screen: Center Stage XD by SeymourAV @ 182" on the diagonal at a 16:9 aspect ratio bordered by 5.5" of triple black velvet.

AVR: Onkyo 709

Projector: BenQ SH960 (Order Pending)


Edited by dutchswan0311 - 12/9/12 at 5:38pm
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