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1080p60 per eye 3D over HDMI 1.4a will be possible in 2012 - Page 5

post #121 of 149
Richard, I think 3D devices with 1080p60 support will not appear without new HDMI standard.

They planned to release it in "mid 2012".

http://www.hdmiforum.org/Documents/2011_10_31_HDMI_Forum_Orientation_FINAL.pdf
Quote:
Goals
Develop feature set for HDMI Specification v2.0, with the intent to release the next version of the specification in mid-2012.

Then in "late 2012"

http://www.hdmiforum.org/faq.aspx
Quote:
When does the HDMI Forum expect to release the next version of the HDMI Specification?
The HDMI Forum Members and the Board of Directors intend to have the next version of the HDMI Specification available for release sometime in late-2012.

When does the HDMI Forum expect work to begin on the next version of the HDMI Specification?
The Technology Working Group is currently working on the next version of the HDMI Specification with a late-2012 target release date.

Absolutely no news since then. Zero. It looks like we have to wait another year.
Edited by Ilya Volk - 9/13/12 at 9:49am
post #122 of 149
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilya Volk View Post

Richard, I think 3D devices with 1080p60 support will not appear without new HDMI standard.
They planned to release it in "mid 2012".
http://www.hdmiforum.org/Documents/2011_10_31_HDMI_Forum_Orientation_FINAL.pdf
300 MHz HDMI chips are capable of 1080p60 Frame Packing and can be found in several current consumer products. The need for more bandwidth with the next HDMI specification is due to 2160p (also called 4K). Here is a link to a post that I made on this subject from several months ago and here is a link to a YouTube video of the CES 2012 HDMI press conference (starting at 11:40 in the video) where it was announced that the next HDMI specification would support 2160p60. HDMI is not currently capable of 2160p60 since it requires four times the bandwidth of 1080p60 and twice the bandwidth of 1080p60 Frame Packing.
post #123 of 149
Quote:
300 MHz HDMI chips are capable of 1080p60 Frame Packing and can be found in several current consumer products. The need for more bandwidth with the next HDMI specification is due to 2160p (also called 4K).

Richard, I've read this thread and saw the video from HDMI press conference.

Yes, the HDMI chips with enough bandwidth are already available, more than one year.
The question is why we still don't see new TVs/projectors supporting FullHD 3D@60 over HDMI? It's been a lot of time, why are manufacturers still do not use these 300 MHz chips?

In my opinon, it looks like they are still waiting for the new HDMI spec.
post #124 of 149
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilya Volk View Post

Richard, I've read this thread and saw the video from HDMI press conference.
Yes, the HDMI chips with enough bandwidth are already available, more than one year.
The question is why we still don't see new TVs/projectors supporting FullHD 3D@60 over HDMI?
In my opinion it may just be an issue of development time. From what I have read it is common for the design of TVs to be finished a year before they start being sold to consumers. This to allow for the amount of time needed for testing the design (such as the entire video processing chain), shipping components between factories, mass production of the product, and than shipping the product to the various countries where it will be sold. As such 2012 3D TVs were designed a year ahead of when they were sold and as seen in this Silicon Image press release the first 300 MHz HDMI chips from Silicon Image were announced on May 24, 2011. And important issues for 300 MHz HDMI chips such as mass production time and price may not have been known for months after they started sampling.

Now as for why we have seen video cards that used 300 MHz HDMI chips it is because they can literally just be added to a graphics card which makes for a much quicker process. As for the Blu-ray players with 4K output since they are simply using 4K upscaling chips that connect to 4K HDMI chips the design process is simple compared to a TV. AV receivers are more complex but many are simpler than a TV and some of the AV receivers released this year that could do 4K over HDMI only supported it for upscaling/output. As such I am hoping that the lack of 3D TVs this year that could accept 1080p60 Frame Packing was due to their development time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilya Volk View Post

In my opinon, it looks like they are still waiting for the new HDMI spec.
Well in terms of the vast majority of 2013 3D TVs the CE companies have already finished designing them. They either used 300 MHz HDMI chips or they did not.
post #125 of 149
So again I have to ask - what is the purpose of HDMI chips that can do 1080x60P per eye 3D when there is no content like that? It's just like HDMI.org saying that HDMI 1.3 was capable of handling Deep Color.
post #126 of 149
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

So again I have to ask - what is the purpose of HDMI chips that can do 1080x60P per eye 3D when there is no content like that?
Well now that there are video cards capable of 1080p60 Frame Packing output HTPCs can certainly do it.
post #127 of 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post

Well now that there are video cards capable of 1080p60 Frame Packing output HTPCs can certainly do it.

Are there any PC 3D games that use 1080x60P FP?
post #128 of 149
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

Are there any PC 3D games that use 1080x60P FP?
As long as the PC game can render correctly in 3D than it is only an issue of whether the computer is powerful enough to render at that frame rate. There have been 1080p120 3D computer monitors on the market since 2009 that used dual-link DVI (more recent models support it over DisplayPort as well). Here is a link to an article from tomshardware that did a comparison between the 3D systems used by AMD and NVIDIA.
post #129 of 149
I have been playing Call of Duty and Portal 2 in 3D with my dual stack passive projector set and my filter set in 1080p 60fps for a while now with two optoma projectors and my custom gaming PC with an Nvidia quadro dual DVI card. if i had better hardware the games could easily do faster FPS.
post #130 of 149
The new Sony ES high end receiver line for 2012 does NOT support 1080p60 3D passthrough in Frame Packing mode according to manual, even though it supports 4K passthrough!. I wonder about the HX950 TV.

This is seriously going to suck for next gen consoles. I wonder if that's why they're being pushed back so much (Sony and MS at least). I can only imagine next gen consoles will do 1080p at 60FPS for all content, so having to drop to 30FPS for 3D content would be harsh.
post #131 of 149
Speaking of which, I'd like to know of one CONFIRMED receiver than can do the 1080p60 Frame Packing passthrough. I don't think the Yamaha receivers can actually do it, even with 4K, as my Sony ES receiver made last month with 4K passthrough can't do it, according to manual. It can only do 1080p30 with FP.
post #132 of 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post

As long as the PC game can render correctly in 3D than it is only an issue of whether the computer is powerful enough to render at that frame rate. There have been 1080p120 3D computer monitors on the market since 2009 that used dual-link DVI (more recent models support it over DisplayPort as well). Here is a link to an article from tomshardware that did a comparison between the 3D systems used by AMD and NVIDIA.

Ok - but you have been promoting this HDMI 300Mhz chip and it's capabilities. Dual-link DVI is a whole different animal.
post #133 of 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flavius View Post

The new Sony ES high end receiver line for 2012 does NOT support 1080p60 3D passthrough in Frame Packing mode according to manual, even though it supports 4K passthrough!. I wonder about the HX950 TV.
This is seriously going to suck for next gen consoles. I wonder if that's why they're being pushed back so much (Sony and MS at least). I can only imagine next gen consoles will do 1080p at 60FPS for all content, so having to drop to 30FPS for 3D content would be harsh.

It gets worse than that. Just think of all the receivers and BD players people are buying now and previously. When they find out they will have to upgrade again because HDMI.org will be releasing a new version (1.5?) later this year that will deal with 4K 48 and 60 fps. Even the new 84" 4K TVs from LG and Sony can't do those. Only 24 and 30 fps.
post #134 of 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

It gets worse than that. Just think of all the receivers and BD players people are buying now and previously. When they find out they will have to upgrade again because HDMI.org will be releasing a new version (1.5?) later this year that will deal with 4K 48 and 60 fps. Even the new 84" 4K TVs from LG and Sony can't do those. Only 24 and 30 fps.

I just spent $600 on a new ES receiver and pre-ordered a 65HX950 TV... neither of which will likely be able to do 1080p60 Frame Packing. If the next gen of Sony and MS consoles CAN, I will be royally pissed. $6000 and I can't even do 60FPS 3D.

I might as well give up on 1080p60 3D completely right now and hope I can get it in another 4 or 5 years when I upgrade to a 70"+ OLED. rolleyes.gif
post #135 of 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

Are there any PC 3D games that use 1080x60P FP?
All of them can in the same way Nvidia lets them do 720x60p FP. As i understand it, the 224mhz of the current HDMI chip just isn't fast enough to shovel all that pixel data fast enough. So the speed of the processor is the only limitation. I don't understand why any of this stuff can't be totally backwards compatible.

Interesting to note the framerate difference between 1080p and 720p using 3D. Its just a huge waste of technology potential. Its really sad to me. Im putting off playing games because I keep wondering if the new chips will be incorporated soon.


Edited by tory40 - 9/23/12 at 11:36am
post #136 of 149
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flavius View Post

The new Sony ES high end receiver line for 2012 does NOT support 1080p60 3D passthrough in Frame Packing mode according to manual, even though it supports 4K passthrough!. I wonder about the HX950 TV.
That is unfortunate to hear and just a guess but it might be due to the video processing chip that Sony used in that AV receiver.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

Ok - but you have been promoting this HDMI 300Mhz chip and it's capabilities. Dual-link DVI is a whole different animal.
You asked whether PC games could do 1080p60 Frame Packing so that is why I mentioned that 1080p120 3D computer monitors have been on the market since 2009 that used dual-link DVI (and more recently DisplayPort). As such based on everything I have read there are many PC games that will be able to take advantage of 1080p60 Frame Packing over HDMI once there are 3D TVs capable of it.
post #137 of 149
All games do basic 3D. The reason this is, is that Nvidia and 3rd party drivers can access the rendering system. Since 3D computer games [by that i mean games that have a virtual 3rd dimension to them, ie, not side scrolling games like super mario brothers] are rendered in 3 dimensions, all the data to determine where things need to be on the screen already exists and just has to be read by the 3D software. Nvidia has direct access to its video cards, which juggle all this stuff on the fly. Tridef 3rd party drivers access DirectX drivers I think, in part at least. So all game world itself and the models will be rendered in 3D.

The problem a few games have that are not designed with 3D in mind is that some of the elements in the game are not rendered at the real world equivalent depth, ie, the moon doesn't need to be a million miles away to look real, so in a couple games it look like its 15ft above you, and tiny. Special effects are often in 2D as well and shadows are sometimes not at the right depth, making it look like you were looking out of a window, but the shadows appeared on the glass.

Tridef, Nvidia and the 3D community frequently make their own fixes for these problems or work with the game developer to fix them. Skyrim for example, had loads of problems and was made perfect by a guy who calls himself Helix. Dead Space 2 was also a mess, then completely fixed by Helix. Alan Wake was fixed after release in response to community requests. However, many games are just rendered correctly to begin with.
post #138 of 149
So not only do the latest Sony ES top of the line receivers not support 1080p60 FP, (only 1080p30 FP), but the latest high end Sony HX950 TVs released this fall have the same limitation! So I think we can kiss hopes and talk of 1080p60 FP goodbye unless we are talking specialized PC setups, or maybe OLED in the coming years. Sad.
post #139 of 149
With HDMI.org annnouncing a new version of HDMI shortly, does it make sense for the CEMs to use a chip that will be outdated in just a few months?
post #140 of 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

With HDMI.org annnouncing a new version of HDMI shortly, does it make sense for the CEMs to use a chip that will be outdated in just a few months?

Sadly they will anyway, until the HDMI spec change forces their hand. If it saves them even $1, they won't add it in. They will see the new spec as a reason to create new devices to sell you. CEMs will never future proof anything, its against their bottom line. I see HDMI.org as the FDA of electronics. Without it, we'd all be eating contaminated meat.
post #141 of 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by tory40 View Post

All of them can in the same way Nvidia lets them do 720x60p FP. As i understand it, the 224mhz of the current HDMI chip just isn't fast enough to shovel all that pixel data fast enough. So the speed of the processor is the only limitation. I don't understand why any of this stuff can't be totally backwards compatible.
Interesting to note the framerate difference between 1080p and 720p using 3D. Its just a huge waste of technology potential. Its really sad to me. Im putting off playing games because I keep wondering if the new chips will be incorporated soon.
Yup, this list is pretty deceptive because its so short. There are literally hundereds that have official support from 3D Vision, and thousands that will work without official support.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post

As such based on everything I have read there are many PC games that will be able to take advantage of 1080p60 Frame Packing over HDMI once there are 3D TVs capable of it.
Correct! wink.gif
post #142 of 149
@miahallen

Right, just about any PC game will use 3D. That list was just to show one of the frustrations us 3D PC gamers have when looking at the situation, as it takes very little power to run at full 1080p over 720p, despite 1080p having over twice the amount of pixels to render. The scaling at 720p is pretty tough to bare after looking at what your missing, apparently all over 66mhz of processing power.
post #143 of 149
it seems like display technology has always lagged behind PC video processing power. there is little reason that 120hz is not available in projectors and displays. 1080p60 is possible now, ive been doing it with two projectors running from a PC.
post #144 of 149
"1080p60 per eye 3D over HDMI 1.4a will be possible in 2012" Guess not!
post #145 of 149
Any 120Hz native input HDTV news from CES?
post #146 of 149
I didn't see anything yet. Neil Schneider of MTBS3D.com said they would have interviewed Steve Vinuti again this year but apparently he was absent. Neil did mention he got "some of the answers we need" from other vendors, but hasn't uploaded any videos yet.

This was in a newsletter from HDMI:
Quote:
Update on the status of the next version of the HDMI Specification

The HDMI Forum, Inc. was launched in October 2011 to allow for broad industry participation in the development of the future versions of the HDMI Specification. Currently, its 83 Members are actively and collectively working on finalizing the next version of the HDMI Specification. HDMI Forum, Inc. has targeted the first half of 2013 for the release of the next version of the HDMI Specification.

..but that doesn't guarantee new chips will be used in 1080p TV's.
post #147 of 149
So it was "mid 2012", then "late 2012" now "first half of 2013"... I see how it is. I guess we'll have it by 2017.
Edited by Ilya Volk - 1/12/13 at 4:56pm
post #148 of 149
The MTBS3D CES coverage begins today.

Also, someone pointed this out to me:

Dual Link Dvi projectors. Just seeing this now, so not sure how many but there seems to be more than 2 that do 3D and some have a 2560x1600 resolution.

http://www.projectiondesign.com/products

EDIT: The F35 model is 20k....nevermind.
Edited by tory40 - 1/14/13 at 4:20pm
post #149 of 149
The fact that Silicon Image is selling the 300Mhz chip on their website for 6 dollars and nobody bothered to use it means I'm just giving up. Between manufacturers not caring about this and completely ignoring input lag, I'll continue doing 3D on my PC monitor (1080p@120hz). Hopefully when the Oculus Rift consumer edition comes out, that'll end me even caring about big screen 3D anymore.
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