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1080p60 per eye 3D over HDMI 1.4a will be possible in 2012 - Page 3

post #61 of 149
I think this thread needs to be bumped.

Look at these threads

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1358680

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1359207


1080p60 framepacking already in current Sony camcorders and Samsung TVs?
post #62 of 149
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by obveron View Post

Look at these threads

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1358680

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1359207


1080p60 framepacking already in current Sony camcorders and Samsung TVs?

As far as I know the first HDMI chips capable of 1080p60 Frame Packing only began sampling in May and mass production usually happens months after sampling. As such when it comes to these rumors of CE products from the spring of 2011 being capable of 1080p60 Frame Packing I am very, very skeptical.
post #63 of 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by obveron View Post

I think this thread needs to be bumped.

Look at these threads

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1358680

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1359207


1080p60 framepacking already in current Sony camcorders and Samsung TVs?

Video Resolution : 3D HD: 2x 1920x1080/60i; HD: 1920x1080/60p,24p,60i (FX, FH), 1440x1080/60i (HQ, LP); STD: 720x480/60i

http://store.sony.com/webapp/wcs/sto...specifications
post #64 of 149
Thread Starter 
Since I have seen this discussed in other threads here is an explanation for the 297 MHz bandwidth number for 1080p60 Frame Packing. With the blanking intervals included 24-bit color 1080p60 Frame Packing is 2200 (horizontal pixels) x 2250 (vertical pixels) x 60 (frame rate) x 10 (an 8-bit color component converted into a 10-bit TMDS symbol) x 3 (a color component is sent over each of the three TMDS data links) = 8.91 Gbits or 297 MHz (since a 10-bit TMDS symbol is sent over each of the three TMDS data links every clock cycle). Here is an image from the HD Guru website of how Frame Packing looks though I would mention that the image doesn't show the horizontal blanking interval or the entire vertical blanking interval (there is an additional 45 pixels of vertical blanking interval on the outside of the active video area).
post #65 of 149
Yup, false alarm. Too good to be true syndrome.
post #66 of 149
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by obveron View Post

Yup, false alarm. Too good to be true syndrome.

I can understand the optimism behind such threads but based on what I have read we most likely won't see CE products that support 1080p60 per eye 3D over HDMI 1.4a until next year.
post #67 of 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post

I can understand the optimism behind such threads but based on what I have read we most likely won't see CE products that support 1080p60 per eye 3D over HDMI 1.4a until next year.

And wouldn't they deem to call it something else, as well, such as HDMI 1.4c or HDMI 1.5?
post #68 of 149
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Augerhandle View Post

And wouldn't they deem to call it something else, as well, such as HDMI 1.4c or HDMI 1.5?

The bandwidth limitation that prevented 1080p60 Frame Packing (1080p60 per eye 3D video) was due to the HDMI chips that were used. 1080p60 Frame Packing is one of the optional 3D formats in HDMI 1.4a and is supported with this HDMI 1.4a chip that was announced back in May. As such the HDMI version won't tell you whether a 3D product will support 1080p60 Frame Packing. The only ways to tell will be if the CE company promotes 1080p60 Frame Packing as a feature, lists 1080p60 Frame Packing support in their product manual, or if the product can be shown to work with 1080p60 Frame Packing video.
post #69 of 149
Thread Starter 
Silicon Image has put up the pages for the SiI9587-3 HDMI 1.4a port processor chip and the SiI9589-3 HDMI 1.4a port processor chip which are the two other 300 MHz HDMI chips that were announced back in May. Previously the only 300 MHz HDMI chip on the Silicon Image website was the SiI9136-3 HDMI 1.4a transmitter chip.

Silicon Image has announced two additional 300 MHz HDMI chips with 6 HDMI inputs and 2 HDMI outputs and one of them is the SiI9575 HDMI 1.4a port processor chip. Note that multiple HDMI chips can be used in an AV receiver but using only a single HDMI chip makes for a simpler design. Silicon Image is currently giving product demonstrations at the CEATEC Japan 2011 show (October 4-7).
post #70 of 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by BioSehnsucht View Post

Gaming would benefit - even though no consoles would support it any time soon, it would be trivial for PCs to do it.

Yes it is games that will be the first to support it, in fact they already do! You can go out right now today and buy a monitor made for nVidia 3D Vision that does 1080P @ 120Hz or 1080P 3D @ 60Hz.

Most of the displays today do what we want, it is just a matter of getting the data to the display. Dual Link DVI and DisplayPort can drive a display with that bandwidth requirement right now. Current HDMI seems to be capped at 155Mhz or so (this is from my real world tests) 1080P @120Hz needs 285Mhz of bandwidth. The new 300Mhz chips would fill that need. I agree that they aren't just making those chips for no reason, they are going to find their way into displays and displays are going to start supporting 1080P 3D @ 60Hz per eye.
post #71 of 149
Thread Starter 
The AMD Radeon HD 7970 graphics card was announced today (for release on January 9th of 2012) and one of the new features it supports is 1080p60 per eye 3D video over HDMI 1.4a. AMD calls it both "Fast HDMI" and "3GHz HDMI" (a 300 MHz HDMI chip can send 3 Gbps of TMDS data over each of the three TMDS data channels). As far as I know this is the first consumer product to be announced that is capable of 1080p60 per eye 3D video over HDMI.
post #72 of 149
Thread Starter 
Here is a link to a video that was made yesterday at CES 2012 with Steve Venuti (the president of HDMI LLC). During the video he mentions that though he can't name any of the companies that several companies will announce products that support 1080p60 per eye 3D video over HDMI. The relevant part of the video begins at 6:28.
post #73 of 149
Technology is so damn aggravating.

I got my 3DTV a year ago and in less than a year it will be outdated.

What's the point in buying anything these days?
post #74 of 149
Thanks for keeping this thread updated Richard Paul.....I've been very interested in this for quite a while (I'm a PC gamer )! sub'd
post #75 of 149
FINALLY!!!

This has been a big deal for some years and doesn't just affect 3D. We have never had official 120Hz support in the HDMI spec. This is a HUGE DEAL for 3D PC gaming and as movie makers and consoles move forward it only makes sense for their content to also be 60fps per eye frame packed or sequential.

I'm hopping Panasonic will take the DT30 series in the future and really think of creating a TV for this market by supporting 1080p60 120Hz frame sequencial 4:4:4 via HDMI port as well as adding a DL-DVI port with this support. Ditch the RETARDED D-SUB VGA connection manufacturers!

Any manufacturer that does this on their 3D product line will instantly gain the PC 3D gaming market.

Owhh and by the way manufacturers this is THE BIGGEST MARKET for 3D FPD users duh!
post #76 of 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solid-State View Post

Any manufacturer that does this on their 3D product line will instantly gain the PC 3D gaming market.

As long as they don't mess it all up with high input lag, low brightness, or high crosstalk levels.. *crossing fingers*

I am also waiting for this eagerly and hope they hurry it up. I wonder why monitor manufacturers don't buy some 3DTV's from Sony and add on dual link dvi. Especially when you consider how popular surround gaming is.

Heres an interview with Steve Venuti, the CEO of HDMI from this years CES.
http://www.mtbs3d.com/index.php?opti...2810&Itemid=75
post #77 of 149
Unfortunately they were just talking about the chip at CES.(silicon vendors)
Just because the chip was made they need to talk the developers into using them. Meaning displays companies may decide not to use it. All hardware will need to be upgraded to use it. Pc video cards, blu-ray players, recievers, tvs, etc. Your tv and the connected product both need the chip. A developer may not invest in it.

Also you cant just add dvi-d onto a display and it will magically support it.(3d)
post #78 of 149
Quote:


Also you cant just add dvi-d onto a display and it will magically support it.(3d)

That i didn't know. But aren't there displays with HDMI and DVI-D? If you needed to view HDCP content use HDMI, if 3D gaming, use DVI-D?
post #79 of 149
@ tory, HDCP can be supported through DVI-D just fine.

The real problem is that while many displays can show 120Hz or more at their native resolution, they do so by using interpolation. Support for 1080p120 input is a whole different beast.

Quote:


As long as they don't mess it all up with high input lag, low brightness, or high crosstalk levels.. *crossing fingers*

+1....Acer needs to make a new version of the H5360 with 1080p support
post #80 of 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cackus Jack View Post

Technology is so damn aggravating.

I got my 3DTV a year ago and in less than a year it will be outdated.

What's the point in buying anything these days?

Hahah i feel you man, I also only bought 6 months ago, and 1080p60 s3d gaming was the only thing that tempted me to wait. I had been waiting an eternity for my first flat panel.
In the end my desire for a new TV and the consideration that 1080p60 framepacking may not happen in the near future (or at all), pushed me to pull the trigger.
It's typical that the feature is hitting the shelves so soon. haha
Technology kinda bites you in the ass that way. It's all good for people who can afford a new TV every few years.

I try to clear my mind of such "regrets", I'll enjoy this TV for what it is for the next 15+ years. I'll pull the trigger again when TVs are massive leaps ahead.

Of course the in meanwhile I'll keep meticulously informed on every model, as if I were ready to buy again (one of my weird hobbeys).
post #81 of 149
I wouldn't worry about it if you bought a display already. People are jumping the gun since the new chip has been announced. It may or may not even be supported in displays. As it is right now, no name chipset producers are trying to push a product we have no idea works 100% okay. No tv,monitor,projector manufactor has even given a hint that they are interested in this chip.
Im hoping for 2013 if at all.
post #82 of 149
What good is a chipset without the support of the content providers?

HDMI 1.3 chipsets support Deep Color. Has any Hollywood studio released a BD that has 10bit color or higher? The answer is no.
post #83 of 149
What I don't get is that the tech to support 1080p120 is already here....why are manufacturers ignoring it? (Displayport or dual-link DVI) So frustrating
post #84 of 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by miahallen View Post

@ tory, HDCP can be supported through DVI-D just fine.

The real problem is that while many displays can show 120Hz or more at their native resolution, they do so by using interpolation. Support for 1080p120 input is a whole different beast.


+1....Acer needs to make a new version of the H5360 with 1080p support

Oh, thats what i was, i completely forgot DVI-D monitors operate at 120hz...
post #85 of 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by ComputerCowboy View Post

Yes it is games that will be the first to support it, in fact they already do! You can go out right now today and buy a monitor made for nVidia 3D Vision that does 1080P @ 120Hz or 1080P 3D @ 60Hz.

Most of the displays today do what we want, it is just a matter of getting the data to the display. Dual Link DVI and DisplayPort can drive a display with that bandwidth requirement right now. Current HDMI seems to be capped at 155Mhz or so (this is from my real world tests) 1080P @120Hz needs 285Mhz of bandwidth. The new 300Mhz chips would fill that need. I agree that they aren't just making those chips for no reason, they are going to find their way into displays and displays are going to start supporting 1080P 3D @ 60Hz per eye.

Anyone ever try overclocking these chips with some water cooling? I'm sure its not that easy, but i'd buy a water cooler kit and solder some stuff if it worked!
post #86 of 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by miahallen View Post

What I don't get is that the tech to support 1080p120 is already here....why are manufacturers ignoring it? (Displayport or dual-link DVI) So frustrating

It's a computer connection. No CE devices have either of those on them.

Same reason you don't see TV's with USB 3.0 or eSATA ports.
post #87 of 149
Thread Starter 
On January 31 the AMD Radeon HD 7950 was released so there are now two consumer products that support 1080p60 per eye 3D video over HDMI (AMD uses the term "1080p60 Stereoscopic 3D" ).


Quote:
Originally Posted by eqzitara View Post

People are jumping the gun since the new chip has been announced.

300 MHz HDMI chips were announced in May of last year and on January 9th the first consumer product that uses a 300 MHz HDMI chip was released.


Quote:
Originally Posted by eqzitara View Post

As it is right now, no name chipset producers are trying to push a product we have no idea works 100% okay.

Silicon Image was one of the main companies behind the creation of both DVI and HDMI. In fact they developed TMDS which is the way that data is transmitted over DVI/HDMI.


Quote:
Originally Posted by miahallen View Post

What I don't get is that the tech to support 1080p120 is already here....why are manufacturers ignoring it? (Displayport or dual-link DVI)

I think the main issue is that the CE world uses HDMI which includes those products that go between source and display such as AV receivers and HDMI switches. For a 3D TV the value of having a dual-link DVI input or DisplayPort input that supports 1080p60 per eye 3D video is less than the value of having a HDMI input that supports it.
post #88 of 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post

I think the main issue is that the CE world uses HDMI which includes those products that go between source and display such as AV receivers and HDMI switches. For a 3D TV the value of having a dual-link DVI input or DisplayPort input that supports 1080p60 per eye 3D video is less than the value of having a HDMI input that supports it.

I agree that a 1080p120 over HDMI solution is preferable to DP or DVI....
My point is that a DP or DVI solution is better than NOTHING!
post #89 of 149
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by miahallen View Post

I agree that a 1080p120 over HDMI solution is preferable to DP or DVI....
My point is that a DP or DVI solution is better than NOTHING!

True, but the less value a feature adds to the 3D TV the less likely it is to be added to the 3D TV. That would be my guess for why none of the 3D TVs released so far have supported 1080p60 per eye 3D video using DisplayPort or dual-link DVI.
post #90 of 149
Thread Starter 
Since this relates to the past discussion on 300 MHz HDMI chips I would mention that 2160p (4K) at 24/25/30 fps has a bandwidth of 297 MHz. To be exact the video timings with blanking intervals for 2160p24 is 2250 x 5500 x 24 = 297 MHz and for 2160p30 is 2250 x 4400 x 30 = 297 MHz. As such products announced at CES 2012 that support 2160p24 video over HDMI like the Sony BDP-S790 are using 300 MHz HDMI chips.
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