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X-Rite's Revolutionary New Colorimeter - Page 42

post #1231 of 1308
11/26/12 at 7:34pm
I don't follow which company licenses what from X-Rite (IMO, it doesn't matter, see my #2) and I really was just trying to make two points.

#1, both the oem and retail i1D3 have the ability for a custom edr's (I don't think this is understood clearly though it's meaningless without the mechanism / tools), probably a better debate (that I care less about, see #2) is if it's better for these i1D3 variants to create these edr for different spectra power distributions or provide general display type meter matrix offsets (taking in account the filters) - I believe this was what Jeroen1000's asking about above. Both SpectraCAL | ChromaPure do stand by their data and support their C6 | Display 3 PRO offerings.

#2, Regardless of what method is used, you cannot be sure if your results are accurate for your Display and in fact there is data to support this.. Without profiling i1D3 variants to a spectro (even a ColorMunki or i1Pro) on the actual display, uncertainly exists.. perhaps a better debate is challenging the i1Pro or ColorMunki Spectro to a reference meter class for this purpose (for another day).

IMO and my feelings on the matter are no secret, all should have a Spectro in their kit, get the i1Pro2/i1D3 - i1Pro2/C6 Combo if you want or find a used i1Pro in place of the i1Pro2 in these Combos...
Edited by turbe - 11/26/12 at 9:05pm
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post #1232 of 1308
11/26/12 at 8:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

Does having a C6 give you better accuracy than using something like a Jeti or a CS-200? no
Is a C6 the absolute best colorimeter for the money? yes
It's not suppose to be a replacement for high end spectrometers, if you have access to one, then of course you'd always want to profile on the actual display. The C6 provides a 3rd path, something between basic colorimeters that need to be sent back to the lab to add new tables and spectrometers that read the spectrum discretely.

Ok, then are you better off profiling a newer C6 with a newer 1Ipro 2 basic using CM5E profiling tool, or just simply profile the C6 to the display using the single pass profiling tool and not using the I1pro at all ????

ss
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post #1233 of 1308
11/26/12 at 8:11pm
SillySally, I know your post is for him, but I'm confused..

in CalMAN 5, I have the business class and not sure if it's different for the enthusiasts class, I use Meter Profiler, not sure what you are posting about in regards to single pass profiling tool.

if you read into my post above, I say Profile your C6 to your i1Pro2 (on your Display) with Meter Profiler in C5 biggrin.gif
Edited by turbe - 11/26/12 at 8:26pm
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post #1234 of 1308
11/26/12 at 8:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by turbe View Post

SillySally, I know your post is for SpectraCAL, but I'm confused..
in CalMAN 5, I have the business class and not sure if it's different for the enthusiasts class, I use Meter Profiler, not sure what you are posting about in regards to single pass profiling tool.
if you read into my post above, I say Profile your C6 to your i1Pro2 (on your Display) with Meter Profiler in C5 biggrin.gif

Profiling just the one meter to the display (single pass profiling).

My understanding is that the C6 is hardwired internally as opposed to software after it is profiled/calibrated with CM's CS2000. As long as you can use CM's profile tool just to profile the C6 to your display, what is the point of using a I1pro/2 after the C6 has already been profiled by CM's cs2000 for Calman??

im my case I have a VT50 (plasma) and a Mini 3D using CM's 3D LUT cube.

And yes I do profile my C6 with my I1pro 2, so I am trying to find out from Calman is there any advantage to profiling the C6 with the I1pro2.

ss
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post #1235 of 1308
11/26/12 at 8:39pm
Do you have the Meter Profiler option in the main red calman 5 drop down? If so, will you try that?
My understanding is that the C6 is hardwired internally

Also, once you do meter to meter profiling in CalMAN, forget the other C6 methods
Quote:
And yes I do profile my C6 with my I1pro 2, so I am trying to find out from Calman is there any advantage to profiling the C6 with the I1pro2.

I believe so, profiling the C6 with the i1Pro2 on your VT50


EDIT: I think it's green(?) calman 5 < business dropdown.

EDIT 2: I see, I think you are profiling in a specific workflow
Edited by turbe - 11/26/12 at 8:49pm
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post #1236 of 1308
11/26/12 at 9:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by turbe View Post

Do you have the Meter Profiler option in the main red calman 5 drop down? If so, will you try that?
My understanding is that the C6 is hardwired internally
Also, once you do meter to meter profiling in CalMAN, forget the other C6 methods
I believe so, profiling the C6 with the i1Pro2 on your VT50
EDIT: I think it's green(?) calman 5 < business dropdown.
EDIT 2: I see, I think you are profiling in a specific workflow

Yes I am profiling in the C6 meter or I1pro2 Tab/ drop down window (whatever CM5E is picking first for the meter). I then use the drop down tabs in that main window and input what meter I am using to profile from and what meter I am using to profile to. Then run the double pass tab (or whatever its called). Yes I am using the 3D LUT cube workflow.

ss

EDIT: I am not sure I know what you mean when you say "Do you have the Meter Profiler option in the main red calman 5 drop down?"
Is what I am doing what you mean when you say that??
Edited by sillysally - 11/26/12 at 9:08pm
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post #1237 of 1308
11/26/12 at 9:09pm
yea and that is no different from profiling a i1d3 to the I1pro2

they have separated the two CalMAN classes and I believe the profiling options are the same for both...
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post #1238 of 1308
11/26/12 at 9:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by turbe View Post

I don't follow which company licenses what from X-Rite (IMO, it doesn't matter, see my #2) and I really was just trying to make two points.
#1, both the oem and retail i1D3 have the ability for a custom edr's (I don't think this is understood clearly though it's meaningless without the mechanism / tools), probably a better debate (that I care less about, see #2) is if it's better for these i1D3 variants to create these edr for different spectra power distributions or provide general display type meter matrix offsets (taking in account the filters) - I believe this was what Jeroen1000's asking about above. Both SpectraCAL | ChromaPure do stand by their data and support their C6 | Display 3 PRO offerings.
#2, Regardless of what method is used, you cannot be sure if your results are accurate for your Display and in fact there is data to support this.. Without profiling i1D3 variants to a spectro (even a ColorMunki or i1Pro) on the actual display, uncertainly exists.. perhaps a better debate is challenging the i1Pro or ColorMunki Spectro to a reference meter class for this purpose (for another day).
IMO and my feelings on the matter are no secret, all should have a Spectro in their kit, get the i1Pro2/i1D3 - i1Pro2/C6 Combo if you want or find a used i1Pro in place of the i1Pro2 in these Combos...

Which combo is preferred the C6 or i1D3 if one buys the i1Pro2 to profile?

Is there a difference?

Thanks
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post #1239 of 1308
11/26/12 at 9:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by turbe View Post

yea and that is no different from profiling a i1d3 to the I1pro2 in CalMAN regardless of what anyone says

So what you are saying is even though the C6 is profiled and hard wired using the CS2000 meter for Calman's software, there is no differences between the C6 and I1d3 and in both cases its better to profile using at-least the I1pro/2???

ss
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post #1240 of 1308
11/26/12 at 9:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rpconrad View Post

Which combo is preferred the C6 or i1D3 if one buys the i1Pro2 to profile?
Is there a difference?
Thanks

If you want a colorimeter (either),, there is none (even close to its price range) vs having just a i1Pro2/i1Pro..
Edited by turbe - 11/26/12 at 9:38pm
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post #1241 of 1308
11/26/12 at 9:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

So what you are saying is even though the C6 is profiled and hard wired using the CS2000 meter for Calman's software, there is no differences between the C6 and I1d3 and in both cases its better to profile using at-least the I1pro/2???
ss

I will go on the "record" (many won't anymore) vs profiling on specific display.. I challenge anyone independent to this, post the data and challenge this data

Quote it!!
Edited by turbe - 11/26/12 at 9:38pm
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post #1242 of 1308
11/26/12 at 10:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by turbe View Post

I will go on the "record" (many won't anymore) vs profiling on specific display.. I challenge anyone independent to this, post the data and challenge this data
Quote it!!

Well hopefully Joel will respond to my post, if there are two sides to this story. If no reply then I guess there is no debate. (http://www.avsforum.com/t/1342422/x-rites-revolutionary-new-colorimeter/1230#post_22629750)

ss

EDIT: Just for the record I am not disagreeing with what you are saying..
Edited by sillysally - 11/27/12 at 5:29am
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post #1243 of 1308
11/26/12 at 10:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rpconrad View Post

Which combo is preferred the C6 or i1D3 if one buys the i1Pro2 to profile?
Is there a difference?
Thanks

I think they're many of us are asking that question.

I expect the answer we'lll be hearing from a software vendor is that the C6 has been tweaked to perform even better.

But it sure looks like once you including profiling from an i1pro2, it doesn't matter.


Totally off subject.
If you have reasonably good color vision, don't overlook that you're eyes are probably more sensitive to differences in color than most these meters. Put up a stepped grayscale pattern and look for differences and adjust them out. Don't put your total reliance on meters.
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post #1244 of 1308
11/26/12 at 11:35pm
Hi guys,

No I'm not asking whether a C6 with EDR's is more accurate than a ID3 profiled to a spectro (the i1 Pro usually as it is the only one would ever want to buy for the price these things sell:D). If you want my take on it, I would prefer the verification to a specto. over the C6 IF money is not an issue. I like to perfect things and uncertainty would keep me up at night:-).
I do think the C6 is the next best thing in line.

What I am very interested in, is the technical achievement here (I like to understand how things work):
Quote:
Please correct me if I'm wrong here, the true strenght lies in the fact that the base configuration data is decoupled from the XYZ domain. This is *not* so with the traditional profiling as you add the correction matrices for a certain display type AFTER entering the XYZ domain. This means that meters that have correction matrixes made in the with the traditional method cannot be upgrade in the field as the XYZ domain is not linear with regards to different spectra.

I"ll ask more straightforward: do you need the base configuration (= measuring the individual filters, so the meter knows what their spectral response is) to create an EDR? From what I've read and understood, the answer is YES.
If so, CP or any other vendor cannot create EDR's unless they know how to create the base configuration first. So EDR's and XYZ domain = decoupled. So if an EDR corrects the base configuration for a given display spectrum, both the EDR and the base configuration are essential.
The question after this one is perhaps: is there already a base configuration on OEM ID3's, and if so, why does Spectracal create a new one?
Edited by Jeroen1000 - 11/26/12 at 11:43pm
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post #1245 of 1308
11/27/12 at 3:18am
My point isn't about c6 vs id3, both spectralcal and chromapure have their data and support their offering... if you have a spectro and doing meter profiling on each display you are essentially bypassing their work...

There are others out there that can test against their higher end spectros like a Jeti and are independent..

It really applies to any colorimeter, including K-10's with factory tables.

Jeroen all id3 meters have an initial matrix by xrite specific to that meter and each edr is applied (for lack of a better term) to
Edited by turbe - 11/27/12 at 3:39am
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post #1246 of 1308
11/27/12 at 7:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

Ok, then are you better off profiling a newer C6 with a newer 1Ipro 2 basic using CM5E profiling tool, or just simply profile the C6 to the display using the single pass profiling tool and not using the I1pro at all ????
ss


I can´t believe that you can profile a meter to a specify display using the single pass profiling in CalMAN. You always need two meters to profile. Single pass means only that both meters are together on the display and both meters are together connected to the PC. The only way you can profile a meter against itself is using multi pass, for example for 3D-Profiling once with glasses and second pass without.

That is just my understanding from profiling.
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post #1247 of 1308
11/27/12 at 11:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by fredman2005 View Post

I can´t believe that you can profile a meter to a specify display using the single pass profiling in CalMAN. You always need two meters to profile. Single pass means only that both meters are together on the display and both meters are together connected to the PC. The only way you can profile a meter against itself is using multi pass, for example for 3D-Profiling once with glasses and second pass without.
That is just my understanding from profiling.

That's exactly correct.
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post #1248 of 1308
11/27/12 at 11:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

So what you are saying is even though the C6 is profiled and hard wired using the CS2000 meter for Calman's software, there is no differences between the C6 and I1d3 and in both cases its better to profile using at-least the I1pro/2???
ss
Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

Well hopefully Joel will respond to my post, if there are two sides to this story. If no reply then I guess there is no debate. (http://www.avsforum.com/t/1342422/x-rites-revolutionary-new-colorimeter/1230#post_22629750)
ss
EDIT: Just for the record I am not disagreeing with what you are saying..

The C6 does have it's adaptive exposure mode which can help a bit with accuracy at low light.

But if we were to say compare a C6 profiled to an i1Pro 2 and an i1D3 OEM profiled to an i1Pro 2 at 100% luminance for a series of gamut reads, there would be no difference.
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post #1249 of 1308
11/27/12 at 11:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by turbe View Post

My point isn't about c6 vs id3, both spectralcal and chromapure have their data and support their offering... if you have a spectro and doing meter profiling on each display you are essentially bypassing their work...
There are others out there that can test against their higher end spectros like a Jeti and are independent..
It really applies to any colorimeter, including K-10's with factory tables.
Jeroen all id3 meters have an initial matrix by xrite specific to that meter and each edr is applied (for lack of a better term) to

If you want to see data showing that the factory tables are more accurate than profiling to an i1Pro(2), I can show you that data.
If you want toe see data showing that profiling to an i1Pro(2) provides better results than using the factory table, I can get that data as well.

Which one is better depends entirely on the display you're measuring and the one the factory profile was created for.

Profiling without a doubt is more consistent in it's level of accuracy, and is also more expensive to have the required hardware. You are still at the limits of your reference meter though.

EDRs that have been created with high-end reference meter without a doubt improve the accuracy of a colorimeter, but it's still a colorimeter and as you change from display model to display model, variations will lessen it's accuracy the greater the difference the model from the references used to create the EDRs. But you only need to buy 1 meter and with the EDR method we can field update which is without a doubt an improvement from having to send your meter back in to get new display types added.
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post #1250 of 1308
11/27/12 at 12:36pm
Sotti, do you only make the EDR's then with special tools and the base configuration (= measuring the individual filters, so the meter knows what their spectral response is) done by X-rite themselves?
And +1 for your post. That's exactly how I feel about it.
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post #1251 of 1308
11/27/12 at 12:43pm
I've done the tests myself on i1d3 on a few displays and the factory tables were not close consistently vs profiling the i1d3 to a i1pro on each display but I think it's best for more independent people posting their data from multiple displays.. there are others around with these colorimeters and a Jeti and like Michael they don't sell meters... he posted data to support his conclusions and what I am trying to get across. Even Tom has posted a little data from checking several i1d3's shipped by x-rite, updated post here.

I think MichaelTLV says it best:
Quote:
The open question is then ... without a device to double check its performance, exactly how does one know when it is functioning correctly?

If you only have this device, then, you need to know the answer to this, or you can stick your head back into the sand. If I am a potential client to a calibrator that only pulls out a tri-stim device to calibrate my TV, I'd want to know the answer to this.

Enthusiasts, have a spectro in your kit, that's really all I'm trying to advocate.... I have to admit, I wish there were i1d3/spectro bundles aggressively priced for those interested...
Edited by turbe - 11/27/12 at 1:18pm
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post #1252 of 1308
11/27/12 at 12:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen1000 View Post

Sotti, do you only make the EDR's then with special tools and the base configuration (= measuring the individual filters, so the meter knows what their spectral response is) done by X-rite themselves?
And +1 for your post. That's exactly how I feel about it.

Yes that is how it's currently handled.
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post #1253 of 1308
11/27/12 at 12:45pm
Can you update this if required (if the meter has drifted?) This would make the C6 very future proof. I'm interested in one already:-)
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post #1254 of 1308
11/30/12 at 3:28am
Don't have a clue. I did not find anywhere. How often should I profile the I1Display pro against I1Pro2...week, month.. year?rolleyes.gif
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post #1255 of 1308
11/30/12 at 4:12am
You profile it on each display you calibrate as one of the first operations.
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post #1256 of 1308
11/30/12 at 8:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by airscapes View Post

You profile it on each display you calibrate as one of the first operations.

That is optimal but I assume it is not necessary and the meter could be profiled less frequently
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post #1257 of 1308
11/30/12 at 9:47am
I'm sure it could, but why not? It take what? Less then 5 minutes.

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2
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post #1258 of 1308
11/30/12 at 9:47am
every 6 months should be okay
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post #1259 of 1308
11/30/12 at 11:02am
Lets be clear for the new folks that may read it. If you plan on calibrating your flat screen display over and over then no, you don't need to do it every time. But if you are doing 3 different displays (even the same make and model) you need to profile on each one and save each of the profiles if you want to redo one of the displays without going through the process of profiling.
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post #1260 of 1308
11/30/12 at 3:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by derekjsmith View Post


X-Rite builds four versions of the D3. They look the same but do have differences. They should have called them all something different.


ColorMunki Display - the cheapest but also the slowest and only works with X-Rite software which is very limited.


Display Pro - retail version has support for 4-6 display types and is designed to run only with X-Rite software. A couple OEM vendors have been able to license access including CalMAN.


Display3 OEM - Which everyone has access to has factory support for 4-6 display types. Most OEM products support this version of the D3.


Display3 Pro – Same as the D3 OEM but what ChromaPure sell as their Pro version of the D3 OEM with additional display support.


SpectraCal C6 – What we have build by X-Rite for us. Has different firmware, exposure modes and more capability for additional display types including field updates. It is also the most expensive for these features.


Would the CP Display 3 Pro work with CM? Would the additional display support carry over into CM or only work with CP?


bob
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