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X-Rite's Revolutionary New Colorimeter - Page 44

post #1291 of 1402
Quote:
Originally Posted by alamagar View Post

Thks, JimP.
  • By a calibration reset, you mean what Razel says: "Calibrate the meter using a 30% stimulus pattern."?
  • Regarding not to put the meter in contact with the plasma, I'm surprised and a bit confused. Till now what I read including curtpalme guide is to put the meter in contact for plasma. Then If I put the meter 6" away from the display, It will be ok to use APL small patterns or the meter will be measuing dark areas too?
  • Don't worry I calibrate in totally dark enviroment.

I've not heard anything about calibrating the meter using a 30% stimulus pattern. Might be unique to your software. Maybe if you can give me a link, I can make sense of it.

I've heard different about plasma and contact versus non-contact mode.

You can still use small apl windows if that's the type windows you want to use. Just like the contact versus contact modes for the meter, you can find quite a few opinions on whether to use small versus large windows and APL versus non APL windows. You may have to try various ones until you find one that gives you a good looking calibration.
post #1292 of 1402
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

The i1display3 is a bit different than previous color meters.
At the beginning of your calibration session, you do take a calibration reset. You don't use a white plaque or a dark opaque surface as these are for other metes.

I think this only applies to HCFR, not Calman or Chromapure.


bob
post #1293 of 1402
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

I've not heard anything about calibrating the meter using a 30% stimulus pattern. Might be unique to your software. Maybe if you can give me a link, I can make sense of it.
I'm using HCFR+i1d3
You can read it as an answer to my initial post:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1342422/x-rites-revolutionary-new-colorimeter/1260#post_22743484

Then, No black, No white, No 30% sitimulus pattern. How is the way to calibrate the meter?
post #1294 of 1402
Quote:
Originally Posted by alamagar View Post

Thks for your answer Rahzel. I still have some issues not clear to me.
  1. What do you mean by " Calibrate the meter using a 30% stimulus pattern"?. In curtpalme guide he says:
    "LCD or Plasma: Click "Calibrate internal sensor offsets" and place the sensor on a flat non-porous opaque surface. A black surface is preferred. The inside of a black DVD case works great. Make sure it's flat and no extra light is getting in there! Select "OK" to calibrate."
    I can't see exactly the point with 30% stimulus pattern. Do you mean load the 30% white APL or windows pattern and click calibrate?
  2. Also I assume is necessary to calibrate the meter even when you are working with front projection. Is it correct?
  3. Regarding periodic or not periodic calibrations I guess you mean it is only necessary to calibrate the meter once for a long time (say months) before recalibrate it again, correct?. Curtpalme guide asserts
    "When you go to take final critical readings, you may want to manually recalibrate again to ensure everything is perfect" and
    "You'll have to calibrate next time you start up ColorHCFR or unplug/replug the Eye-One too of course"
    but I think it refers only to i1D2/LT old colorimeters.
  4. Thank you for the advice on refresh type for plasma. I didn't use it before.
  5. Regarding correction matrices. I assume if I use correction matrix is it needed to redo the calibration of the TV with that values loaded on "advanced->XYZ coordinates adjustament matrix->...", is it correct?
I guess is better to publish this post on "fork-of-hcfr-started-whats-needed" thread.
1. The i1D2 has to be calibrated with a black surface. The i1D3 needs to be calibrated using a white patch, and it's recommended to use a 30% white pattern (window, field, APL.. whatever you're using). With plasmas, you should use windows or maybe APL. LED/LCD or projector, you can use fields.
2. Yes you need to calibrate the meter before you start each session. When you create a new calibration in HCFR, it will ask you this.
3. When I say 'periodically calibrate the meter' I mean the HCFR internal sensor calibration. The i1D2/LT needs to be re-calibrated every 15-20min to ensure accuracy, but AFAIK, you don't have to do this with the i1D3.
Actually getting your meter re-calibrated/serviced by comparing it to an accurate meter (like a spectro) and getting offsets to compensate for meter drift is a different topic. This doesn't need to be done that often (several months, or years) because the i1D3 has sealed filters. To prolong your meter, it's best to store it in a dark, cool and dry place. I store mine with incandescent packs in a ziplock bag.
4. Yes, if you use a correction matrix, you will have to redo the calibration. There's a checkbox on the top right of HCFR that says "XYZ adjustment". You can see the how the matrix/offsets affect the measurements by simply checking or unchecking this box.

IMO, it's fine to use the i1D3 in contact mode with a plasma, as long as you let the meter warm up a bit on the screen. In my experience, even if you started measuring right away without letting the meter warm up, the difference in measurements is minimal. 20min or 30min tops should be enough time for the meter to warmup IMO.

Some other changes you will have to make in HCFR. Go to Advanced -> Preferences:
-On the General tab, uncheck 'use measured colors (when available)'
-Click on the References tab and make sure you select REC 709 for HD. You can also set your target gamma here.
-Click on the Advanced tab and check 'do not use luminance in delta E formula'

Would definitely be nice if there was an updated guide for HCFR. It's a very effective free tool, but one of the problems is that it takes a lot of searching and reading to find out how to set it up properly.
This post has a good summary of the things that should be changed in HCFR.
Edited by rahzel - 12/26/12 at 11:19am
post #1295 of 1402
Thanks a lot for all the info, Rahzel.
2.- HCFR does not ask me for recalibrate before each session, but I'm aware and will do it.
4. I've used the correction matrix for plasma loading the first mhc file for panasonic compiled by Make73.

I'm trying with cinema and normal mode on the display to choose one.

I have a new question. Curtpalme Guide indicates in his guide to do the first basic contrast/bright calibration getting the Y value of 10% IRE the 0,65% of the Y value for 100 IRE. In this way my gamma is accurate near 2,2, but I need to down bright to get the Y value and when using pluge patterns for bright calibration blacks are crushed. Wich is the best method?
post #1296 of 1402
To set Brightness and Contrast, I would just use the black and white clipping patterns on the AVSHD709 disc. For Contrast, the white clipping pattern shows bars representing levels of white from ~230 to 254. You ideally want all of them to be visible without any color shifting. Because video uses a range of 16-235, you at the very least want 235 and below flashing without any color shift but you should leave a bit of headroom in case there is some whiter than white video information being displayed. If you can set your contrast higher than your eyes can handle for your viewing environment without any negative effects, then just set the contrast to a comfortable brightness.

Here's another mini guide by Tom Huffman that you might want to check out.
post #1297 of 1402
Quote:
Originally Posted by rahzel View Post

To set Brightness and Contrast, I would just use the black and white clipping patterns on the AVSHD709 disc. For Contrast, the white clipping pattern shows bars representing levels of white from ~230 to 254. You ideally want all of them to be visible without any color shifting. Because video uses a range of 16-235, you at the very least want 235 and below flashing without any color shift but you should leave a bit of headroom in case there is some whiter than white video information being displayed. If you can set your contrast higher than your eyes can handle for your viewing environment without any negative effects, then just set the contrast to a comfortable brightness.
Here's another mini guide by Tom Huffman that you might want to check out.
That is the point. When using this method my gamma is under 2,2. If I use the method reported before (0,65% Y value for 10% IRE over 100 % IRE) gamma is better but blacks are crushed.
post #1298 of 1402
Having a slightly lower gamma is better than crushing black detail IMO. Personally I think the pluge/clipping pattern method is better for setting Contrast/Brightness.
Edited by rahzel - 12/26/12 at 5:27pm
post #1299 of 1402
Hello. I tried the 0.65% of 10% of white and it does crush blacks . It is not an accurate method. I would use avs black clipping pattern instead. Tom needs to update some of the info on those articles. I think he does mention an alternate way using a 0% black pattern lower brightness to the point where the black doesn't get any darker. I forget exactly what it says. I don't want to mislead you . I took this out of the chromapure thread. There is a little discussion on what is one percent above black and would it better to focus on 17 barely visible and 16 invisible from the black clipping pattern . This is what Tom had to say. You can read the rest i think it's on page 124/125. He also mentions to focus on 18 instead of 17 but that is not in the quote below biggrin.gif

1% above black is more like 18.

8-bit video spans 16-235. That is 219 code values, so there is not a one-to-one relationship between a code value and percent values. 17 is one code value above black, so close in fact that it may be hard to visually distinguish from 16. If you can see 18 but cannot see bars below 16, then that's good. If brightness is set too high, you'll be able to see bars below 16. If it is set too low, 18 will fade into the background and become invisible.
Edited by hungro - 12/26/12 at 7:55pm
post #1300 of 1402
Thank you, Rahzel and hungro.
Is what I think after setting contrast/bright using these 2 methods. To my eyes is better the pluge/clipping pattern.

A last question. I'm planning to calibrate an LCD display too.
When you Rahzel say
Quote:
... Also select Refresh type for plasma.
I guess I must choose Refresh type for LCD too. is that right?
Edited by alamagar - 12/27/12 at 12:29am
post #1301 of 1402
Quote:
Originally Posted by alamagar View Post

Thank you, Rahzel and hungro.
Is what I think after setting contrast/bright using these 2 methods. To my eyes is better the pluge/clipping pattern.
A last question. I'm planning to calibrate an LCD display too.
When you Rahzel say
I guess I must choose Refresh type for LCD too. is that right?
No, LCD is a non-refresh type. Only use Refresh type on CRT or Plasma (and maybe DLP?).
edit: http://sourceforge.net/p/hcfr/wiki/Home/
post #1302 of 1402
I'm using an i1d3 in contact mode with an ST30 plasma and HCFR. I simply cannot get stable readings below 40% IRE. Red especially fluctuates as much as 10%, I have let it sit for a few minutes hoping that it would stabilize, but no luck. How do I fix this?
post #1303 of 1402
Quote:
Originally Posted by ttnuagmada View Post

I'm using an i1d3 in contact mode with an ST30 plasma and HCFR. I simply cannot get stable readings below 40% IRE. Red especially fluctuates as much as 10%, I have let it sit for a few minutes hoping that it would stabilize, but no luck. How do I fix this?

it's the ABL terror of the plasma... use ur meter off-screen and calibrate as good as u can with ABL...
post #1304 of 1402
I don't understand what ABL would have to do with it. I'm not changing IRE's, Im just doing a continuous measure on 30%, and it fluctuates all over the place. I don't have this problem with my i1D2.
post #1305 of 1402
Quote:
Originally Posted by ttnuagmada View Post

I don't understand what ABL would have to do with it. I'm not changing IRE's, Im just doing a continuous measure on 30%, and it fluctuates all over the place. I don't have this problem with my i1D2.

ABL is always there, I did a very similar test recently and the luma value kept continuously dropping...
post #1306 of 1402
I don't think it has anything to do with the problem i'm experiencing though. It doesn't do it on higher IRE's. I also tried it non-contact with the same results. I also tried 2 different sources (PS3 and HTPC) so I think that there must be something else going on. I had no problems with this meter or the USB extension cable that I'm using when I did my dad's LCD the other day. I also don't see this problem when using my i1D2 on the same plasma i'm trying to use my i1D3 on.
post #1307 of 1402
ttnuagmada

It could be one of several things.

1. Be sure that your plasma has been turned on for at least 50 minutes to warm up.

2. Have your meter connected to your computer and turned on for at least 30 minutes.

3. XRite issued some new code that helps the i1d3 with plasmas. Its in Chromapure and Calman but don't know if it made it into HCFR.

4. It's very odd that it would show up at 40% unless you've got your brightness set too low. It's not that unusual to get bouncy reading when the screen brightness is below the operating range of a meter but this shouldn't be happening at 40%.

5. You might want to review the i1d3 setup in HCFR.
post #1308 of 1402
As far as i know HCFR uses the libraries of argyllcms.
Have you checked if this problem also exists in the original program?
If so you could post your observations in the argyll forum.
post #1309 of 1402
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

Except for long shot luck, a decent colorimeter profiled to an i1Pro will be more accurate than a C6 or a D3 with profiles from SpectraCal or Chromapure. It "becomes" the i1Pro for that particular display.


I wanted to test this hypothesis, so I did the following.
[*] First, I unpacked a brand-new i1Pro and measured a Pioneer plasma.
[*] Second, I unpacked a brand-new i1 Display Pro III, and then I calibrated it using a Panasonic plasma, turning it into a Display 3 PRO.
[*] Third, I measured the Pioneer plasma with the Display 3 PRO.
[*] Fourth, I measured the Pioneer plasma with our reference device, which is a JETI spectroradiometer.
[*] Finally, I compared the measurements of the Pioneer plasma. Here's what I found.

Reference White Red Green Blue
x 0.314 0.668 0.274 0.148
y 0.324 0.325 0.651 0.062
Display 3 PRO
x 0.312 0.670 0.273 0.148
y 0.323 0.324 0.651 0.061
i1Pro
x 0.315 0.666 0.279 0.147
y 0.329 0.325 0.647 0.066
White Red Green Blue
i1Pro Delta Average Delta
x 0.001 0.002 0.005 0.001 0.002
y 0.004 0.000 0.004 0.004 0.003
Display 3 PRO Delta Average Delta
x 0.002 0.002 0.001 0.000 0.001
y 0.001 0.001 0.000 0.001 0.001


As you can see, the Display 3 PRO agrees with the reference instrument more closely than the i1Pro, despite the fact that it was calibrated using a plasma of a completely different make and model.


Why is this? Two reasons:
  • The main reason is that the i1Pro, though a very nice instrument that yields good results on a wide range of displays, is NOT a reference instrument. The errors I see here are typical of what I have seen in the past.
  • Also, the ability of a good colorimeter to accurately measure different displays of the same type but different make and model are less than what many assume.

This test is not conclusive. I have not tested all major plasmas, nor have I tested other display technologies using the methodology described above. However, I think that it is fair to say that a Display 3 individually calibrated with a reference instrument is likely to give at least as good performance as what you would get from profiling an uncalibrated Display 3 using an i1Pro for a specific display.

Tom, I'm bringing back an old discussion about spectophotometer accuracy...

Now, with the arrival of the i1PRO2, have you ever made a new comparison of your JETI 1211 vs. i1PRO2? If you have runned it, can you show us the data's?

The discontinued i1PRO was made in Switzerland and the NIST Calibration was performed at X-Rites Central Lab Facilities at Switzerland.

The Latest i1PRO2 was Made In China and X-Rite since July 16, 2012 they transfered the Certification/Repair Process Services of the i1 Familty from the X-Rite Service Center in Switzerland to the X-Rite Service Center in Germany.

This will make intestesting a new comparison of i1PRO2 vs. JETI wink.gif
Edited by ConnecTEDDD - 6/11/13 at 2:10pm
post #1310 of 1402
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Tom, I'm bringing back an old discussion about spectophotometer accuracy...

This makes intestesting a new comparion of i1PRO2 vs. JETI wink.gif

Oy ... again? biggrin.gif
post #1311 of 1402
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Tom, I'm bringing back an old discussion about spectophotometer accuracy...

Now, with the arrival of the i1PRO2, have you ever made a new comparison of your JETI 1211 vs. i1PRO2? If you have runned it, can you show us the data's?

The discontinued i1PRO was made in Switzerland and the NIST Calibration was performed at X-Rites Central Lab Facilities at Switzerland.

The Latest i1PRO2 was Made In China and X-Rite since July 16, 2012 they transfered the Certification/Repair Process Services of the i1 Familty from the X-Rite Service Center in Switzerland to the X-Rite Service Center in Germany.

This will make intestesting a new comparison of i1PRO2 vs. JETI wink.gif
Using the same methodology, the i1Pro 2 looks a little better, especially in green. However, the white error is almost exactly the same.

post #1312 of 1402
Tom, Thank you for that comparison, it's interesting.

When i bought my i1PRO2 I compared it immediatelly with my i1PRO1 (1 year old unit and was recalibrated before 2 months @ X-Rite's Central Factory Facilities of Switzerland).

post #1313 of 1402
Ted,

Is the assumption that the i1pro2 is more or less accurate than the recalibration i1pro?
post #1314 of 1402
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

Ted,

Is the assumption that the i1pro2 is more or less accurate than the recalibration i1pro?

Tom's Data shows that the i1pro2 is tracking closer his JETI readings that the i1pro1.
post #1315 of 1402
but can we really draw conclusions from one sample of the i1pro2? (not to mention one data sample for one display and one display type/tech)
post #1316 of 1402
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Tom, Thank you for that comparison, it's interesting.

When i bought my i1PRO2 I compared it immediatelly with my i1PRO1 (1 year old unit and was recalibrated before 2 months @ X-Rite's Central Factory Facilities of Switzerland).


was that a LED-LCD or CCFL-LCD and if it was a LED-LCD did you use the enhanced LED tables from SpectraCal for both?
post #1317 of 1402
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Tom, Thank you for that comparison, it's interesting.

When i bought my i1PRO2 I compared it immediatelly with my i1PRO1 (1 year old unit and was recalibrated before 2 months @ X-Rite's Central Factory Facilities of Switzerland).


was that a LED-LCD or CCFL-LCD and if it was a LED-LCD did you use the enhanced LED tables from SpectraCal for both?

It was my PC Monitor, Samsung SyncMaster 2233BW - TN LCD 120Hz Panel.

Both meter were the Full Retail Versions.
post #1318 of 1402
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

It was my PC Monitor, Samsung SyncMaster 2233BW - TN LCD 120Hz Panel.

Both meter were the Full Retail Versions.

so it was a CCFL-LCD and your meters are not the 'enhanced' ones, right?
post #1319 of 1402
The Meters Version I compared came from these X-Rite i1Basic PRO & X-Rite i1Publish Pro 2 Upgrade
Packages.
post #1320 of 1402
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

but can we really draw conclusions from one sample of the i1pro2? (not to mention one data sample for one display and one display type/tech)
Nothing definitive. However, the fact that the white, red, and blue channels were almost exactly the same as the previous i1Pro 1 measurement relative to the reference certainly suggests something more than random results.

Also, I haven't noticed a meaningful difference between good color analyzers when measuring plasmas. The previous test showed that a D3 profiled with the reference on a Panny plasma seemed to perform just as well when measuring a Pioneer plasma. LCDs (LED and CCFL) and bulb-based projectors that use different illumination technologies is where you start to see real differences in color analyzer performance.
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