or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Display Calibration › X-Rite's Revolutionary New Colorimeter
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

X-Rite's Revolutionary New Colorimeter - Page 8

post #211 of 1402
May be the ChromaPure branded OEM products are all based on the same hardware but some of the CalMan branded products are the same as the ChromaPure OEM hardware and some of them are different OEM hardware which is only availably for SpectraCal.

I don't say this is the situation, nor that I think it's likely, but it's possible.


But you are right, this new colorimeter is confusing enough alone, there is no need to over-complicate it with thousands of brand names and other marketing related disturbances...
post #212 of 1402
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

...it's more than just profiles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

695-295 = 400 dollars

For a case and a tripod holder and some profiles?

Seriously?

It appears that this may indeed be the case? Spectracal really needs to do a better job at explaining things. As consumers, even us non professionals, we are not stupid people. We will eventually figure things out. But, the way the information has been presented so far is really quite disappointing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

It will natively be more accurate than an OEM i1 Display Pro

How is this? Specifics would be nice.
post #213 of 1402
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

Since it's saturday and I'm not at the office I can't get the part numbers, but the OEM i1 Display is the OEM version of the standard X-Rite i1 Display Pro.

The C6 is uplevel hardware not available elsewhere, currently.

So you are clearly stating that the Spectacal OEM i1 Display is the standard X-Rite i1 Display Pro which is 5x faster than the previous devices (According to X-Rite's site) and the C6 is special Hardware that is 5x faster than the Retail X-rite i1 Display Pro (According to SpectraCal's Site) this would make the C6 25x faster and more accurate than the previous released Devices???

Can anyone substantiate this claim?
If this is true it might justify the price point.
post #214 of 1402
Quote:
Originally Posted by CpuZapper333 View Post

So you are clearly stating that the Spectacal OEM i1 Display is the standard X-Rite i1 Display Pro which is 5x faster than the previous devices (According to X-Rite's site) and the C6 is special Hardware that is 5x faster than the Retail X-rite i1 Display Pro (According to SpectraCal's Site) this would make the C6 25x faster and more accurate than the previous released Devices???

Can anyone substantiate this claim?
If this is true it might justify the price point.

The 5x speed difference is an X-Rite claim with no specific reference.

We do not claim such a difference, it was included in some of the initial press releases, but we have tried to remove references too it, since it is just confusing.
post #215 of 1402
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtgray View Post

It is patently obvious that as usual there is an intent to do so. Good old fashioned FUD is being planted far and wide.

The pet cat relationship between X-Rite and SpectraCal is once more in evidence. It is hard to figure who is more deserving of disdain for the way this is being handled.. X-Rite or SpectraCal?

I'm not sure what FUD you think we are spreading?

We will have an OEM i1 Display Pro that is simple the same OEM meter all OEMs are getting and we are getting a higher sku C6 that is specific hardware from XRite for us. Since we haven't gotten the final run C6 hardware we haven't provided specs, since we don't want to be specific about the absolute differences without validating it in our lab. We should be getting final hardware soon.

If you remember SpectraCal was trying to patiently wait for the final info from XRite, but another member of the community opened this discussion and did so with incorrect facts, such as that the colormunki would be supported in their app.
post #216 of 1402
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

The 5x speed difference is an X-Rite claim with no specific reference.

We do not claim such a difference, it was included in some of the initial press releases, but we have tried to remove references too it, since it is just confusing.

I think its miss-leading advertising.
This is right off of Spectracal's web site.

■Up to 5x faster than retail models

This page...
http://consumer.spectracal.com/products/spectracal-c6

So as far as I can tell SpectraCal is making the claim that the C6 is 5x faster then X-Rites Retail Models!!!
post #217 of 1402
X-Rite also offers OEMs the chance to do custom labeling and packaging at added cost. Some sellers may choose to do so. ChromaPure does not to keep costs down.

OEMs are therefore allowed to put a custom label (or red racing stripes) on the meter and call it whatever they want.

I would imagine that trying to compare X-Rite part numbers/SKUs is meaningless. An OEM ordering a standard an X-Rite i1 Display PRO III meter with their own custom labelling/packaging would likely have an X-Rite part number that is different from the standard meter. If it didn't, how would X-Rite tell them apart when you call up to order?


Kal
post #218 of 1402
Quote:
Originally Posted by kal View Post

X-Rite also offers OEMs the chance to do custom labeling and packaging at added cost. Some sellers may choose to do so. ChromaPure does not to keep costs down.

OEMs are therefore allowed to put a custom label (or red racing stripes) on the meter and call it whatever they want.

Kal

I'm not sure if your post is directed at me but I have no issue with the color or the name of the product just the claim it's 5x faster than the X-Rite retail models and it is different hardware as stated in this thread. That puts the product in a class of its own and not just a paint job or a name.
post #219 of 1402
No, not directed at anyone. Just trying to point out some facts and mentioning that comparing X-Rite part numbers isn't a reliable way to determine if hardware is the same or different.

Kal
post #220 of 1402
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

I'm not sure what FUD you think we are spreading?

We will have an OEM i1 Display Pro that is simple the same OEM meter all OEMs are getting and we are getting a higher sku C6 that is specific hardware from XRite for us. Since we haven't gotten the final run C6 hardware we haven't provided specs, since we don't want to be specific about the absolute differences without validating it in our lab. We should be getting final hardware soon.

If you remember SpectraCal was trying to patiently wait for the final info from XRite, but another member of the community opened this discussion and did so with incorrect facts, such as that the colormunki would be supported in their app.

There are many of us in the community who see practices in the cozy special relationship that while not bordering on monopolistic are clearly intended to provide advantages to the larger developer at both the smaller vendors and the community's expense.

I am all for market differentitation and product selection.. but the idea that the vendor with the more expensive solutions is given an extra advantage beyond their already signifacnt size and market penetration has not ever smelled even remotely fair.

If in fact X-Rite once again gives a competitve advantage to their pet partner it will only reinforce how rigged the game has been and will continue to be.

Limited time exclusives are one thing. Stacked decks for as far ahead as the eye can see are another.
post #221 of 1402
Quote:
Originally Posted by kal View Post

No, not directed at anyone. Just trying to point out some facts and mentioning that comparing X-Rite part numbers isn't a reliable way to determine if hardware is the same or different.

Kal

I see you have edited your post...

I would assume X-Rite would be able to provide a specs list if we are able to make a request based on an actual manufactures part number and not a third party marketing name.

How do you tell one product from another without a manufacturer's part number and a specification list?

If this product is only made for SpectraCal maybe the request for a specs list would have to come from them?
post #222 of 1402
Quote:
Originally Posted by kal View Post

No, not directed at anyone. Just trying to point out some facts and mentioning that comparing X-Rite part numbers isn't a reliable way to determine if hardware is the same or different.

Kal

So that means if it is damned nigh impossible to compare X-Rite revs of the same product, how are we going to cross shop, the repackaged materials.

Why would or should we not be able to make informed intelligent decisions about buying a precision measurement instrument? The resellers are intended to be adding value by bundling instruments with their applications. Not hitting tricky dicky price points by offering varying degrees of crippled.

If one vendor does not want to offer feature "Z" in their offering fine.. that should be up to that particular vendor. I can hang with that. If vendor one offers feature "Z" because they choose to I can decide who I support with my purchase dollars, but if vendor one can't offer "Z" even though he wants to then the dice are loaded.

It is fairly straightforward to look at demos of the software and get a sense of how that value equation turns.. but when you suddenly muddy up the waters completely by making the instrument, the supposedly objective transparent piece, a mystery than you are clearly more concerned with protecting certain partner margins than in serving your real customer, the end user.

It is not clear yet there are any villians here, but past tendencies make it is easy to be suspicious.
post #223 of 1402
Quote:
Originally Posted by CpuZapper333 View Post

I see you have edited your post...

I would assume X-Rite would be able to provide a specs list if we are able to make a request based on an actual manufactures part number and not a third party marketing name.

How do you tell one product from another without a manufacturer’s part number and a specification list?

If this product is only made for SpectraCal maybe the request for a specs list would have to come from them?

These kind of practices go on all the time in lots of industries, ever try to get Seagate to tell you the specs on an OEM 1 TB HP Seagate.. you will probably get nothing out of Seagate beyond a referral back to the OEM who will tell you less.

The OEM will likely only reveal what they want you to know and the manufacturer (let's use Seagate in this example) will defer to their non-disclosure agreement and refer you back to the OEM/integrator, say HP. They don't care about you on either side really. But you are talking about one, and they are dealing in millions. With meters each end user is an important client relatively speaking. If I buy an X-Rite III, 3 Pro ZY GT then I might be one of thousands but not one in tens of millions. I should be regarded a little higher than the poor SOB calling Seagate with the HP OEM drive.

There are times and places for this non-sense, I don't think creating a murky soup around colorimeters does anything postitive for the end user. Despite what folks like SpectraCal think, it is end users who buy meters... SpectraCal is just a reseller. If I can't afford their meter my satisfaction with them is low. Sure they hate competition, but without it what would the state of the consumer/prosumer tools be today and just how big would that market be? Let's have a little creative destruction here, that is how markets get bigger.

The money in the long run is in selling lots of meters, meters move software license revenue, high meter prices don't really encourage that.. sure it can allow a manufacturer and their reseller partner to be rewared for a time with a fair crop of mushrooms. You know the old saw, feed them bs and keep them in the dark. Over time though light creeps in, mushrooms don't grow nearly as well where the light it. Where the light is, is where the really big crops grow. I vote for transparency.
post #224 of 1402
SpectraCAL offers NIST Certification Service for Chroma 5, Hubble/OTC-1000, Klein K-10 with 149$

http://www.spectracal.com/newProduct...VUYOHVTUZLCHLM

Maybe that NIST Certification will be available in the furure for OEM i1Display too.
post #225 of 1402
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

If you remember SpectraCal was trying to patiently wait for the final info from XRite, but another member of the community opened this discussion and did so with incorrect facts, such as that the colormunki would be supported in their app.

Not correct, Tom did not say this on the thread. Tom was always going to supply OEM meters. This misinformation came from the UK, and that was researched before being announced, but contacts within Xrite UK/EU had not been informed of the lockdown of the retail meters. This is not Xrite's usual practice, but have seen fit to do so this for some reason.

What has confused everyone is the packaging of the meter. The retail meters, and the OEM look identical in basic appearance, as does your c6 (apart from exterior characteristics). It would have been far easier to understand if the meters had physical differences as they were going to lock the retail meters down...
post #226 of 1402
Quote:
Originally Posted by CpuZapper333 View Post

How do you tell one product from another without a manufacturer’s part number and a specification list?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gtgray View Post

So that means if it is damned nigh impossible to compare X-Rite revs of the same product, how are we going to cross shop, the repackaged materials.

That is the million dollar question now isn't it?

This is true for any product: If the customer does not have the hard facts and/or specifications to do the comparison they want they should ask and keep asking until they are satisfied.

Kal
post #227 of 1402
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtgray View Post

These kind of practices go on all the time in lots of industries, ever try to get Seagate to tell you the specs on an OEM 1 TB HP Seagate.. you will probably get nothing out of Seagate beyond a referral back to the OEM who will tell you less.

The OEM will likely only reveal what they want you to know and the manufacturer (let's use Seagate in this example) will defer to their non-disclosure agreement and refer you back to the OEM/integrator, say HP. They don't care about you on either side really. But you are talking about one, and they are dealing in millions. With meters each end user is an important client relatively speaking. If I buy an X-Rite III, 3 Pro ZY GT then I might be one of thousands but not one in tens of millions. I should be regarded a little higher than the poor SOB calling Seagate with the HP OEM drive.

There are times and places for this non-sense, I don't think creating a murky soup around colorimeters does anything postitive for the end user. Despite what folks like SpectraCal think, it is end users who buy meters... SpectraCal is just a reseller. If I can't afford their meter my satisfaction with them is low. Sure they hate competition, but without it what would the state of the consumer/prosumer tools be today and just how big would that market be? Let's have a little creative destruction here, that is how markets get bigger.

The money in the long run is in selling lots of meters, meters move software license revenue, high meter prices don't really encourage that.. sure it can allow a manufacturer and their reseller partner to be rewared for a time with a fair crop of mushrooms. You know the old saw, feed them bs and keep them in the dark. Over time though light creeps in, mushrooms don't grow nearly as well where the light it. Where the light is, is where the really big crops grow. I vote for transparency.

I agree. Something is smelling fishy at SpectraCal. I don't know what to think with their Red racing stripe C6 now . I think my $$$ is going to Chromapure.
post #228 of 1402
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ranger View Post

I agree. Something is smelling fishy at SpectraCal. I don't know what to think with their Red racing stripe C6 now . I think my $$$ is going to Chromapure.

You know what, I honestly don't know what to think of it either yet.

We ordered X-Rite's higher end OEM product, and haven't gotten them yet or run them through our lab yet. That's why we don't have specs for them yet.

I do know that our base OEM i1 Display is the same hardware as the other i1 Display Pro meters. So accuracy and speed there will be the same across the board. We do know some of the features the C6 will have through our discussions with X-Rite, including increased accuracy, but until we get it in our lab with multiple samples, we aren't willing to talk about accuracy and repeatability.
post #229 of 1402
Quote:
Originally Posted by kal View Post

That is the million dollar question now isn't it?

This is true for any product: If the customer does not have the hard facts and/or specifications to do the comparison they want they should ask and keep asking until they are satisfied.

Kal

Once we get the hardware and establish what the specifications we are NIST certifying the meter for, you will then have what we are willing to vouch for a C6 being capable of.

The fact that every C6 will come with that certification, should be sufficient for confirming the increased accuracy of the claims.
post #230 of 1402
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

You know what, I honestly don't know what to think of it either yet.

We ordered X-Rite's higher end OEM product, and haven't gotten them yet or run them through our lab yet. That's why we don't have specs for them yet.

SpectraCal C6 is $595 until 7/31/11. Then it's up to $695. Based on what you are saying. Why would anyone want to purchase this device at this point? You really ought to have your company extend the sale price to a month or so after the product has launched. We don't even know what we are paying for yet.
post #231 of 1402
Quote:
Originally Posted by razz1 View Post

spectracal c6 is $595 until 7/31/11. Then it's up to $695. Based on what you are saying. Why would anyone want to purchase this device at this point? You really ought to have your company extend the sale price to a month or so after the product has launched. We don't even know what we are paying for yet.

+1
post #232 of 1402
Quote:
Originally Posted by Razz1 View Post

SpectraCal C6 is $595 until 7/31/11. Then it's up to $695. Based on what you are saying. Why would anyone want to purchase this device at this point? You really ought to have your company extend the sale price to a month or so after the product has launched. We don't even know what we are paying for yet.

That's an extremely valid point.

I'm just a programmer, so I don't get to make those kind of decisions, but I will pass that along.

Also I'm sure if you called up sales they'd figure out a way to accommodate you till we get the specs of our NIST cert set in stone.
post #233 of 1402
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pers1 View Post

Can I just buy the i1D3 OEM and profile it against the i1Pro or would a Display 3 PRO have some advantages against the OME even if I profiled it against my i1Pro

The only advantage would be ease-of-use. You would not have to do the profiling. Otherwise, the standard Display 3 would be fine in your case.
post #234 of 1402
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

Just so there's no confusion, all i1 Display Pro III's, regardless of which vendor they are purchased from and regardless of which configuration in which they are sold, and regardless of how they are named, will have the same lens, the same diffuser, the same filters, the same form factor, the same photo-sensitive diodes, and the same core firmware.

The only differences will be with respect to packaging, labeling, extra accessories, and any corrections provided to improve accuracy. These corrections can be stored on the meter's EEPROM or in the vendor's software. The vendor may also choose to password protect their meters so they may not be used by other software packages.

As a matter of policy, ChromaPure does not and will never lock their OEM meters so they may not be used with other software. We will be happy to support any OEM i1Display Pro III, regardless of which vendor from which it was purchased, unless that vendor's policies prevent this.

Finally, the corrections provided in our PRO configuration are stored in the license file and processed in the application. No change is made to the meter itself.

Thanks Tom.
You are a gentleman.


Does that mean the Chromapure OEM version (and possibly any OEM version) could be used by HCFR when they update their software?
Would they also be able to deal with the integration time of the SDK without any access code,
and also get the benefit of the "5 times faster"?
post #235 of 1402
Quote:
Originally Posted by leDahu View Post

Thanks Tom.
You are a gentleman.


Does that mean the Chromapure OEM version (and possibly any OEM version) could be used by HCFR when they update their software?
Would they also be able to deal with the integration time of the SDK without any access code,
and also get the benefit of the "5 times faster"?

I think you mean if. It hasn't been updated since January 2009.
post #236 of 1402
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

The vendor may also choose to password protect their meters so they may not be used by other software packages.

As a matter of policy, ChromaPure does not and will never lock their OEM meters so they may not be used with other software. We will be happy to support any OEM i1Display Pro III, regardless of which vendor from which it was purchased, unless that vendor's policies prevent this.

Finally, the corrections provided in our PRO configuration are stored in the license file and processed in the application. No change is made to the meter itself.

ChromaPure's policy regarding meter locking is very clear. I would like to know what is SpectraCal's policy about this. More precisely:

- Does SpectraCal intend to prevent OEM I1Display meters sold by SpectraCal to be used with other software (such as ChromaPure) ?

- Will SpectraCal allow usage of OEM I1Display meters sold by another company with CalMAN ?
post #237 of 1402
Quote:
Originally Posted by boum View Post

ChromaPure's policy regarding meter locking is very clear. I would like to know what is SpectraCal's policy about this. More precisely:

- Does SpectraCal intend to prevent OEM I1Display meters sold by SpectraCal to be used with other software (such as ChromaPure) ?

- Will SpectraCal allow usage of OEM I1Display meters sold by another company with CalMAN ?


We aren't going to be doing anything to actively prevent this. X-Rite is the one setting up the passwords for the meter.

We are only going to follow the terms of our licensing agreement with X-Rite.
post #238 of 1402
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

We aren't going to be doing anything to actively prevent this.

I understand that the intent may not be to stop the meter from working from other software, but that doesn't mean that that won't happen.

To be fair the question needs to be asked as:

Will SpectraCal make any changes to the OEM I1Display meters sold by SpectraCal?

Case in point: Past Chroma 5 meters sold by SpectraCal did not work in ChromaPure or X-Rite test software because of changes that SpectraCal made to the meters. They would only work in CalMAN. Until these changes were undone by the SpectraCal lab (a service that SpectraCal provided to users that asked), the Chroma 5 meters would only work in CalMAN.

(Users don't care if the reason their meter doesn't work in other software is because of something that is actively done to prevent this use, or if it's because of a side effect of something else... all they care about is whether their meter will work in other software or not).

Tom has indicated that his OEM I1Display meters will not be altered. Is the same true for SpectraCal?

Full disclosure: Yes, I sell ChromaPure. I'm just trying to get clear information for everyone that may want to purchase as I get asked these questions every day.

Kal
post #239 of 1402
The OEM i1 Display Pro's will be unaltered by us.

The C6 obviously are ours.

The Chroma5 update to create the enhanced version required the update so we could probably recognize the meter and didn't require individual keys in order for the accuracy to work, so unlike chromapure, you could plug that enhanced chroma5 into anybodies CalMAN and get the enhanced accuracy.
post #240 of 1402
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by leDahu View Post

Does that mean the Chromapure OEM version (and possibly any OEM version) could be used by HCFR when they update their software?
Would they also be able to deal with the integration time of the SDK without any access code,
and also get the benefit of the "5 times faster"?

I seriously doubt that HCFR will ever be able to support the OEM Display 3. To do so they would need to be an X-Rite OEM partner (they buy meters from X-Rite and sell them bundled with their software). Since HCFR gives their software away for free and isn't in the meter selling business, I don't see this happening.

Actually, this illustrates an interesting point about freeware. It is obviously appealing to consumers. The price is certainly right. However, it also carries with it some fairly serious downsides. HCFR hasn't been updated in years and is very limited in terms of the hardware it supports.

I think that the HCFR team should commended for what they have done to make video calibration accessible to a wider market, but it's pretty clear that without any profit potential, the product's long term viability does not look good.

Obviously, there are some examples of vibrant freeware--the Web browser market is the best example. But this is the exception rather than the rule, especially when the software in question needs to interface with another commercial product to function.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Display Calibration
AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Display Calibration › X-Rite's Revolutionary New Colorimeter