Is Plasma TV on deathbed? - Page 2

Originally Posted by DocuMaker

Nonsense. The blacks are gray on the PDP compared to the LED. Even worse if you engage Cinema Smooth. I am talking in a dark room. In a room with daylight, there are no real blacks on the D7000 PDP, but varying shades of gray. The truth of the matter is you probably just don't know how to set-up an LED properly. Plasmas admittedly are simpler to setup for novices.

Even off axis the LED's will have better blacks than your PDP. Deal with it.

Originally Posted by whipit

The 65vt30 after calibration uses 285 watts. The sharp70" is rated 238 watts, sounds like way less and the picture is crap on the lcd compared to a pdp.

Originally Posted by dlplover

It's also keenly aware to me that in your world, the only sets people would consider buying are Samsung lcd's or Samsung plasmas. Seems like a pretty heavy bias. If I were to buy an LCD I seriously doubt I would be looking at a Samsung.

Originally Posted by dlplover

Quantifier: in a room were you have the set directly facing a wall that happens to be a window

Originally Posted by DocuMaker

Even off axis the LED's will have better blacks than your PDP. Deal with it.

Originally Posted by DocuMaker

Perhaps you do not know how to set one up. Or perhaps you had a string of bad luck. Not everyone has complaints about their D8000 LED--just a few loudmouth nitpickers on AVS. The same types that complain about DSE on the Kuros, floating blacks on the VT25, brightness fluctuations on the VT30, and blooming on the HX929. In other words, people who just look for something to complain about with a set. Some of the people who call the D8000 trash also returned Kuro Elite 111's because of the dirty screen effect. Their opinions are suspect, to say the least.



Nonsense. The blacks are gray on the PDP compared to the LED. Even worse if you engage Cinema Smooth. I am talking in a dark room. In a room with daylight, there are no real blacks on the D7000 PDP, but varying shades of gray. The truth of the matter is you probably just don't know how to set-up an LED properly. Plasmas admittedly are simpler to setup for novices.



This shows how totally unobjective you are. You obviously had some kind of bad experience and are soured by it, and cannot think objectively. When you make foolish and outrageous comments like this, it shows that your opinions are not relevant.



Yeah, just fine. The black levels on the D8000 LED are better than Samsung's plasmas. You obviously do not know what you are talking about, for if you want to watch as they are shot, you would use Cinema Smooth. That is the whole point of Cinema Smooth, to avoid using 3:2 pulldown, which is NOT how it is shot or encoded on the disc.



Umm, go educate yourself, ok? By not engaging Cinema Smooth, and using 3:2 pulldown, you are NOT watching films with the same cadence as the director intended.



How about Samsung themself? Samsung typically calls their flagship LED their best HDTV, not their PDP. Please educate yourself.



Even off axis the LED's will have better blacks than your PDP. Deal with it.

Originally Posted by s2mikey

Seriously, LCDs have made some strides in their performance and are no longer just glorified computer monitors. But, look at what they have to go through to get good PQ: LED dimming, motion enhancement filters, refresh rate shenanigans, post processing gibberish, etc, etc. Plasma just does it naturally and without any snake oil or junk science.

Nothing wrong with a top-end LCD - if the price is right and the LCD meets someones needs more than a plasma. The only situations I could see that being the case would be LOTS of ambient room lighting or heavy gaming. Otherwise you get more from top-qualty plasmas than you do with top-quality LCDs. And it costs you less too.

Originally Posted by DocuMaker

Total nonsense. Claiming that PDP looks better than an LCD/LED in a bright room is pure ignorance. You need to get up to speed.

Originally Posted by Gellidius

WOW! a 65 inch CRT! i never heard of that; they must have weighted as much as a truck.
;-)

Originally Posted by DocuMaker

Rated by whom? In which picture mode? After calibration? I doubt it. CNET rates a 50 inch GT30 at $54.08 per year, and you are trying to snow us into believing that your much larger 59 inch D8000 PDP is rated for only $37 a year?

NOT after calibration. Who cares about overly-dim default standard picture mode which was purposely made dim to make PDP's seem like they use less energy, which no videophile will ever use.

EDIT: I just looked it up on CNET. AFTER proper calibration, the 59D8000 is rated to cost $72.66 per year. A far cry from the BOGUS $37 a year you quoted.

http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-t...ml?tag=rvwBody

Originally Posted by DocuMaker

Don't be silly. Plasmas have many shortcomings and are not totally "natural" looking. PWM or dither noise for starters. I've owned around 20 plasmas, including Samsung, Panasonic, Pioneer, and Hitachi, so I am well aware of the plasma "look". Sorry, but all these plasmas I've owned simply cannot deliver the kind of clean crisp picture that a top-notch LED can deliver. They are inherently noisier. I've also had about 9 LED's. There is just something cleaner and crisper in the processing on my 240Hz Sammy LED's.

So don't give me this crap about "tricks" that LED's must use to look "natural". Plasmas must use the "trick" of dithering to render certain colors. There is nothing natural about that.

A large part of the reason certain LCD's and LED's do not look natural is because of matte screens. Plasmas use glass, which gives them a certain sense of depth, like looking through a window. You can get this same effect with a glossy screened LCD/LED instead of a matte screen. The matte screen is the problem, not the LCD. LCD's used to also lack this depth because of poor contrast. This has been addressed, and you can get black levels just as deep if not deeper on LCD-LED's these days as you can get from (non-Kuro) plasma.



There really aren't a lot of top quality plasmas--my whole point. LG's just don't cut it. LG = Lotsa Glare/Lower Grade.

All that leaves is Panasonic and Samsung. Neither of these can even do 96hz properly without something like false contouring, flicker, or elevated black levels.

Most people recommend NOT using the 96hz feature on Samsung and Panasonic plasmas, and sticking with 3:2 pulldown.

Originally Posted by rogo

Mac, just to be clear, Energy Guide != Energy Star. The Energy Guide numbers are generated using setting I would personally consider unrealistic for most people, as I addressed in another thread. All that said, there are people on these forums you are better off ignoring. I'm sure you will get my drift. Keep on keeping on, sir.

Originally Posted by DocuMaker

You really need to stop telling lies about me, dlplover. It's really unbecoming, and it hurts your credibility here on the forum. I have never suggested that people only buy Samsungs. The PROOF is in the archives. I made no bones about it--I would gladly swap my D8000 LED straight across for an HX929. What does that tell you? Based on pure performance, I think the Sony is better. Now, if Samsung had a D8500 that was locally-dimmed, I would probably prefer the Samsung, but they don't. I would also probably rather have one of those Toshiba ZL2's or whatever the latest model is that has over 3,000 LED and 512 dimming zones over my Sammy. But the problem is, Toshi just doesn't seem to have their act together, and you can't seem to get one in the U.S. I don't live in Japan, so it does me no good.

LG doesn't have their act together for 2011. They don't even have their high-end fully-backlit locally-dimmed LED out in the wild yet. Vaporware as far as I am concerned.

If you want to know the truth, far from being a Samsung fanboy, I am the most disappointed with Samsung this year.

1) They did not return to fully-backlit local-dimming with their flagship LED
2) The black levels on their PDP's aren't any better than last year, and CS is still wonked for the third year in a row! Why even buy a 2011 D model? For a slightly smaller bezel and an extra inch to go along with your RBF peeling off? No thanks, I will stick with my 2010 model for now, thank you very much.

Originally Posted by DocuMaker

Most people do not set their TV's directly in FRONT of a window, blocking the light and the view outside. They either have windows directly across or at least off to the sides, but still somewhere in front of their plasma. If I could be satisfied with a puny 50 inch plasma like you've got, sure, I could shove it in the corner somewhat away from the light. Of course that would seriously mess up the imaging of my soundstage, but oh well. Try shoving a 63 inch plasma in some corner away from a window. Much easier with a 50.

Originally Posted by Macleod52

Oh, I understand the ratings. Even at the highest range it's still not too bad. I'm not denying that LCD's are far superior in the energy conservation, but Plasma's aren't as bad as Doc is making them out to seem.

Originally Posted by DocuMaker

Is that the best you got for an argument?

First of all, which specific 70 inch Sharp are you referring to? The Sharp 732 is a full-array LED without local-dimming, so it is going to use more power than a locally-dimmed or edge-lit model. How convenient for your comparison.

Furthermore, a 70 inch TV is roughly 16% more screensize than a 65. So add 16% to your 65VT30 bringing it up to 330 watts.

Please point us to where you got the watts figures for both the Sharp and the VT30.

Originally Posted by DocuMaker

My proof is my eyes. I have owned most all the top LED's and PDP's from Samsung the last few years.

B8500
C8000
C9000
D8000

Originally Posted by greenland

Sounds like they just do not last very long!

Originally Posted by agogley

Dude, this guy arguing for LCD/LEDs is a bit over the top, but Samsung makes a great product.

Originally Posted by Gellidius

recently, i've heard rumors saying manufacturers will stop making plasma TV's very soon.

i tend to think that this is all sales pitch in order to sell more LCD's and to avoid seeing potential buyers go somewhere else.

is there any truth in this?

Originally Posted by DocuMaker

Don't be silly. Plasmas have many shortcomings and are not totally "natural" looking. PWM or dither noise for starters. I've owned around 20 plasmas, including Samsung, Panasonic, Pioneer, and Hitachi, so I am well aware of the plasma "look". Sorry, but all these plasmas I've owned simply cannot deliver the kind of clean crisp picture that a top-notch LED can deliver. They are inherently noisier. I've also had about 9 LED's. There is just something cleaner and crisper in the processing on my 240Hz Sammy LED's.

So don't give me this crap about "tricks" that LED's must use to look "natural". Plasmas must use the "trick" of dithering to render certain colors. There is nothing natural about that.

A large part of the reason certain LCD's and LED's do not look natural is because of matte screens. Plasmas use glass, which gives them a certain sense of depth, like looking through a window. You can get this same effect with a glossy screened LCD/LED instead of a matte screen. The matte screen is the problem, not the LCD. LCD's used to also lack this depth because of poor contrast. This has been addressed, and you can get black levels just as deep if not deeper on LCD-LED's these days as you can get from (non-Kuro) plasma.

There really aren't a lot of top quality plasmas--my whole point. LG's just don't cut it. LG = Lotsa Glare/Lower Grade.

All that leaves is Panasonic and Samsung. Neither of these can even do 96hz properly without something like false contouring, flicker, or elevated black levels.

Most people recommend NOT using the 96hz feature on Samsung and Panasonic plasmas, and sticking with 3:2 pulldown.

Originally Posted by greenland

Dude; It was snark. I was lampooning his over the top claim that he has owned them all.

I don't understand why some people feel that they have to come into the plasma forum and promote LCD/LED panels, or the other way around. The more they push to do that, the less credible I find them to be. Why on earth would anyone looking for to purchase a TV set take advice from such an obsessed person?!

Originally Posted by Uronacid

Wow, I'm surprised at all the Sammy fanaticism. I guess I can't blade the guy. When you spend a couple thousand dollars on a TV, you want it to be the best. You want to defend your investment. I will say, I love my GT30 55". It is, by far, the best HDTV I have ever owned. I do not see Plasma panels going anywhere any time soon. There's just so much bang for buck in the technology.

Originally Posted by agogley

People get wrapped up in defending their own purchase. I owned one of the first Pioneer Elites (910 HD) and it was a fantastic set. At the time I bought it, most people on this forum were rabidly pro-panasonic over pioneer elite. I think it brought out a little bit of my defensive nature at the time. But I think I matured and realized that all of our needs are not the same, neither are our individual tastes. Buying a panel is more than which one has the highest contrast ratio.

I just replaced my Pioneer with a Sammy. I didn't pick it because I thought the performance was much greater than Panny. In fact, I have a 61" NEC that I'd like to replace one day with a larger set and would consider the 65" Panny. But I purchased the Samsung mostly because I wanted a razor thin set and Samsung offered a 1.4" PDP that fit the bill. It did help that CNET gave the Samsungs from 2010 very high marks.