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Building a Dinner Theater w/ DIY Speakers, Subs, etc... - Page 8

post #211 of 585
was just by there today.
post #212 of 585
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by stormwind13 View Post

was just by there today.

By that area...Or specifically by our building?
post #213 of 585
So I just checked out your pictures on your first page. Looks like most of the stone siding is up, looks really nice. Also, I really like how you've finished off the speakers, they're actually rather pretty. I wouldn't have thought of painting them gray but they're pretty stunning in that color. How did you apply the paint, with a brush or spray? Also, did you route the edges on the 1 PIs? When the theater is complete will you be able to see the 1 PI speakers or will they be hidden? I think hiding them would be a bit of shame!
post #214 of 585
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sx460 View Post

So I just checked out your pictures on your first page. Looks like most of the stone siding is up, looks really nice. Also, I really like how you've finished off the speakers, they're actually rather pretty. I wouldn't have thought of painting them gray but they're pretty stunning in that color. How did you apply the paint, with a brush or spray? Also, did you route the edges on the 1 PIs? When the theater is complete will you be able to see the 1 PI speakers or will they be hidden? I think hiding them would be a bit of shame!

I did not route the corners...the enclosures are perfectly square. I painted them with a black concrete epoxy using a sponge roller.
post #215 of 585
Nice thread. I've been on here (lurked on here) for years now. But hadn't seen this thread yet.

Being from DSM, I'll have to check this out some time.
post #216 of 585
Quote:
Originally Posted by dutchswan0311 View Post

Now that I think about it, I do have a couple more comments about the possibility of my new Onkyo 709 failing. I may not be an amp/AVR guy; but I am a computer guy and I know that most computers that fail do so because of overheating. The cheaper the components, the less resilient they are to heat and thus they end up having higher failure rates. I would imagine also that, while many of the resistors and capacitors in the Onkyo are not top of the line, 99% of people who purchase them are probably not using the pre-outs and are using the AVR's amps to drive their speakers. Using the preouts, and driving my speakers with separate pro-amps will probably allow the AVR itself to run quite cool with its amps unused; thereby drastically reducing the likelihood of failure to a negligible consideration.

Thoughts? Does anyone disagree with my assessment?

Just saw you question today and thought I would weigh in. I have an Onkyo 805 and find that it runs very hot...but not from the amps. In my experience it is the digital processing that generates a lot of the heat, as it runs hot even when used as a preamp.

My solution was to purchase a componnet cooling fan (http://www.coolerguys.com/compcooling.html) for $65.00. It runs nearly silent and I just plug into the switched power plug on the back of the receiver. I have used it for 5 years without any failures and it keeps the Onkyo quite cool. There are numerous options on their website but I bought the Comcool Dual 120mm Component Cooling Stand as it looked decent and could be used with a temperature controller (which I never used).

I have no affilation with Coolerguys and there may be better/cheaper alternatives available, but I know that I haven't thought about excessive heat since adding the twin fans.
post #217 of 585
Thread Starter 
I finished sanding the 2nd F20 and started measuring for my 3rd F20 today. Below is a mock up of what the chassis I need to build will look like so far. Am I taking a good approach? A bad approach? Suggestions?

The idea would be fore the fans at the bottom to be intake, and the fans at the top to be blowing out.

post #218 of 585
Quote:
Originally Posted by dutchswan0311 View Post


By that area...Or specifically by our building?

Through that area.
post #219 of 585
Are the amps built like servers - cool into the front hot out the back?
Where will the rack be installed?
If you can seal off the back i'd install a separate exhaust fan on the back side that pumps air out of the space - maybe into the HVAC system.

That said, I'd eliminate the top fan blowing hot air back into the front space.
And starting from the top, I'd install:
8 amps
2 power strips
Oppo bluray player
1RU blanking plate
1RU fan unit (check the alignment with vent holes on the receiver - would be nice if same depth)
4RU receiver
2RU fan unit
post #220 of 585
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by petew View Post

Are the amps built like servers - cool into the front hot out the back?
Where will the rack be installed?
If you can seal off the back i'd install a separate exhaust fan on the back side that pumps air out of the space - maybe into the HVAC system.

That said, I'd eliminate the top fan blowing hot air back into the front space.
And starting from the top, I'd install:
8 amps
2 power strips
Oppo bluray player
1RU blanking plate
1RU fan unit (check the alignment with vent holes on the receiver - would be nice if same depth)
4RU receiver
2RU fan unit

I saw a 1U unit with six fans that had the same depth as the Onkyo. I believe the Crowns do suck in air from the front and then blow it out the back. I intend for the back if the case to be fairly open, though it may have a grate of some kind to keep the wires in. I imagine it on wheels so that it can easily be pulled in and out of the "in wall" type of installation. Its not exactly in wall, but venting considerations will be similar to that kind of installation (so venting out the back would not be easy). I also figured "heat rises" so having it vent out of the front would not affect the temperature of the air intake at the bottom. Additional thoughts are welcome.
post #221 of 585
Cool project. My thoughts on the rack, if the amplifiers do indeed pull in from the front and vent out the back, the exhaust fan will need to be able to move an amount of air equal to or greater than the sum of all the amplifier fans. If it does not it will actually restrict airflow out of the cabinet area. Having an opening at the top with the additional inlet fan at the bottom would be a better solution IMO if the exhaust fan does not meet the criteria.
If possible I would suggest to do a remote fan ducted to the top of the enclosure area. Again, the fan would need to move more air than the amplifiers and I would leave an open area at the bottom.
post #222 of 585
Behringers airflow is from the rear to the front. Why? I don't know. It seems counterintuitive. And there is even a filter on the front AFTER the air passes through the amp. Doesn't make much sense to me.
post #223 of 585
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyng_fool View Post

Behringers airflow is from the rear to the front. Why? I don't know. It seems counterintuitive. And there is even a filter on the front AFTER the air passes through the amp. Doesn't make much sense to me.

It's called poorly copying someone's design.
post #224 of 585
Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post

It's called poorly copying someone's design.

It seems to work well enough. I've never had any problems yet.
post #225 of 585
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyng_fool View Post

Behringers airflow is from the rear to the front. Why? I don't know. It seems counterintuitive. And there is even a filter on the front AFTER the air passes through the amp. Doesn't make much sense to me.

I don't think it will be an issue for me, since I ordered the Crown XLSs. I pick them up tomorrow morning.
post #226 of 585
Thread Starter 
I have updated page 1 of this build thread to include some new and pretty awesome photos of the winery. I finished the 2nd F20 and am now starting on the 3rd.

Also, I have nixed the idea of building my own rack and have purchased the rack below from one of our AVS brethren. He is bringing it over tomorrow.

post #227 of 585
Thread Starter 
2 Down...2 To Go

post #228 of 585
Very nice...

ETA on first fire-up?

JSS
post #229 of 585
Thread Starter 
This week, I hope. I was supposed to pick up the amps and drivers on Saturday, but learned Friday night that they were delayed until Tuesday. If all goes well, I should be able to fire this pair up Tuesday or Wednesday. I don't have the drivers for the 4pi speakers yet, so will have to pair them up with a couple of 1pis.
post #230 of 585
Thread Starter 
Amps came in today. Now I can start testing speakers as I finish them.

post #231 of 585
Stack O Crowns....very excited!
post #232 of 585
Thread Starter 
I posted the following on "lilkmike's" thread. I thought I would repost here to get more specific feedback to our application.

Started testing my first pair of F20s using the 390HF driver...
There are five lights on the front of the amps for each channel. Three are green, the fourth is red and is labeled "clip", the fifth is red and is labeled "thermal". With the amps set to full power (allegedly 350W for each channel at 4 ohms) the fourth light labeled "clip" starts to flicker at the peaks when the volume of the AVR reaches 75% - 80% while playing Katy Perry's ET...and so I have not pushed them past that point yet. The subs themselves sound fine at that level. I am just new to this and don't know what I don't know...but I do know I don't want to break anything. I have yet to hear the subs distort or sound bad. The AVR is connected to the amps with RCA cables.

I should note that I was just using the bookshelf speakers from my home theater for the L&R Channels and didn't push these very hard with the amps. The crossovers for my 4pi speakers should arrive in a week. I would imagine the 15" JBL 2226H woofers will add a lot to the bass above 80Hz.
post #233 of 585
Thread Starter 
I should also note that the amps are rated at 350W RMS and the 390HFs are rated at 500W RMS. Even though the F20 enslosure is bandwidth limited, I would think that the amps would be incapable of physically harming the woofer...and that the woofer would be more likely to harm the amps given their ratings. But again, I am still somewhat new to this arena so I might not be understanding everything correctly.

The XLS2000s (which are not doing anything yet) are advertised at 650W/channel into 4ohms. I wonder if I should hook the pair of F20s up to that ... not to drive the F20s harder, but to see if the XLS2000 experiences any clipping given the added headroom. Someone on lilmikes thread mentioned that it might be the AVR causing the clipping instead of the amp. I would think running the subs with the XLS2000 would be a way to troubleshoot this question.
post #234 of 585
Thread Starter 
An updated picture from last weekend. It's coming together! I am still wiring the outer walls with electricity and then it will get open cell spray foamed.

post #235 of 585
Wow!

About the F20s....you said you were running music through them. Music rarely contains content less than 30Hz, so the F20 can take all 500W without reaching Xmax above 23Hz or so. Movies, on the other hand, will test the F20's limits.

Careful testing will reveal where those limits are. Using Soho54's Audio Test DVD's -0.5dB LFE tracks can really help, along with a careful gain structure setup.

Unless you highpass, the F20s will literally loaf all night above 23Hz, with clean bass, no compression worries. With 4 of them clustered, instant +12dB over one of them. You should be good. If for any reason you need more headroom, you can use more power and highpass for an extra 3-5dB, but then you are running them near the edge.....

I think it best to limit the content they get to 20V maximum below 25Hz, and above 25Hz to 30V maximum. 30V is 300W. You are far from Xmax, and within your amp capabilities. 30V at 17-20Hz will exceed Xmax, and may near Xlim, causing clanking and possible damage.

Remember, it is always best to run at least 3dB from limits, and 6dB from limits is even more preferable.

Good articles about cinema sound:

http://www.hps4000.com/pages/articles_page_.html

Good 1st read is the "If they knew what you were missing" article.

HPS4000 really doesn't output much below 35Hz, so take that into account when reading. The horn loaded subs are tuned to 40Hz, but the systems have enough headroom that sound would nonetheless be pretty impressive. When HPS4000 was conceived, films rarely dug below 40Hz. But the articles are worth reading.

Even is you have to run below reference in practice (remember, reference level is LOUD, no one speaks at 75dB in normal conversation, except maybe Drill Instructors), running with enough headroom to present cleanly is a must.

JSS
post #236 of 585
Thread Starter 
So do you think all of that translates to the XLS1000 amps being good for the F20s, or should I replace them with XLS1500 amps? (Not to drive them harder, but in order to have more headroom). Such a decision would cost $200 .... is that a good cost benefit?
post #237 of 585
Having more power than you need AKA headroom is the way to go IMO, but having the discipline to not push things too far will be required. OTOH regular clipping form an underpowered setup will COOK a woofer in short order, again discipline is key.

Having 3dB headroom is double the power in reserve...
post #238 of 585
Quote:
Originally Posted by dutchswan0311 View Post

So do you think all of that translates to the XLS1000 amps being good for the F20s, or should I replace them with XLS1500 amps? (Not to drive them harder, but in order to have more headroom). Such a decision would cost $200 .... is that a good cost benefit?

How loud do you want to get? Seriously - too loud can be a problem too.

Spending $200 to save you from clipping you'll likely never hear to gain headroom you'll likely never need seems to be a waste IMO.

More power can cook coils that much faster (assuming an unclipped signal and higher drive levels).

Honestly - if you have your system set to deliver near reference level SPLs, it will be too loud for most people. 4X F-20s will do the better part of 125 dB at a meter, groundplane, with 100 watts to each.

That's reference + 10 dB. Sure - that's at a meter, but it is groundplane, and my actual measurements back that number up.

Reference level is -10 dB from this, so it only takes 1/10th the power. That's 10 watts/cabinet, meaning you have a lot of headroom built in already.

You need reference for peaks, actual levels will likely be reference -10 dB as an average, maybe even lower.

So - that's about one watt to each cabinet. Your 350 watt/channel amps are plenty big. Though it is a little more complicated than this, you've got about 349 watts of headroom from where you'll likely be running things. The difference between 349 and 499 watts of headroom is not that significant, it is less than two dBs....and with the 350 watt amp, you're at 25 dB of headroom already.

Relax.

Save your money.

Enjoy the lower power bill.
post #239 of 585
Thread Starter 
Okay ... I will stick with what I have and focus on gain and EQ.
post #240 of 585
I have only read a few of the first post, but I really enjoyed the LilMike F-20 thread and seeing you going into somes detail with those has drawn me in.. subscribed. Overall, it sounds like a great project to undertake. Looking forward to getting caught up with the thread - thanks for sharing.
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