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Passive FPR 3D ghosting problems in Interlace and Checkerboard - Page 10

post #271 of 513
Quote:
Originally Posted by skyguy3d View Post

I was going to post that you hit the limits of the ghosting rejection of this monitor but then you said it does not have it on a different computer so I don't know what to say. Usually, a purple tint ghost effect is the max possible rejection coming from a combination of the FPR passive layer and the polarized lens from the glasses. Sometimes, using a different model of the glasses may help but most of the times it will not because you hit the limit of the tv so the only thing you can do is lower the separation or modify the convergence.

I've used two different versions of the LG glasses, and using my test in the first post, I found that they actually perform a little differently. One has actually better ghosting rejection than the other and most people would not see it without running the crosstalk test. Maybe you are using different glasses and getting different results?

Thx skyguy3D , but.. what do you mean I'm hit the limits of the ghosting rejection of this monitor?
post #272 of 513
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikemav View Post

^^^^ Agreed! I'm going to try out my first passive this weekend, the LG 47" 5600 model. I have already done the "rollermod" to my Nvidia setup and was hoping since this TV supported checkerboard that I could use the native Nvidia 3D Vision drivers like I could w/ my Samsung LED, but sounds like the LG still has issues w/ checkerboard ghosting. Still, I took back my Samsung LED since even w/ the rollermod and using full 1080p checkerboard, there was a lot of ghosting unless depth was 20% or under. So hoping I get good performance from the LG and the 3rd party drivers w/ line-interleave on the games I enjoy. If not, I may try the Samsung plasma instead, but I'm really hoping passive works out for me!

If you can get this working be sure to post. Keep in mind that there are 2 rollermod versions, be sure to use the 1080p one, not the other for a dual monitor set up. Also you'll probably have to modify the rollermod and change all references from 120Hz to 60Hz since the LGs can only accept a 60Hz signal.
post #273 of 513
Quote:
Originally Posted by Halfmillz View Post

Thx skyguy3D , but.. what do you mean I'm hit the limits of the ghosting rejection of this monitor?

I think he means that there is a certain point where increasing depth and convergence simply create additional artifacts
post #274 of 513
Version 03.10.59 i7 950 Nvidia GTX 480 W7 64bit I played Avatar in checkerboard, interlaced, sensio3D, side by side and RealD. They all had their pluses and minuses. In checkerboard I had to set my distance from the screen to 30ft(I sit at 4ft) and adjust the convergenge to max using the remote control. The results were great with the exception of anything colored orange would bug. My favorite was RealD it provided the best vibrance, but it would place a small line at the bottom of my screen that would alternate red, green and blue. I played with all settings at max/ultrahigh, the only thing unchecked was Force Widescreen FOV. For some formats I had to switch from LR to RL for the eye output. All formats had verying degrees of issues rendering the aiming reticle.
post #275 of 513
Could someone please list the latest version and state if it seems to be any kind of improvement. It would be nice if LG would list Versions with release notes and post them all. It would be nice to be able to roll back to an earlier version if after using a newer one the user decided the older one worked better for his/her application whether it be movies, file playback, broadcast tv or gaming. BTW what is up with the depth adjustment being locked out, that makes no sense.
post #276 of 513
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Halfmillz View Post

Thx skyguy3D , but.. what do you mean I'm hit the limits of the ghosting rejection of this monitor?

It's supposed to be the point where the left lens cannot block all the information from the right lens and vice versa.

The problem is there are some users using interleave and checkerboard where there is a calibration problem and even using small amounts of separation causes color ghosting. This can be fixed because the limit I was talking about has never been exceeded based. Using the same values for comparison to Side by Side mode which is already corrected for high amounts of ghosting also shows this limit is much higher.

You've got a couple options, use VGA to check if interleave has less ghosting.
Use Side by Side mode on HDMI which is supposed to have this ghosting minimized.

If these don't help, than my assumption was correct.
post #277 of 513
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3DNewb View Post

Could someone please list the latest version and state if it seems to be any kind of improvement. It would be nice if LG would list Versions with release notes and post them all. It would be nice to be able to roll back to an earlier version if after using a newer one the user decided the older one worked better for his/her application whether it be movies, file playback, broadcast tv or gaming. BTW what is up with the depth adjustment being locked out, that makes no sense.

If you are talking about Avatar, then it's because you have to use the Avatar separation slider and not 3d vision. If I remember correctly, they base it on size of tv and distance because the developers want to have complete control of the 3d camera at all times to adjust it on the fly.
post #278 of 513
Thread Starter 
Ok, this is my up to date firmware changes that I noted for 4.00.18

Interleave- 3% greyscale ghosting
Side by Side and Frame-packing- No ghosting
Checkerboard- This is where they fixed all of the greyscale ghosting completely(good), now there is only color ghosting which I can use 25 Color to remove most of the ghosting. Not good for color reproduction, but better than running it at black and white.

Then there is Subverse setting and he was using a version higher than me and for some reason he posted that IZ3D checkerboard had no ghosting which is surprising indeed.
post #279 of 513
Hmm, just found out that the only way to access the service menu is via a special service remote, kinda lame. Anyhow if you'd like to take a peak at the innards and schematics have a look at the LG training manual here http://www.scribd.com/doc/59328401/L...raining-Manual
post #280 of 513
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3DNewb View Post
If you can get this working be sure to post. Keep in mind that there are 2 rollermod versions, be sure to use the 1080p one, not the other for a dual monitor set up. Also you'll probably have to modify the rollermod and change all references from 120Hz to 60Hz since the LGs can only accept a 60Hz signal.
Okay, got this working last night. No modifications to the inf needed, I just connected the LG in place of the Samsung. When I woke the PC it still showed "generic DLP monitor" but had sensed the new EDID since my 3D Vision option was now listed as the dredded 3DTV Play instead. But I simply did "the mod" again by going to device manager, updating my display driver to the roller mod .inf (Samsung EDID Override) and rebooted.

It now showed Generic DLP Monitor again but w/ 3D Vision, just like w/ the Samsung. Booted a full screen 1080p game and it worked in checkerboard @ 1080p. Of course I hear from this thread the LG has some color ghosting problems in checkerboard but I'm just getting used to this display, and I must say while I saw ghosting (especially as I increased 3D Vision depth), it was better in checkerboard than the Samsung LED was. Much better.

Also much better than Gran Turismo in 720p on the PS3, so worth continued experiments. I also need to build (or buy) the simple circuit to suppress the red on-screen warning @ the bottom from Nvidia showing no sync cable is connected. I will also try IZ3D drivers w/ interleave to see how that works on the games I typically play when I get a chance.
post #281 of 513
Quote:
Originally Posted by skyguy3d View Post
It's supposed to be the point where the left lens cannot block all the information from the right lens and vice versa.

The problem is there are some users using interleave and checkerboard where there is a calibration problem and even using small amounts of separation causes color ghosting. This can be fixed because the limit I was talking about has never been exceeded based. Using the same values for comparison to Side by Side mode which is already corrected for high amounts of ghosting also shows this limit is much higher.

You've got a couple options, use VGA to check if interleave has less ghosting.
Use Side by Side mode on HDMI which is supposed to have this ghosting minimized.

If these don't help, than my assumption was correct.
It's not work, I try the both and the ghosting is the same value I use HDMI 1.4 with ATI HD4850
post #282 of 513
Can you provide a link for the rollermod, I could only find the low resolution one.
post #283 of 513
Well i sold the ld950, would of loved a upgrade to newer bigger lg's but with the checkerboard issue it puts me off.

Dno what todo now, luckily i never lose too much on my tv upgrades as peeps love the free films thats included.
Need something, was looking at LG 50PZ550T 50" Full HD Plasma 3D TV, but it's plasma,Grrrrrr, suppose if i treat it right it might not be destroyed by my gaming and pc desktop, it's only £650 with 2 2011 active glasses and i'd gain 3 inchs and 1080p 3dvision checkerboard.
I think i might do it as i've never had a plasma before and then upgrade at xmas again if i'm not happy, sure at xmas there'll be loads of buyers who want 138 films lol

I think the biggest problem will be i'll be taking a step back in crosstalk/ghosting, i never ever see it in a film with the passive, we shall see as the alternitive is a 37inch 3d lcd and that would have xtalk too, , do'nt think i could go smaller.

EDIT

Just tested the LG 50PZ550T 50" Full HD Plasma 3D TV at local shop and it's 3d has loads more depth than my passive!
they was playing some crappy stereoscopic dvd so the quality was'nt all that good but some of the footage had high depth scenes and i could'nt see any crosstalk so i'm 100% on this tv like flies on crap.
post #284 of 513
Going to start with a big unhappy face then i think i might laugh untill i cry

So i got the Lg plasma with active glasses and guess what, i have colour ghosting with checkerboard, same old crap but active this time and not passive!

Just set 3dvision up, color ghosting, same goes for tridef and iz3d, checkerboard is really bad on these tv's i know it worked on 2 samsungs!
I feel like i've been robbed as i sold the ld950 to fund this set just for checkerboard and 3dvision as i hated being stuck with 3dtvplay at 720p.

What a crazy problem this is!

Tried original edid, modified edid, all sorts, no luck!

Edit

This tv sucks, i've took a step back in crosstalk as no i can see it again in films and games, dno what the crack was at currys as i could'nt see any unless they was playing a crappy 3d dvd with tweaked footage that shows no ghosting as i 100% have lots of xtalk, maybe thay had had had the tv in 3d mode for 5 hours before i got there, the glasses was cold though.
I'm allso seeing a slight ghost image in 2d , if i have a window open in windows and move it over to the right hand side i can see a very faint image of the window to my left, i get this over hdmi and vga.
Over hdmi text ect is very sharp, changed all settings on tv, named inputs ect and i can get the sharpness down somewhat but its still there.
Going to take my glasses and a usb to the shop tomoz, if the ghost image shows on my mrs lappy tonight i'll take that too.
What a mission it's all become.
post #285 of 513
I know the passives are in "Demo" mode when on display at the store, this changes the calbration to adjust for the store lighting and oversaturating colors for a more wow effect for the consumer. Also the viewing distance is decreased from say 10-15ft to 3-5ft in Demo mode.
post #286 of 513
I haven't bought the new Deaus Ex yet, finishing up a few games first. But I ran across a post about a 3D fix for Nvidia users. http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=209622 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43rbVwhm6e8 It seems that it is still a work in progress with a few issues, but is functional.
post #287 of 513
Lol, i've got peeps blaming my setup on other forums for the 3d ghosting, this is a forum that has this tv as a thread, ain't they gonna be suprised when they look at the 3d test links i showed them, being a budget model i got i take it none of the guys know any better, warning to you guys, passive is by far batter than active, never ever go back as i have, you will regret it till you die!

I know you guys like a gossip so why not follow the fun http://www.avforums.com/forums/3d-tv...-50pz550t.html , i'll not be told it's my setup by people unlucky enough to not of had a lg passive, god bless there little crosstalk stained socks.

This set does handle 3d better than a 2010 c750 lcd.
post #288 of 513
If I do not keep this LG passive, it would be do to Nvidia's lack of proper support for it. I find it ludicrous that I can play Avatar the game, at 1080P 60 with everything on ultrahigh, including shadows plus the depth set to 100% with Nvidia stereoscopic 3D disabled. Just using the game engine and the LG passive to render the 3D. Plus I played in the following formats; RealD, Sensio, Checkerboard, Side by Side, and Line Interlaced. When I did enable 3D via Nvidia 3DTV Play my results were less than stellar, wheter it was at 720P 60 or 1080P 24. Though I really hate going down in size, I'll probably go for the Acer HN274H will will accept a 120Hz signal in both 2D and 3D. Though there are reports of ghosting, you'll find just as many posts stating zero ghosting other than a little here or there due more to the game than the monitor. The thing is that the 120Hz 2D gameplay is said to be fast and smooth and fantastic for FPS games. Also it does have some HDMI 1.4 compatibility
post #289 of 513
If only every game would use the 3D solution of game engine rendering like Avatar, I'd be in state of passive tv bliss. Multiple formats, including dual head make it the leader/bench mark for 3D games to aspire to imho. I say this in regards to 3D, otherwise the gameplay was somewhat ok. But, the ending was horribly anti-climatic.
post #290 of 513
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3DNewb View Post

If I do not keep this LG passive, it would be do to Nvidia's lack of proper support for it. I find it ludicrous that I can play Avatar the game, at 1080P 60 with everything on ultrahigh, including shadows plus the depth set to 100% with Nvidia stereoscopic 3D disabled. Just using the game engine and the LG passive to render the 3D. Plus I played in the following formats; RealD, Sensio, Checkerboard, Side by Side, and Line Interlaced. When I did enable 3D via Nvidia 3DTV Play my results were less than stellar, wheter it was at 720P 60 or 1080P 24. Though I really hate going down in size, I'll probably go for the Acer HN274H will will accept a 120Hz signal in both 2D and 3D. Though there are reports of ghosting, you'll find just as many posts stating zero ghosting other than a little here or there due more to the game than the monitor. The thing is that the 120Hz 2D gameplay is said to be fast and smooth and fantastic for FPS games. Also it does have some HDMI 1.4 compatibility

3dnewb,

What tv do you have now? The only way Nvidia users get 3d vision done the right way for passive users is to push for Interleaved support. Once you go to native resolution gaming, it's hard to match it for large screen tvs. The best shutter's can do for large screen is frame sequential for native pixel output but then large screen tvs don't have any inputs for 120 Hz. I was trying to see when HDMI would plan for new chips but no recent convention has mentioned any support for 60 Hz for Shutter glasses. Without an announcement, I don't see much progress that could be paved by shutter glasses gaming at native res at 60 Hz for tvs. It seems like gaming still needs some headway for more attention.

If I was not so much for quality then Side by Side would suffice for gaming but using the full pixels is necessary to match smaller 3d monitors.

So I just watched Thor, it's a post 3d converted movie but man watching this with 3d and the snow and rain flying all around is great. Not to mention I'm using cerwin vega 15" woofer loudspeakers for my fronts and a 200 watt cerwin vega for my center in a 7.1 configuration. This movies is good to show off the complete home theater experience.

butmuncher,

I hope LG sees what is wrong with checkerboard. Which one is better for checkerboard from the plasma to the lcd? I'm going to be checking each time a firmware comes out to see if they made any progress.
post #291 of 513
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Halfmillz View Post

It's not work, I try the both and the ghosting is the same value I use HDMI 1.4 with ATI HD4850

Go press the button on the monitor to reset the monitor default settings. See if that works.
post #292 of 513
Skyguy3d,
Checkerboard is exactly the same as the lcd was, same issue, gob smaking as tyhats anther tv ive brought thats no good!

I now know one thing that i'm pretty sure of.
Active does have better 3d depth an passive possibly.

I went from a c750 active to the ld950 passive and straight away i noticed loss of depth, i put this down to the way passive 3d works, better 3d image but loses abit of depth in the proccess, now i have gone back to active i can see that i have more depth again, allso had the 2 sets b2b for testing and there is more depth on the active, i could'nt test this befoe as i'd sold the c750 to get the ld950 but this time i had both the active plasma and passive lcd together.
post #293 of 513
I have the 47LW5600, the viewing angle is great compared to the LG D2342P passive monitor that I tried. So in that regards, I'm loving the TV. I do wish that the info button would list the 3D input signal/format as well. As far as mentionioning that the LG depth adjustment was locked out, I wasn't using Nvidia and had the in game depth adjustment for Avatar maxed out. Which was fine for all the formats I tried except for one, so I was a lil disappointed I couldn't increase that one format that was lacking depth. I can't remember which one atm.
post #294 of 513
Just seen something that slipped my mind.
iz3d has a ati only checkerboard option, has anybody tried this, i can't as i have a nvidia card.
post #295 of 513
Thread Starter 
3dNewb,

I've never used the depth slider on the tv ever. Sometimes I make a negative adjustment on the viewpoint and I only use that for 2d/3d conversions.

Butmuncher,

About the ATI checkerboard, it works exactly the same, except it is does not have any trial attached to it so it works forever if you have an ati card. Its part of the AMD/IZ3D cross promotion they have for new 3d users.
post #296 of 513
I decided to watch Legend of the Guardians the other night, which is a 1920x1080 half-sbs video. So I loaded it up and switched the TV into sbs 3d mode as I thought this would be the best viewing quality without the (very minor) ghosting I see using row interleaved output with Stereoscopic Player. After watching for a couple of minutes, I noticed that the eyes of the owls were noticeably blocky as if the video was a poorly scaled lower-resolution copy.

I then switched to have Stereoscopic Player output row interleaved and the blockiness was completely gone, though I did have to put up with the ghosting - to be fair, although the ghosting is perceptible it's very difficult to see and is better described as being "felt" rather than seen if that makes any sense to you.

I'm a bit perplexed as to what the TV was doing to the half-sbs image to make it look so bad when Stereoscopic Player should have been doing pretty much the same thing and yet displayed it so well. Anyway that's my experience, and I'm glad I paid for Stereoscopic Player even though it seems a bit steep at 40 euro.

Skyguy;
I'm wondering if actives could handle 1080p60 frame-packed with a firmware update..? I don't know if the current limitation of 1080p24 frame-packed is due to the TV hardware or because the firmware is only written to support the current HDMI standard..?
post #297 of 513
Remember this "Lg passive interlaced and checkerboard fixed, mostly!", hehe it was your post on Nvidia's forumns, seems they locked and closed it. IMO Nvidia is only alienating customers by not offering better solutions to people wanting to game on 3D TVs. I've always bought Nvidia since the 6000 series but for my next upgrade I'll being jumping over the fence to play in the grass on the other side. I do not recall anything offensive in your thread, someone must of hijacked it, dunno. Seems silly to close it vs editing it. http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?s...&#entry1292425
post #298 of 513
Have a look at an old Nvidia PDF, you'll see the support for multiple formats and and glasses as well on page 15 of the PDF/ page 11 of the document. http://www.feldoncentral.com/Sachs/d...User_Guide.pdf (form July 2005)
post #299 of 513
Maybe there is hope for 3DTV Play from Nvidia, I just came across a post from Andrew Fear http://blogs.nvidia.com/author/andrew-fear/ saying that they are currently working on the 3D modes, read post #47 http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?s...&#entry1281038
post #300 of 513
Thread Starter 
3dNewb,

About Avatar game, I just remembered that you kept mentioning that the depth was not good enough. Actually for the screen size, you should input 22" instead of 55" because it will increase the 3d popout and depth dramatically. What ends up happening is that the high depth settings on the small screen becomes magnified based on screen size just like going to watch an imax 3d is better than watching 3d on a 22" 3d monitor. Using 55" screen size will minimize the depth impact and lower your 3d settings.

Zaphodalive,

Have you tried Over/Under for that movie and see if removes the blockiness. If you like popping out effects, try Final Destination 3D. That has some effects that literally get thrown at you. HDMI has new chips that support the higher bandwidth but nobody is going to give something away for free without marketing the performance of the tech itself. I have not heard any announcement from Samsung, Panasonic.

Butmuncher,

Take into account this has a lot more to do with sensation and perception of the brain.

From my past experiences using passive glasses that are linear, I can maybe explain part of the reason why there is less depth. Remember that LG, Vizio, Toshiba uses Real D which is circular polarization just for reference. With the linear polarization, there were times when having a higher color disparity, which is when one eye sees some color ghosting from the other eyes actually increased the 3d effect for smaller depth values because the retinal disparity helped create two independent images not based on viewpoint only but also based on color.

Now later IZ3D updated their glasses model to remove the retinal disparity in their glasses by moving to a elliptical polarization and this helped completely remove any color ghosting. The side effects from this were that low depth images did not have the same 3d effect as a high depth image and therefore you would need to increase the 3d to get the same depth.

Now moving back to why LG passive possibly has less depth compared to active glasses. The only reason I see this is because when you have more color ghosting, then at lower depth values, you will get more 3d effect. On the other hand, with LG passive, there is no color ghosting at all, so because there is no color retinal disparity, then on low depth 3d the effect is diminished so thereby you would have to increase the depth higher to compensate or have a larger screen whichever. Other possible ways to increase the effect are to sit further from the tv.

Also I want to add, that I am getting better popout from this tv than from my other tech because I can increase the values to really high numbers. I think with depth though I would need to have both active and passive side by side because from my eyes, it is easier to see high amounts of popout than it is to see depth. This is one of those areas where each person sees a little different from another because of the way the brain works. You have the advantage because you have each side by side to compare.
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