or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › LCD Flat Panel Displays › Passive FPR 3D ghosting problems in Interlace and Checkerboard
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Passive FPR 3D ghosting problems in Interlace and Checkerboard - Page 15

post #421 of 513
Thread Starter 
Just to update, I ran the new firmware and I see no improvements all all.
post #422 of 513
Quote:
Originally Posted by skyguy3d View Post

Just to update, I ran the new firmware and I see no improvements all all.

Gutted for you mate.
After a few weeks of the tosh i wonder why the hell i kept getting lg's hoping i'd get a working model.
Everything i play now is in interleaved and zero lag ( tosh has far less lag than lg ) what a difference it has made to my life, i no longer am thinking about my crappy lg faults day in day out, it really did bug me daily!

Tobe honest and it sounds right, if lg released there latest flagship with the colourbugs then what hope do you have of ever getting a fix, 9 month i think it was passed for me and 3 different models and i never seen the light of day!

Return them as faulty and and get something that works.
post #423 of 513
I'm curious as to how Nvidia supports the Toshiba via 3DTV Play, is it the usual 1920x1080P@25 and 1280x720P@60? The new Acer passive monitors are purchasing Nvidia support up front and are getting better support than the LG TVs, unsure about the Toshibas. Also how many different formats are supported on the Toshiba, if there is 1 thing that I absolutely loved about the LG, it was the multiple formats supported.
post #424 of 513
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3DNewb View Post

I'm curious as to how Nvidia supports the Toshiba via 3DTV Play, is it the usual 1920x1080P@25 and 1280x720P@60? The new Acer passive monitors are purchasing Nvidia support up front and are getting better support than the LG TVs, unsure about the Toshibas. Also how many different formats are supported on the Toshiba, if there is 1 thing that I absolutely loved about the LG, it was the multiple formats supported.

Yes, I remember reading a week or two ago about the new Acer passive LCDs (smaller like 24" IIRC) working w/ Nvidia up front to develop true 3D Vision support. If this will work @ 1080/60 resolution as line interlaced passive 3D, then I have a glimmer of hope this may be possible using Nvidia drivers and the LG. Would probably need to do a hack of the .inf display driver to fool it into thinking it's the supported Acer model. I did this with my Optoma GT700 3D projector (to enable 3D Vision support needed to use the Acer projector .inf instead.)
post #425 of 513
post #426 of 513
Hello again, I was going back to the first posts of this thread but's rather inconclusive.

So, does the EDID .inf file fix work in the end, for interleaved mode? And is it possible to create an .inf for another TV, saying 32LW4500?
post #427 of 513
I read this thread with interest since I just bought 47LW5300 and therefore may try 3D gaming in the future, but now I'm extremely confused and even doubt my understanding of passive 3D. So here is my confusion and please help me out here:
Passive 3d works by polarizing LCD screen with opposite polarization strips for each scan line. Now playing games you would want interlaced 3D to limit video processing and lower input lag, so far so good? So if computer video card sends interlaced screen and I'm assuming here:1st scan line left eye, 2nd scan line right eye, third scan line left eye etc. etc. and assuming the frame is properly assembled for display on passive screen, then TV should display 3D video without any processing and without even turning 3D on? The interlaced frame should be good to go to the display without any adjustments? (again all the adjustments should be done on the computer). If so why would ghosting and other problems be LG issue, not video driver's?
What am I missing here?
Is the interlaced 3D screen not in LG passive 3D format and need to be redone and if so how come? (there is only one way to interlace video and it should be easy switch left eye to right eye if wrong)
Or maybe there needs to be some correction done to fix some specific issues with LG screens, but again I can't imagine what, every odd scan line is left eye, every even scan line right eye and as long as you have the right offset between half frames (calculated by computer) it should work, shouldn't it?
Also, are there similar issues with AMD, since I'm not huge Nvidia fan, but that's another story.
post #428 of 513
Quote:
Originally Posted by sodi View Post

Hello again, I was going back to the first posts of this thread but's rather inconclusive.

So, does the EDID .inf file fix work in the end, for interleaved mode? And is it possible to create an .inf for another TV, saying 32LW4500?

I have confirmed the following on uk models.

Nvidia has a colourbug with lg and amd has a clear ghosting with lg, both cards read the edids wrongly still.
Nothing wrong with nvidia cards though as the same cards that did'nt work correctly with lg do with this tosh and the edid is read correctly allso .
post #429 of 513
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikemav View Post

Yes, I remember reading a week or two ago about the new Acer passive LCDs (smaller like 24" IIRC) working w/ Nvidia up front to develop true 3D Vision support. If this will work @ 1080/60 resolution as line interlaced passive 3D, then I have a glimmer of hope this may be possible using Nvidia drivers and the LG. Would probably need to do a hack of the .inf display driver to fool it into thinking it's the supported Acer model. I did this with my Optoma GT700 3D projector (to enable 3D Vision support needed to use the Acer projector .inf instead.)

The problem you have is to get rid of any type of ghosting with lg you need to use isf expaert and this creates lots of lag so yes you can use your lg for interleaved but i believe you need to change the pc label .
post #430 of 513
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3DNewb View Post

I'm curious as to how Nvidia supports the Toshiba via 3DTV Play, is it the usual 1920x1080P@25 and 1280x720P@60? The new Acer passive monitors are purchasing Nvidia support up front and are getting better support than the LG TVs, unsure about the Toshibas. Also how many different formats are supported on the Toshiba, if there is 1 thing that I absolutely loved about the LG, it was the multiple formats supported.

@Butmuncher, are you are still using an Nvidia GPU and Nvidia to game? Is the Toshiba receiving the same support that the new Acer passive monitors are going to receive?
post #431 of 513
Thread Starter 
Well, if the news about Nvidia adding support for interleave displays for certified displays are coming up, now we know that to get the support for more passive screens is have each manufacturer send their tv/monitor for Nvidia to go through their certification process. Last I read, no money is exchanged, the testing and usage has to go through Nvidia channels and that gets the support that the passive 3d gamers want.

The positive for this means knowing the screen will have the necessary support when games are released through the 3d vision program and have the support of 1080p 60 fps line interleaved.

Now that means I need to get AMD on the ball rolling with their HD3D program and get access to crossfire and adding new calls for internal passive 3d support.

That's where the EDID database secondary uses I created can be applied.

I've been sending all the EDID's that I have gathered to the AMD side over the past months FYI.

If they take action, this is great news for 3d video card interchangeability and diversity.
post #432 of 513
I've seen it specifically stated that manufacturers do not have pay for support with 3DTV Play.

But it's my understanding that manufacturers pay for 3D Vision certification via a per unit licensing fee. Like they do for SLI certification on motherboards.
Can you link where you've read otherwise?
post #433 of 513
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3DNewb View Post

@Butmuncher, are you are still using an Nvidia GPU and Nvidia to game? Is the Toshiba receiving the same support that the new Acer passive monitors are going to receive?

Yes still on nvidia, sli gtx 570's now
I'd wanted to upgrade my gfx for months but having a lg that did'nt play checkerboard or interleaved correctly stopped me from upgrading.
The tosh only has support for 3dtvplay, the 3dvision interleaved support is done via a edid overide so there is no support lol.
post #434 of 513
Thread Starter 
I tried looking for links, maybe I read it wrong I don't know. About per licensing volume fees, what I wonder is if the display manufacturers have contractual obligations for exclusive non-competitive arrangement clause to be used with a single 3d driver only. For instance, if they sign up for Tridef, can the display also have Nvidia certification also and vice versa.

Hopefully that's not the case and the support can readily support multiple 3d devices as the way 3DTV play, IZ3D, and Tridef operate.
post #435 of 513
I do not think there is an exclusive clause, the Zalman is officially supported by both, although discretely by Nvidia. Also reading a post on the Nvidia forumns about the Samsung S27A950D, they seemed disappointed and suprised/annoyed by it being HD3D certified.

But they do seem to be trying to keep the market somewhat segregated. Such as the Acer HS244HQ 24 inch active monitor has no Nvidia support and uses the manufacturers glasses. But it is HD3D supported. Whereas the Acer active monitors bundled with a built in Nvidia emitter and glasses, are supported by Nvidia.

I wonder by exclusion of the S27A950D and HS244HQ, Nvidia is breaking the US Antitrust Law.
post #436 of 513
Thread Starter 
AMD added HD3D multi-gpu support and Frame sequential mode into their 12.1 preview drivers this past week

http://3dvision-blog.com/amds-cataly...port/#comments
post #437 of 513
I think I found the source of the ghosting bug. I was thinking LG sets might have this problem as compared to other sets because of how LG displays both images to each eye at 120th of a second as describe here... http://www.hometheater.com/content/p...olution-update

I figured the 120th of a second option had to just be tricked in being turned on so I loaded stereoscopic player with a movie in 3d interleaved and put on the converter of 2d>3d and the ghosting disappeared. I then turned down the "3d depth" all the way in the 3d options and low and behold I got interlaced 3d with no ghosting with the computer doing all the work. I'm not sure how much the monitor is processing doing this though so I'm still not sure about input lag.

Added: Fiddlestix!!! More input lag this way at least when I tried it. Wonder if we can reduce it.
post #438 of 513
Was just playing a game with a mate and suddenly i had the colourbug in interleaved with the TOSHIBA Regza 42VL863B

This is the closest i have seen to lg's colourbug, previously i thought it may be scaling due to jpeg images ect looking like the colourbug but if a tosh's proccessing causes the bug and turning off said proccess fixes the bug then maybe lg have to just turn of a image proccess or something that is working in the background.

But soon found the problem which comes as quite a suprise as it is another way to duplicate the colourbug.
Playing a interleaved 3d game with true motion on creates the same colourbug that lg has, i'm 100% sure of this as i lived with the colourbug for 8 months so i think i know what looks like what
As you can see by the image, 100% the same colourbug as lg but on a tosh! Looks more like the checkerboard colourbug as it's worse than what the interleaved was on the lg.
taken through the right lense of the glasses, notice the yellow ghosting again



I do'nt know what this means, i have a hunch though.

Interleaved 3d can't work correctly with motion plus type settings as it creates massive artifacts on moving images so i never ever use it.
If the tosh shows the colourbug with the motion proccessing on and the lg shows it with it while it's on or off then maybe the lg is still doing some proccessing to the image creating the colourbug.
if so and it's as easy as turning a setting off on a tosh then can lg not just turn off what ever extra proccessing they have while in pc mode ect?


it's another theory to add to the pool, that's for sure.
post #439 of 513
What differently is the LG doing when it is in 2d>3d mode with the 3d options all the way down? Is it just the "temporal compression" as explained in the linked article that I have listed above? If that is all then it is the need to have "termporal compression" on while using an LG in 3d that is the cause of the ghosting. Anyone else know why else the ghosting could disappear in 2d>3d mode in line interleaved?
post #440 of 513
Do the Toshiba models do checkerboard as well as interleave? I have a 3D Vision setup and the warning workaround cable to enable checkerboard 1080p, but it never worked well on the LG as you know. (About the only think this set doesn't excel in.) I was looking at a Toshiba passive model 47TL1515U, anyone know if this does interleave (and ideally checkerboard too) well?

Is this the line they also make 40" models in? Might be able to use a 40" in my setup instead of 47" if there is a good gaming passive 3D 40" model available? I'm not that familiar with the current Toshiba offerings, only learned they did passive in this thread actually (as opposed to the advertising blitz in the US that LG is in the midst of.)

Edit- I see this same model comes in a 42" also. Interesting.
post #441 of 513
That Zalman edid has the image left right reversed on my LG with 3d Vision. Anyway to switch this other than upside down glasses? There is Acer HR274h drivers on the Acer website which is a new passive 3d being supported by 3d vision. I wonder if it's got the left right in the other direction? I assume rewriting those things are very complicated.
BTW: It seems with Tridef line interlaced (reversed) with 2d>3d enabled has a lot less lag than side by side.
post #442 of 513
Quote:
Originally Posted by quisp65 View Post

That Zalman edid has the image left right reversed on my LG with 3d Vision. Anyway to switch this other than upside down glasses? There is Acer HR274h drivers on the Acer website which is a new passive 3d being supported by 3d vision. I wonder if it's got the left right in the other direction? I assume rewriting those things are very complicated.
BTW: It seems with Tridef line interlaced (reversed) with 2d>3d enabled has a lot less lag than side by side.

Off to look at them drivers now.

The 2d-3d trick to have interleaved working sounds a crazy work around especially considering you can't turn the depth off so you wil have added 3d ontop of 3d lol.
post #443 of 513
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikemav View Post

Do the Toshiba models do checkerboard as well as interleave? I have a 3D Vision setup and the warning workaround cable to enable checkerboard 1080p, but it never worked well on the LG as you know. (About the only think this set doesn't excel in.) I was looking at a Toshiba passive model 47TL1515U, anyone know if this does interleave (and ideally checkerboard too) well?

Is this the line they also make 40" models in? Might be able to use a 40" in my setup instead of 47" if there is a good gaming passive 3D 40" model available? I'm not that familiar with the current Toshiba offerings, only learned they did passive in this thread actually (as opposed to the advertising blitz in the US that LG is in the midst of.)

Edit- I see this same model comes in a 42" also. Interesting.

Hi,
No the tosh passive i have does'nt do checkerboard but i can tell you something............

Sell your 3dvision kit and make some money and then use the free edid overides to use 3dvision with interleaved 3d instead, there is no red warning message with 3dvision and the interleaved edid mods and there is no 3dvision kit required either!

If it was'nt for lg and their colourbugs this work around for 3dvision interleaved with nothing but a single edid overide might not of been found yet, it was only found in the first place by me because i was testing anything and everything to get rid of lg's colourbugs.
In a way i'm glad lg has colour issues as it opened up a can of worms, 3dvision interleaved 3d is awsome, obviously not so if you own a lg 3dtv .
The worst thing was late that night when i stumbled upon the mod i had a crappy lg that did'nt work correctly, how sad is that, you break something open but it's no good to you lol, thanks lg, but now i can use it and with the added zero lag the tosh has 3d zero lag interleaved gaming seriously flys like a rocket to the stars, whooosh!
The glasses i have took the lenses out and super glued them to the opposite sides, works much better than cutting the lenses down or wearing them upside down.
post #444 of 513
Quote:
Originally Posted by Butmuncher View Post

Off to look at them drivers now.

The 2d-3d trick to have interleaved working sounds a crazy work around especially considering you can't turn the depth off so you wil have added 3d ontop of 3d lol.

Thanks for looking at those drivers.

I watched normal television with 2d>3d on & the "3d depth" turned all the way to 0 in the 3d options, and you can not see any depth or distortion at all to the screen except that it goes into its interlaced mode that LG stated it does in 3d. Text doesn't look as clear. I suspect that it puts the TV in all of it's configurations that it does for 3d except the 2d>3d processor slide bar is turned all the way to off, so the 3d chip is not processing the image. Who knows though the chip could be processing the screen to a small degree, but it certainly doesn't look like it though. The problem though is I believe it still adds about 60-75ms to lag as compared to with it off. Sort of defeats the purpose of using interleaved but it does gives me 3d vision in 1080p in 60 hz with what seems like less lag than 3dTVs page flipping or whatever its called. I'm going to try to test the latency more today and see if I'm not just experiencing a bit of tester bias.

Added later: I don't know if you still have an LG but you remember that slider bar called "3d depth" that was always greyed out? In 2d>3d it always works and you can slide it all the way down to 0. Is it a true zero I really don't know but it looks like it. As far as I'm concerned though the LG doesn't have native interleaved but does have interleave that you can enable in the menu that adds a bit more to latency.
post #445 of 513
Did a latency test of the LG 65LW6500 using a website.

Monitors
LG 65 inch 65LW6500 (1080p default res)
Samsung 24 inch computer monitor T240 (1920x1200 default res)(set at 1920x1024) (had a 50ms lag at worst with a CRT on another site)
The Samsung set off it's default res could of effected the test. They were cloned with the LG being the primary and the Samsung being cloned off the LG. Most of the test the LG was on a DVI>VGA and the Samsung was HDMI>HDMI. To test Frame Sequential I had to put the LG to DVI>HDMI and ran a few tests in HDMI to see if there was any improvement over VGA. All inputs were labeled as "PC" with non-3d being in Game mode in the picture settings and all 3d modes being in Standard with Tru Motion off and LED local dimming off.

I doubt will post this test to the "Lag War" topic because I'm not sure I did it all correctly. Took at least 5 pictures in each mode and for the most part the numbers matched but had a few inconsistencies. When the LG was DVI>VGA it had the Zalman spoofed edid and when the LG was DVI>HDMI it had the correct default PNP edid.

Results: (Picked the ones that I thought was the closest to the accurate representation)
HDMI vs VGA:
Non 3d = 74.05ms - 84.05ms
2d>3d (3d depth off) = 154.09ms
Top/Bottom & SBS =156.09 (tried both and they were roughly equal)

HDMI vs HDMI:
Non 3d = 73.05ms - 112.06ms 3 out of the 5 pic 20-30ms higher than VGA)
Frame Packing/Frame Sequential = 143.10ms - 169.1ms with 155.50ms about mid (since was page flipping numbers were harder to read)
2d>3d (3d depth on) got 4 pics lower at 130.08 and 1 about equal with 3d depth off (hmm... lower with 3d depth maxed instead of set to 0)

Conclusion:
If your into gaming, get a 3d passive Toshiba :-( Lag wars topic says 16ms is one frame. So putting the LW6500 in any 3d mode added about 70ms or 4-5 more frames. Non 3d game mode with PC input was about was 130ms (9 frames) if you say the Samsung is at 50ms. The article stated the Samsung was 50ms at it's worse though.
So maybe:
2d mode gaming <130ms
3d mode gaming <200ms


Few example shots:
LL
LL
LL
post #446 of 513
I am looking at the LG 65 inch 65LW6500 but I will use it quite a bit for gaming. If I don't plan to use the 3D when gaming, will I still experience enough lag to effect FPS games, specifically COD?
post #447 of 513
It's not a great gaming monitor. I believe my stats shows it's on the bottom end for games.
post #448 of 513
Quote:
Originally Posted by quisp65 View Post

It's not a great gaming monitor. I believe my stats shows it's on the bottom end for games.

Hmm, that's a bummer. Is there a list anywhere showing the top end for gaming?

Also, I'm thinking about upgrading from my Samsung 56" DLP (HLP5685). How would I know what the lag is on that one and is it a case where any of the newer HDTV's would be better in terms of lag than the older HDTV's?
post #449 of 513
I noticed another way to get rid of the ghosting in interleaved. I stood on top of my chair and put myself at a higher viewing angle to the TV and I could position myself where the ghosting disappeared in interleaved and everything looked like good 3d.

This gets me back to thinking about LG's method of doing 3d. The monitor in 3d is always cycling even and odd lines of information at 120th of a second so during 1/60th of a second both lines have been displayed to both eyes. What if LG found out with this method their are advantages to have the FPR lines out of sync when compared with the passive sets that don't do this cycling? Maybe it hides FPR lines, maybe it hides the interlace effect a bit, maybe something else...since it is cycling at 120th of a second the eyes don't catch it and the FPR lines not lining up don't matter.

So if you were not in 3d mode the TV screen would be operating at 60hz or at least not cycling lines back and forth because there is no reason to, and the lines wouldn't line up with the FPR causing ghosting while sending a interleaved 3d image to it. Positioning yourself at a different angle would achieve the effect of lining the FPR lines up with the pixels.

Just a theory.
post #450 of 513
was wondering how the philips pfl7606k/02 would be doing with interleaved 3d pc gaming and this said colour bug, since he also has a lg panel. just asking myself if it would be on par with the toshiba, sadly there isnt a single comment on this one on the net when it comes to that - besides there are a ton of reviews about the tv itself. at least when it comes to input lag the philips seems to be on par with the tosh.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: LCD Flat Panel Displays
AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › LCD Flat Panel Displays › Passive FPR 3D ghosting problems in Interlace and Checkerboard