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Passive FPR 3D ghosting problems in Interlace and Checkerboard - Page 3

post #61 of 513
Thread Starter 
Well, the test parameters are there so if it works good than that would be great. Something happened during the latest firmware and I don't need to use ISF Expert Mode to lower ghosting in Interleaved mode anymore. It was the same color ghosting that I am seeing in checkerboard now so it is hopeful there is a fix. Ha, the posters name is Hopeful too.
post #62 of 513
Quote:
Originally Posted by skyguy3d View Post

Well, the test parameters are there so if it works good than that would be great. Something happened during the latest firmware and I don't need to use ISF Expert Mode to lower ghosting in Interleaved mode anymore. It was the same color ghosting that I am seeing in checkerboard now so it is hopeful there is a fix. Ha, the posters name is Hopeful too.

Hi,
So are you saying that you have working interleaved over hdmi without a modified edid now?
post #63 of 513
Thread Starter 
Well, I can't say completely because my ghosting values are down to 3% after all my modifications to the video settings in addition to new firmware. What I can do is upload my edid with no modification to it and you can see if it is better. I originally had to use ISF expert settings to remove color ghosting in Interleaved but now I can use Standard Video mode with PC label input. The final adjustment I needed to make was the sharpness value. My guide has been updated with my 3% ghosting for Interleaved.

Better to see for yourself.

BTW, Also check out the nvidia forum for new inf from talisol, he posted the LG DP 23" inf.
post #64 of 513
Thread Starter 
Here it is, although I don't know if I created it correctly.

 

55lw5600.zip 1.037109375k . file
post #65 of 513
Thread Starter 
Also, I'm viewing your photo of 0068 of NSF Shift with the red/white track with the porsche and I'm getting 0 color ghosting, I am getting 3% grey ghosting only on that picture. Definitely no red ghosting that you have in the picture.

Just ran those interleaved pictures from MrHopeful with the Drakensang game. No ghosting at all with those picture, and those are high depth settings with the trees 1 inch apart they do not have any ghosting either. The horse is a good example too in the background 1 inch apart, it doesn't ghost though.
post #66 of 513
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrHopeful
OK here's your pic through my specs, looks fine btw.. but do you know that that pic was top and bottom and not interleaved, yeah?

Anyways.. attachment at bottom.

I have a 920 and don't use checkerboard.

As for my depth, it all depend on the game and the particular angle, take a look at these, you'll see a difference. they're a lot more colourful too.

MEGAUPLOAD - The leading online storage and file delivery service

Silly me, sorry i mean to upload a interleaved image and not sbs, you converting this gives me high hopes of you know what your talking about, you are a good sourse of information.

Ah
Now i find why you have no colorbug .
You have a ld920 that does'nt have hdmi 1.4.
You see the problem we all have is with the hdmi 1.4 lg passive displays, deleting the edid extension bloc holds the hdmi 1.4 info hence why interleaved works when deleting this, allso checkerboard has'nt been calibrated correctly as greyscale is fine, its as if lg did'nt calibrate colorscale correctly in 3d.
I'm so happy you have working interlaced allthough i'm extremely sad that you could'nt confirm checkerboard or interleaved working on a ld950 hdmi 1.4..

I see this as not affecting you as you have no colorbug in interleaved and you do'nt have a hdmi 1.4 display, you have nothing to worry about untill you upgrade to lg passive hdmi 1.4 spec.


Thankyou very much for all your help and time you have given me.

As your tv does'nt have hdmi 1.4 you will have the same type as edid as our modified edid with the 1.4 hdmi extension bloc deleted, this is the true reason you have no colourbug, i'm guessing.

Sorry if i'm asking to much, it may not even be the same but its worth a trry.
Do you know how to instal display edid/infs?

If possible i'd like you to install a stock ld950 edid overide, this will add the hdmi 1.4 spec to your monitor, you would then need to reboot and try that shift 2 image again, i'm thinking this will make the tv have the colorbug that we have, do'nt worry you can roll back your monitors edid and this modified edid overide will not hurt anything, its not your display aka amd/nvidia driver but your monitors driver.

Again i'm sorry for drilling you but you really do hold a wealth of information for us and the community.
Modified ld950 edid overide.


So mrhopefull is correct, he has no colorbug but then he allso does'nt have a hdmi 1.4 3dtv, we actually delete the 1.4 info so its no suprise he has interleaved working, he cant test cb as the ld920 does'nt support it.
I'm gratefull to mrhopefull for his time and effort, his findings have helped me to piece together another part of this story.
post #67 of 513
your extension block is different now?

yours
Extension blocs.......... 1 (Reserved - 0x00)

Mine
Extension blocs.......... 1 (CEA-EXT)
post #68 of 513
Thread Starter 
Yeah, that's what mine says. Strange that VESA standards timing is maxed at 1680 x 1050p at 60Hz - VESA STD

Does you say EDID revision 1.3. Mine does.

Can you pull the LD920 Mrhopeful manual somewhere up online, I want to read the 3d section.
post #69 of 513
Quote:
Originally Posted by skyguy3d View Post

Yeah, that's what mine says. Strange that VESA standards timing is maxed at 1680 x 1050p at 60Hz - VESA STD

Does you say EDID revision 1.3. Mine does.

Can you pull the LD920 Mrhopeful manual somewhere up online, I want to read the 3d section.

Still have the colorbug with your new edid sadly.

So if your interlaced is now working without deleting the extension bloc then surely that means your new lg firmware has fixed the issue, if so then i'd love to see a new firmware for ld950 but i dougbt it very much.

can't find a manual to the ld920, this was never meant tobe released to the public as it was a sky3dtv for pubs so maybe there is no online manual ?
post #70 of 513
Thread Starter 
What are your video settings on the TV? If they can fix it here, then they should be able to fix it on that one too. Also, over here the firmware that I have was pulled and not everybody is using the 4.00.14 and a lot of people are still using the 3.00 firmware.
post #71 of 513
Just ried the ld920 edid that has no 1.4 3d info in it and bugger me it still has the colorbug, so i dno now, i think i'll leave this for awhile as i'm totally out of answers, i have o/u sbs and interleaved working, incidently i'll only be using interleaved for my games now.
You give me hopes as i would like to upgrade to a new 2011/12 lg passive knowing that there will be no colorbugs, so its all about the lg firmware then, hmmm.
post #72 of 513
Mr hopefull uploaded a working interlaced pic through his glasses on a lg920 passive which is'nt hdmi 1.4 and he used no modified edid and used hdmi , did'nt know if you wanted to add the pic to start of thread so i've included it just incase.


Edit

Damn thats a small pic, original one is at avforums, you know the place .
LL
post #73 of 513
In relation to what tv settings i'm using.

Have tried different hdmi ports, presets, options, input naming ect, been there and brought the shirt type of thing, just tested all the settings i can think of with the ld920 edid but alas it's still a fail.

Skyguy3d, do you know anybody with a passive 3dtv that has working interleaved/cb?

I've not had any confirmation of anybody on the lg passive side that has working checkerboard, heck i only know of maybe 4 forum threads on the net with the problem, so thats 3 or 4 people that have documented the bug that i know of, is there people out there with these sets that are using interleaved/cb with no bug what so ever?
I just do'nt know!

These are things that play on my mind alot. If i have a problem with things it's not usually hard to fix, you can buy a spare part, you can take someting to a mates and try it at theirs, you can usually test things,what would happen if i put my pc into mrhopeful's lg 3dtv, would i allso have working interleaved 3d with the edid the ld920 provides or would i still have the color bug.
It's so perplexing that it hurts lol?

i could'nt see lg fixing the ld950 if it does infact need fixing, its a old model now and from what i know it only ever had 1 firmware update and that was last year i think or early this year, i think there's no lg love coming my way.

If i could prove beyond a shadow of a dougbt that the ld950 does have a color bug then maybe i could get a refund as it would'nt be fit for it's purpose, i have around 6-7 months before my set is 12 month old.

What i DO know is that the ld950 manual states that it does'nt support 3d using a pc even though it states that all 3d options are available to use over dvi-hdmi, that's just strange and contradicting.
I believe this is where i do'nt have a leg to stand on when i ask for a full refund, lg will just say it does'nt play 3d using a pc and tell me to go away.
Allso given the fact that i have fixed my interleaved over hdmi i can't say for sure wether or not it's user error and if i had a correct setting cb would work allso.
Like i said for solid proof i'd need somebody with a working lg passive that allso know's somebody with a none working lg passive so they could swap pc's between the displays ect and see what happens.
Or
We need a external/stand alone 3dblu-ray player that can output specific 3d, so then we'd just choose cb and see if it played correctly and if it did then we know its our pc's at fauly maybe and if it did'nt then that would maybe proove that these sets are messed up.

i did try this on a samsung player that i got with a samsung 3dtv, on the sammy it outputed checkerboard, i know this cos when i used pc for 3d blu-ray i'd have to manually select checkerboard on the tv remote, the 3d picture in 2d had same effects as cb.
When i used 3d blu-ray player on the lg it outputted frequency, page flipping instead, lol bugger me!
So that proved nothing to me at all
So same blu-ray player, same pc that worked with cb on a sammy does'nt with the lg.
post #74 of 513
Does anyone have a link to a LG spec that states that any LG model will accept the Checkerboard format IAW the checkerboard 3D video tranmission spec as specified by TI?
I have seen references to some LGmodels having a totally differenct lower resolution B&W checkerboard format built into some of their models for use in calibrating the sets contrast seting.
post #75 of 513
Thread Starter 
Hi butmuncher,

I know others with the same LG 55LW5600 tv and has the same interleaved ghosting. I'm waiting to get some updates from them. I haven't met anybody that has confirmed though that checkerboard and interleaved mode is working 100% that has the same tv I do.

I believe when LG states that they don't support PC over 3D means they do not support the PC label input because I know previously on my TV, the PC label input caused the color ghosting on my TV but after updates or something, it is now working. At the time, I had to use the blank label input and use ISF expert mode to fix Interleaved ghosting. That's what I think they meant.

Hi walford,

If you go to the LG manual
http://www.manualowl.com/m/LG/55LW5600/Manual/193435
page 78 shows which 3d formats can be viewed with the 3D button on the LG remote.
page 122 shows the resolution and 3d format supported with the LG tv.

I don't have any spec sheet specifically though.
post #76 of 513
I've just sent a messege to inition, i used thier homepage email address to forward my email to, does anybody know a better email for inition?
From what i read Shannon from inition was liasing with lg techs on the 3dbluray bug with the ld950, this resulted in a firmware update that fixed the isssue so maybe they can help spread the word where it needs tobe spread.

so we do have many many users with the problem, i do wonder if its all users?
post #77 of 513
Have some new news, inition have replied and stated they has sent the details off to the correct people within lg, they are well known and should have some leverage in there words!

Allso i have just found out that i have made a vital mistake in the ld920 testing that mr hopeful did for us.
i sent him a over under picture which he then converted into over under by way of the 3dtv 3d options, this makes are colorbug test viod for the ld920, i have politely asked him to retake a picture with a interleaved picture instead, hopefully he will do this for us but i have asked alot of him since yesterday so i will report back soon.


....

Mrhopeful has replied and included a working interlaced image over hdmi on his ld920, this is the only person that has confirmed interlaced working with no colorbug, let me just piont out that the ld920 is a hdmi 1.3 spec, all problems may only be with the hdmi 1.4 spec.
post #78 of 513
Skyguy,
Thanks for the manual link it certainly states that the set will accept 3D 1080p/60 checkerboard format over HDMI.
post #79 of 513
Shannon Has contacted me again today stating she is in talks with the 3d cinema team about these issues.
I'm sure it's a firmware error anyway as skyguy states with a new firmware his interlaced works without the edid fix.

That is correct is'nt it skyguy?
post #80 of 513
Thread Starter 
Interleaved is working good here, almost close to sbs mode but has the advantage with lower lag input so still is the best mode to use.
post #81 of 513
Hey skyguy, I had a read over your passive setup guide and it's very useful, good work.

One thing I noted is that your settings to reduce ghosting involved high contrast and lower brightness, so would I be correct in assuming that you lose some detail in dark scenes? Or does the increased backlight help to bring some of that detail back?

Cheers
post #82 of 513
Thread Starter 
About the video settings. The criteria I used to test the different settings were based upon a couple factors that I felt important for the 3D effect.

-Ability to resolve details easily in dark environments
-higher levels of color saturation which helped bring out the 3D pop and dimensions of texture environments. Contrary to what I see in 3D images, color calibrations can effect the tv 3D sensation of depth which explains why people see different results when comparing different tvs.
-minimize the grey ghosting while at the same time keep the original image quality while in 3D mode.
-the higher back light setting compensates for the decreased brightness while wearing glasses which is important. Much brighter than shutter standards.

Cnet's calibration after studying the 3d effect was much different than the standard video settings in PC label mode and I thought the image had less 3D so that's why I chose this for best picture quality.

If you have better suggestions, feel free to add your settings, I would not mind testing new settings.
post #83 of 513
Thread Starter 
I'm surprised that this 4.00.18 firmware posted recently has completely removed the grey ghosting in Checkerboard mode. Again, this is only the halfway step to fixing the problem because color ghosting is still there but with this, I was able to reduce the TV color to 24 and keep the total ghosting down to about 8%. This is taking into account very bad color reproduction so hopefully the next steps will make it so we can use the original color values which is about 50. You can even use Test Method #2 to verify the results for color ghosting with my setting now at 24 for color the numbers have completely vanished in the right eye.

What I noticed is that the 3D settings from Side by Side mode now are copied over to the Checkerboard settings whereas before they were independent video settings.
post #84 of 513
Thread Starter 
I've got some hints in the EDID for the HDMI spec that shows that checkerboard has 4 different checkerboard modes you can see in this pdf on page 20-21 which adjusts the Quincunx sub pixel colors that may fix the color ghosting problem in 3D checkerboard mode.

It may be a matter of just changing the 3D_Ext_Data to one of the four values 0100, 0101, 0110, 0111

 

2010_03_04_3DExtraction_HDMI_Spec1.4a.pdf 388.25390625k . file
post #85 of 513
Quote:
Originally Posted by skyguy3d View Post

I've got some hints in the EDID for the HDMI spec that shows that checkerboard has 4 different checkerboard modes you can see in this pdf on page 20-21 which adjusts the Quincunx sub pixel colors that may fix the color ghosting problem in 3D checkerboard mode.

It may be a matter of just changing the 3D_Ext_Data to one of the four values 0100, 0101, 0110, 0111

Wish i knew how to 3D_Ext_Data .
I'm still rubbing my hands in anticipation of lg's findings, i sure hope they Do plug a pc in and try cb.
post #86 of 513
Thread Starter 
Butmuncher,

Can you read this post, it seems AA has some negative affect on interleaved image quality? Are you running no AA with the Nvidia driver?

http://forum.iz3d.com/viewtopic.php?t=4020
post #87 of 513
Hi,
I use aa when i can, latest game i'm playing is dirt3, i use interleaved and aa with no problems, one thing i have noticed wether i have aa on or off is that sbs looks alot better than interleaved, there is a big difference in 3d quality between the 2, i'd have to say sbs looks better on my ld950 as interleaved seems to create a tiny bit of something that looks like alaisin, even 32x aa can't get rid of this, but 8xaa for sbs mode looks very sharp with no visable alaising.

Some games work ok for me with aa and some do'nt, i can 100% say though that aa does'nt affect my interleaved image in a negative way at all.

Edit,

Tridef had a bug in its sbs for dirt3 so if i wanted to use sbs i'd have to use iz3d, tridef have now fixed the bug so i could test dirt3 again, what i found was iz3d has a nice crisp sbs image where as tridef does'nt
post #88 of 513
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Butmuncher View Post
Hi,
I use aa when i can, latest game i'm playing is dirt3, i use interleaved and aa with no problems, one thing i have noticed wether i have aa on or off is that sbs looks alot better than interleaved, there is a big difference in 3d quality between the 2, i'd have to say sbs looks better on my ld950 as interleaved seems to create a tiny bit of something that looks like alaisin, even 32x aa can't get rid of this, but 8xaa for sbs mode looks very sharp with no visable alaising.

Some games work ok for me with aa and some do'nt, i can 100% say though that aa does'nt affect my interleaved image in a negative way at all.

Edit,

Tridef had a bug in its sbs for dirt3 so if i wanted to use sbs i'd have to use iz3d, tridef have now fixed the bug so i could test dirt3 again, what i found was iz3d has a nice crisp sbs image where as tridef does'nt
The aliasing on IZ3D is when the optimized interleaved is not used so it causes the eyes to see the lines more easily. If you use line interleaved alone then yes there would be more jaggies but from what I've seen this algorithm applied does not cause the ghosting. From my post I linked it seems it is more a post-processing AA like MLAA that causes problems with Passive displays. I just wanted to see if Nvidia had a similar post AA. Try and run at native resolution and tell me how Line-Interleaved Horizontal Optimized works for you. I'm getting better results with this.
post #89 of 513
Quote:
Originally Posted by skyguy3d View Post
The aliasing on IZ3D is when the optimized interleaved is not used so it causes the eyes to see the lines more easily. If you use line interleaved alone then yes there would be more jaggies but from what I've seen this algorithm applied does not cause the ghosting. From my post I linked it seems it is more a post-processing AA like MLAA that causes problems with Passive displays. I just wanted to see if Nvidia had a similar post AA. Try and run at native resolution and tell me how Line-Interleaved Horizontal Optimized works for you. I'm getting better results with this.
That done the trick, going to try the other tridef interleaved 3d now.
Iz3d looked a hell of alot smoother with the optimized interleaved, normal interleaved gave what looks like horizontal alaising

.
ta
post #90 of 513
This might be completely the wrong place to ask for help with this, but I'm struggling somewhat to find an answer to my problem so hoping someone here might have similar experiences and advice on how to rectify.

I have recently purchased an LG 42LW450U Cinema3d (passive) HDTV and coupled with with my ATI HD6950 via a HDMI 1.4a cable. HDMI is connected to HDMI1, and the port is labelled as PC to reduce lag. It should be noted that in this mode, only 16:9 and 14:3 aspect options are available. For the record it should also be assumed that this is where the primary testing has taken place, although switching the label to Game and enabling "just scan" as the aspect setting has also been done for all tests just to isolate the issue, with little or no effect)

I've been running tests with both iZ3d and DDD Tridef for various 3d games.

All resolution tests are running at 1080p60, and 1080p24 (which this TV can natively support).

What I've found is that with iZ3d interleaved mode works fine, although with some ghosting. Tridef works with interleaving if set to reverse, but also with ghosting. The amount seems to change dependent on the title or tests involved. Overall Tridef does seem to have a slight advantage, at least in terms of out-of-the-box ease of use and overall quality.

I can't get iZ3d to work with AMD's HD3D, though I haven't tried extensively with it yet, however I have got it working with Tridef's drivers.

Now to the root of the problem:

Running AMD's HD3D switches the output to 1080p24. At this point, the Catalyst drivers are underscanning by approx 10% around the screen, giving ugly black borders and reduced screen size. Catalyst options DO allow for under/overscan compensation, but only for "standard" HDTV modes.

There are a number of "Optimized" HDTV modes present which are also labeled, for example, 1080p24, but which appear to be slightly reduced resolutions, which whilst I can select in the Catalyst CC, I can't modify; any options to do so are greyed out.

I believe this is the cause of my problem, that when the set switches to 1080p24 in 3d over HDMI1.4a the output is forcing to this "optimized" resolution which is severely underscanned.

Can anyone suggest how I might override this somehow?
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