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3D POP out Question - Page 6

post #151 of 215
Considering that the original 3D films from the 50s were all about depth and not pop-out, and it only became a gimmick in the 80s as an attraction at theme parks with lots of pop-out, I'm going to say that your statement about the reasons behind depth-based 3D authoring is somewhat flawed.
post #152 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackoutsBox View Post

I'm insane I admit it so I'm going to take that as a compliment even though I know you are being sarcastic.

Insanity didn't cross my mind at all. Drugs, yes. biggrin.gif Some of your video did make me laugh, starting with the straw in the camera and how amazed you looked when you acted like you discovered negative parallax. With that hat and the scarf, the scene reminded me of a monkey in the circus seeing himself in a mirror. Take it as a compliment.
post #153 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by cakefoo View Post


That's fine. Popout is actually really complicated to shoot- it basically needs to be scripted. Documentaries are predominantly an educational and immersive look at a foreign topic, while popout is about poking foreign objects at the viewer to startle them.


I stay away from popout, but you'll find it in boatloads if you watch Piranha 3D, Saw 3D--- are you seeing the trend I'm getting at?

Ok. I have the benq w1070 with resident evil afterlife, bait, hotel transylvania, history of the world in 2 hours (all 3d). Other than above 2 movies, anything else with a lot of pop out (gimmicky, but great b/c we fell in love with it in theatres)? I realize it's about content.

Do you think those with the Runco, sim2, christie, etc. projectors are afforded more pop out because of the optics processing (for 10k-30k+)?
post #154 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedi2016 View Post

Considering that the original 3D films from the 50s were all about depth and not pop-out, and it only became a gimmick in the 80s as an attraction at theme parks with lots of pop-out, I'm going to say that your statement about the reasons behind depth-based 3D authoring is somewhat flawed.

I actually remember pop-out being used a great deal in the 70s...such as flicks like COMIN' AT YA and ANDY WARHOL'S FRANKENSTEIN (aka FLESH FOR FRANKENSTEIN in 2D). A shame the latter has never been released in it's original 3D on disc.
post #155 of 215
Just watch the 3d chainsaw on YouTube, if the part with the drill feels like it's touching your nose damn near
post #156 of 215
I just watched "Spy Kids 3D-Game Over" I've owned the field sequential 3D DVD version for years but that was 4:3 low rez.
The BD version is amazing. Lots of pop out, both fast and slow. Some objects hang in front of the screen long enough for you to reach out and try to grab them.
Although it's kind of kids version of "Tron" (#1) I really enjoyed it. Way more than "Avatar." Give me a break: "unobtanium" and cyclic pitch helicopter rotor sounds for
a ducted fan aircraft! But I digress.

So, if you want pop out, live action + CGI, Stallone, Clooney, Banderas, and Ricardo Montalban in his last motion picture appearance, get a $35 bucket of popcorn,
put on the glasses and enjoy. There is only one short shot where the left/right are reversed but it passes quickly.
Extra features are abundant: making of, commentary, 10 minute film school, etc.

$15 from Amazon and you also get "The Adventures of Sharkboy and Lavagirl 3D"
td
post #157 of 215
Final Destination 3D has some good, gimmicky popout.
post #158 of 215
While I am getting great depth on movies like Hugo, I still have to experience good pop-out on my JVC X30 using the PS3 as the source. Sammy had great "pop out holo effects" in the cinema, but appears rather flat on my 92" screen.

Could the PS3 be the culpit???
post #159 of 215
Only if you're fiddling with the settings (and I believe those are typically in the TV and not the player). It's always best to just play the movie "as-is", without trying to adjust any of the 3D settings yourself. They have stereographers for a reason.
post #160 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedi2016 View Post

Only if you're fiddling with the settings (and I believe those are typically in the TV and not the player). It's always best to just play the movie "as-is", without trying to adjust any of the 3D settings yourself. They have stereographers for a reason.
People who understand the function can and should tweak it to their personal tastes.
Edited by cakefoo - 4/28/13 at 1:02am
post #161 of 215
Two words: Director's intent.

I fail to see why it's anathema to tweak color, brightness, or aspect ratio for "personal taste", but it's perfectly fine to futz with 3D.
post #162 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedi2016 View Post

Two words: Director's intent.

I fail to see why it's anathema to tweak color, brightness, or aspect ratio for "personal taste", but it's perfectly fine to futz with 3D.

Sometimes equipment issues can result in 3D that doesn't work all that well in some instances. I had all sorts of issues with Prometheus but adjusting the 3D in the player brought out the 3D that was otherwise all but invisible.
Its not always best to just let the disk play as it is. This is entertainment for people in the privacy of their own homes too. They should adjust anything they like to suit their tastes. We may not agree with their settings but its not really any of our business.
post #163 of 215
The 3D in Prometheus was fine, so adjusting the settings on your equipment would merely return the disc to the way it was meant to be played.

I'm not 100% convinced that there is such a thing as an equipment problem that would change the way 3D is displayed, as long as all settings were defaulted. The 3D is effectively "hardcoded" onto the disc. Why a player would play one disc one way and another disc another way completely baffles me, because they're all encoded the same way. I think what's happening here isn't an equipment problem at all, but rather a viewer problem. One disc has "better" 3D, and another has "worse" 3D. It's not a problem of equipment or coding at all, but preference for gimmicks like pop-out.

If you have to alter the director's vision of a film just so you can get a "thrill" out of watching **** come flying out of the screen at you, then you're doing it wrong. This is AVS, after all, and this forum is not exempt from the opinions of the rest of the board. I'm sure there's some wonderfully pop-out-centric forums out there somewhere.
post #164 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedi2016 View Post

Two words: Director's intent.

I fail to see why it's anathema to tweak color, brightness, or aspect ratio for "personal taste", but it's perfectly fine to futz with 3D.
When it comes to color settings and aspect ratio, yes there is a single vision the director had, and I always honor that. But the look of 3D changes based on screen size, viewing distance and convergence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedi2016 View Post

If you have to alter the director's vision of a film just so you can get a "thrill" out of watching **** come flying out of the screen at you, then you're doing it wrong.
There is no right or wrong. You can move the 3D "stage" wherever you want it based on how you prefer to feel. Some people want in-your-face, others want a deep sense of scale. It's a different feeling on your eyes, a different sensation in your brain, but not right or wrong.
post #165 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedi2016 View Post

Only if you're fiddling with the settings (and I believe those are typically in the TV and not the player). It's always best to just play the movie "as-is", without trying to adjust any of the 3D settings yourself. They have stereographers for a reason.

The only setting I see in the PS3 menu is the "Screen size" for 3D - which is correctly set to 92".

As said, depth is really good on the X30 with the new RF glasses, but pop-up is almost non-existing :-(
post #166 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by Webmonkey View Post

The only setting I see in the PS3 menu is the "Screen size" for 3D - which is correctly set to 92".

As said, depth is really good on the X30 with the new RF glasses, but pop-up is almost non-existing :-(
That makes no sense (if you're projector's convergence settings, sometimes called depth settings, are at default/zero). Depth and pop-out are displayed basically the exact same way--just with the images offset in different directions. It could be just a perceptual thing, sitting far away from the screen in a darkened room. Set up some household items or furniture near the borders of your screen, and you might notice 3D objects "popping out" more.
Edited by BleedOrange11 - 4/29/13 at 7:11am
post #167 of 215
The screen size setting is the convergence setting for the PS3, so that one may be fine. However, I'm starting to think that it is unalterable for BD3Ds, despite whatever number it's on (Possibly either because the original number inputted is retained in the PS3's memory or the HDMI cable communicates with the display and sets it correctly automatically). I turned mine up to 1000" a couple of days ago watching Puss in Boots, and it looked the exact same as 42".

The projector might have a screen size setting as well.
Edited by BleedOrange11 - 4/29/13 at 4:18pm
post #168 of 215
Screen size on the PS3, as far as I'm aware, only affects 3D rendering in games, in determining how far the separation should be between left and right images. The ideal distance of approximately 60mm at maximum separation on the positive axis is easy to determine based on the size of the screen. I've found the system to be very accurate at rendering separation based on the correct value being input here. My PC does the same thing, able to set maximum separation right where it needs to be, based only on the size of the screen.

3D Blu-rays, on the other hand, are encoded as two separate images to begin with. The left and right eye images are simply displayed as-is, using the convergence and separation (two different things) that are effectively hardcoded to the disc. To my knowledge, the screen size setting has no effect on this, it's simply displaying what it's told.

Some TVs (the TV, not the player), have a "3D depth" setting, or something named similarly, that will forcibly adjust the distance between the left and right eyes. Aside from crushing the sides of the image, it also affects the convergence.. the "screen depth" portion of the image that is typically chosen as the focal point of the shot (usually the actor). Adjusting the separation manually moves the convergence forward or backward, so that the 3D "focus" of the shot is now on some random object in the scene rather than the central focus as determined by the director, cinematographer, and stereographer. That's why I have an issue with changing it, you're altering the focal point of the shot.

I've never even bothered to learn where that setting is on my TV. The only button I bother with is "3D on/off".

Shot depth and convergence is based on more than just pushing things forward or backward. The convergence is set very carefully, shot by shot, by the people with decades of filmmaking experience, and it seems pretty arrogant to just throw all that away in favor of a gimmick, without even considering things like edge-breaking. How many of you who push your settings for more pop-out even know what it means to break the edge, or why it's a bad thing?
post #169 of 215
I only own a PS3, but just from reading, the manual screen size setting on other BD3D players typically does change convergence. The PS3 is a weird exception.

The convergence point and the focus point are not always the same thing. You can shift convergence and retain the same focus point, and in an ideal completely darkened room (or when wearing a HMD), you can't even tell where the convergence point is. Besides determining which part of the image is in front of/behind the screen, the only thing that changing convergence does for sure is increase or decrease your perception of depth strength and proximity to the 3D image--the same as physically moving further away or closer to the screen.

http://www.lightillusion.com/stereo_3d_convergencefocus.html

Having said that, I'm all for the theatrical convergence settings. Typically my viewing conditions are not ideally darkened, and when pop-out objects leave the borders of the screen and appear to enter my physical environment (examples: the silica storm in Prometheus, the rainstorms in Life of Pi), they become much more dramatic, affecting the story-telling. I wouldn't want a negative shift in convergence due to window violations, and I wouldn't want a positive shift in convergence due to the reduced effectiveness of pop-out moments. I'd rather physically move my sofa to suit my preference for depth and proximity, but that's mainly just because of my viewing environment.
Edited by BleedOrange11 - 4/29/13 at 11:40pm
post #170 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedi2016 View Post

Some TVs (the TV, not the player), have a "3D depth" setting, or something named similarly, that will forcibly adjust the distance between the left and right eyes.
"3D Viewpoint" on LG TV's is a convergence setting only. It just pans the left and right eye images horizontally. I wouldn't call it "distance between the left and right eyes," because that's interaxial (lateral positional movement only possible in games that are rendered in realtime). Interaxial is hard-coded at the time the movie is recorded. I say this not for your sake, as I'm sure you know this already, but for the sake of the people you're trying to educate, because they might confuse the two if they hear a trigger word like "distance."
Quote:
Adjusting the separation manually moves the convergence forward or backward, so that the 3D "focus" of the shot is now on some random object in the scene rather than the central focus as determined by the director, cinematographer, and stereographer.
Again, not to slap you on the back of the hand twice in one post, but for the sake of others who might potentially be confused, I want to discourage you from saying "separation" when describing convergence. It's just hard for people who don't know the difference between convergence and interaxial spacing.
Quote:
That's why I have an issue with changing it, you're altering the focal point of the shot.[
I'm out of this mentality that the screen plane matters. There is no TV, there are only four walls cutting off the image. Setting the viewpoint at a positive value pushes the scene further away while increasing the sense of scale to that of a theater. Shift it to a negative value and everything begins to float closer to you, which can feel dreamy. The only objective downsides to adjust convergence away from default are potential eye strain and crosstalk, which will vary from person to person and TV to TV respectively.
Quote:
I've never even bothered to learn where that setting is on my TV. The only button I bother with is "3D on/off".
As I said, it has its benefits. I usually shift things positive for a slightly larger sense of scale. But I've been wanting to re-watch Life of Pi with it set to negative, not because I'm a sucker for popout gimmickry, but simply because negative parallax can be mesmerizing emotionally, like the popout faces in a few instances in Hugo to make the audience feel more connected to that character.
Quote:
Shot depth and convergence is based on more than just pushing things forward or backward. The convergence is set very carefully, shot by shot, by the people with decades of filmmaking experience, and it seems pretty arrogant to just throw all that away in favor of a gimmick, without even considering things like edge-breaking. How many of you who push your settings for more pop-out even know what it means to break the edge, or why it's a bad thing?
I wouldn't consider negative parallax to be a gimmick-- what's a gimmick is when there's a sword or spear coming out of the screen pointing at my nose for no story-driven reason at all.

I know the importance of convergence; I abided by the rules in all my stereo content: http://www.youtube.com/user/MuchRockness/search?query=yt3d

I was very consistent from shot to shot, making sure you could relax your eyes and have each shot be in focus with minimal eye adjustments. But when you change the viewpoint on the TV, you just readjust your eyes once and then your eyes are set for the entire movie. Sure, movies are designed so that your eyes focus on the same point they converge on for the majority of the 2 hours, but as you get more used to viewing 3D the negative side effects associated with that disconnect diminish.

Again, I disagree with the theory that we must be conscious of where the plane of the screen is as if its position relative to the content in the movie matters. What matters is the relative position of something at infinity vs something that's meant to be in the extreme negative parallax. The stereo windows are a distraction I'm trying to avoid focusing on, because they're really irrelevant to the story. The only exception I can think of where the window is important is when Raimi conjures flames and a tophat to fly out of the 4:3 frame in the movie Oz: The Great and the Powerful. When I saw that I thought it was a pretty clever homage to old 4:3 films.
Edited by cakefoo - 4/29/13 at 11:58pm
post #171 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mongis View Post

Imax: Legends of Flight has lots of in your face moments though.

I fully agree, I haven't seen anything yet come close to Legends of flight in reference to Pop-Out.
post #172 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by dukedallas2005 View Post

I fully agree, I haven't seen anything yet come close to Legends of flight in reference to Pop-Out.

Have you seen Sammy's Tale?
post #173 of 215
If you want good pop out try my Marine World 3D movie, many scenes like the potato cod on the IMAX movie and Kuju Hana koen movie has pop also.

Www.blazin3D.com
post #174 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by WynsWrld98 View Post

Have you seen Sammy's Tale?

No, I cant find it
post #175 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by WynsWrld98 View Post

Have you seen Sammy's Tale?

This is one of the titles that made my "love" 3D - at the cinema - the turtles was "floating in mid air" - like holographic - but at home on the JVC X30 - nothing really :-(
post #176 of 215
post #177 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by Webmonkey View Post

This is one of the titles that made my "love" 3D - at the cinema - the turtles was "floating in mid air" - like holographic - but at home on the JVC X30 - nothing really :-(

xlnt 3D on Sammys Take on my Epson 6010. how does the famous Potato Cod scene look on the JVC? when I freeze frame on that and give time for eyes to adjust that is truly amazing!!!!!!!!
post #178 of 215
I have an LG55LM6400 TV. With the factory 3D settings all at default (standard), there was no discernible "pop out" with any movies that I watched, the picture essentially started at the TV frame and went back from there.. But after playing with the various 3D "modes" I finally settled on the "Cinema" setting. With it in Cinema Mode, there is substantial "pop out" and a very deep field of view extending far back inside through the "window" of the TV frame. The overall 3D effect is MUCH better than it was in "Standard" mode.

We just finished watching Hugo, and the snow was hitting us in the face. So for those that don't feel that their television is delivering on the 3D that they expected from it, I strongly urge you to just play with the various settings, you aren't going to hurt anything (you can always reset to default), and you may find that your TV can do much better than it was from the factory.
post #179 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by spanky250 View Post

I have an LG55LM6400 TV. With the factory 3D settings all at default (standard), there was no discernible "pop out" with any movies that I watched, the picture essentially started at the TV frame and went back from there.. But after playing with the various 3D "modes" I finally settled on the "Cinema" setting. With it in Cinema Mode, there is substantial "pop out" and a very deep field of view extending far back inside through the "window" of the TV frame. The overall 3D effect is MUCH better than it was in "Standard" mode.

We just finished watching Hugo, and the snow was hitting us in the face. So for those that don't feel that their television is delivering on the 3D that they expected from it, I strongly urge you to just play with the various settings, you aren't going to hurt anything (you can always reset to default), and you may find that your TV can do much better than it was from the factory.

What are your settings in the Cinema Mode?
post #180 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by cinema13 View Post

What are your settings in the Cinema Mode?

3D Depth is 15.

3D Viewpoint is -3.

The "Standard" setting had everything right in the middle. The changes don't seem like much, but they made a dramatic difference in the 3D effect.
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