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"World Premiere 4K 3D DLP passive Stack" - Page 5

post #121 of 229
A couple of Halogen spots would be much cheaper than all that filtering, even LED would, opening your eyes;-). It is simple, and 80-100fL should become acceptable on that BIG Screen TV of yours;-).
post #122 of 229
Thread Starter 
Peter thats not metal all made from printet circuit material.

yes donaldk thats possible but against my basic idea about a
black box cinema.

i have some problem to playback 3d bd!

in the past i use a doremi demension 3d unit that split the 3d bd frame packing signal into 2 hd sdi out.

my old pr. the barco dp 2000 have 2 hd sdi inputs and everything works fine.

now as i have this passive stack i need to feed each pr. with this signal.

problem is that one pr. till now not have any hd sdi input and the other
have one inside the 4k imb.
this 4k imb hdsdi input till yesterday not works right(wrong color) but i found that this is only a adjustment problem and since yesterday now it works just fine.

as i not like to spend ONLY for playback 3d bds a secound 4k imb that costs
more that most high end home cinema pr. and a single hdsdi input for pr. number 2 is also not good as no one can give me a guarantee
that both very different hd sdi inputs (one is via the imb the other a direct into the 4k pr.)have 100% the same time delay for the signal!

so i order 2 black magic hd sdi converter but they works with a 3d tv but not with the dvi input both 4k dlps have!

than i try a doremi hd sdi converter and this one works but there i cant
adjust 23.98p out and with the 60 out i have the 3:2 pulldown motion bug inside and with the possible 48 hz i have some micro studder every 20 sec. or so as 2x 23.976 is 47.952
not 100% 48.00 hz.

now i will try a new hd sdi converter and hope they will work as i need it.

if the new converter will also not work a further possibility can be to use
2 cheap lumagan mini scalers!

if you buy 2 of them you can select one to output only the right 3d frame and the other to output only the left one.(very similar to the optoma box but they made the black not right or better not show near 10 ire anything!)
that can be for some people a good solution that cant live with the
optoma black bug and not like to spend the money for the doremi
demension 3d.

so you just need a hdmi splitter and this 2 units.

also a big advantages is in this 3d setup compare to the other is that you can adjust all picture
parameters like color saturation detail and so on """IN 3D""".
no 3d bd player can do at this time as they can do that only in 2d mode!

pr. vibration is also a problem but before it gets to long better later.....
post #123 of 229
post #124 of 229
Thread Starter 
no thats new for me thanks for the link.

but seems they are not ready with a finish product and i not saw any
info about pricing.
also no one know how good the quality will be.
i pm them already lets see what they will say.

where are a 3d bd player that simple have 2 hdmi out that you can use as a
left and right eye out?
yes may this means 2 chip sets and one pcb more but this is not that expensive and a good argument for sale!
post #125 of 229

post #126 of 229
Thread Starter 
did you try it at a 4k b 32 barco?

the blachmagic hd sdi converter works perfekt on other displays or
pr. but not at the input from the 4k dlp!

till someone try it on the 4k dvi input you can not be sure.

tomorrow i will get a new hdsdi to dvi converter.......
post #127 of 229
Not yet , but soon. It works on Digital Projections Titan, as it was co developed with DPI. So maybe it works!

i was not successful using the optoma mickey mouse 3d box in the dp4k23 dual link. but then again I also have problems feeding stereo hdsdi bnc into the Doremi IMB.

I also have problems with the color in the IMB, could not input stereo hdtv format, had to use xyz. How did you fix that?
post #128 of 229
Thread Starter 
i try differnt color spaces the imb offers.
as i dont know what i select at the demension 3d i cant tell what i select at the imb.

but i know it works perfect.

next time (if i not forgeth) i will look into what i select at the imb and what i select on
the demension 3d doremi.

i will get also tomorrow 2 of this mini scalers and will try it as well.
they are both together include a hdmi splitter much cheaper than this 3d blue ray players and no one know if they are working with the barco b32 dvi inputs!
post #129 of 229
Thread Starter 
problems with the dvi input from the pr. and IMB HDMI input.

i used in the past a doremi demension 3d to split the frame packing 3d signal
a 3d bd player output into 2 seperate hd sdi cables that i input in my old
barco dp 2000.
this playback 3d bds fine without any problem.

now as i have a passive stack i like to do the same but as one 4k pr.have a IMB with a hd sdi input the other one not i need a converter from hd sdi to dvi.

to my big surprise a new blackmagic hd sdi to dvi converter not works at all at the dvi input from the 4k pr.
the same converter works perfekt on other tvs or monitors as well with a jvc home cinema pr. the x3.
i try than a AJA converter and this one also not works at all with the dvi input from the pr. but it works like the blackmagic with all the other displays i try.

than i try my oppo 93 3d bd player direct to the pr. with 2d material.
as i was very much involved in the past in the redesign of my cinema i not see that this
signal was also not right.
black was gray and 100% white was not full white.
also colors looks not good at all.

first i think i can adjust this by selecting other hdmi options as many times i see
such things and for sample switch from pc level to video level
16-235 or 0-255 solve it but i was very surprised to see that nothing change when
i use different adjustments!
same for the picture adjustments like color,brighness,cr. and so on i can adjust at the
bd player but nothing happen at the screen.
that was in 2d not 3d as the oppo like other 3d bd players not offer this kind of adjustements in 3d.

as i cant get whatever i try to adjust from the pr. side a right picture with right
black and white level i try the hdmi input from the imb.

strange there i can at least use the adjustments for brightnes cr. and so on
but also not the pc /video level from the hdmi out the bd player have.

all this takes hours as there was so many combination as i can select
hdmi color at the doremi imb AND the pr. itselv.

to make it short i found "only one combination" that works at all that show almost a right
picture in 2d but there i use very wrong adjustments the oppo bs player offers
for brightness cr. and colorsaturation.
so thats a temporarily solution for the time beeing to watch 2d bd content but
barco/doremi have to fix this.

i also found a strange way to playback my 3d bs.
as above described no converter hd sdi to dvi works at all at the dvi input from both 4k barco dlps.

someone told me to try to use a hdmi splitter after the hdsdi converter in between the
converter and the dvi input from the pr.

you know what it works at least with one converter.

i put the hdmi output from the blackmagic to the hdmi input of
the splitter(1 input 8 outputs) and use hdmi out number 8 to the pr. and i see a picture.
very wrong color but at least a picture.
i cant adjust the right color but when i try the aja hd sdi to hdmi converter the color war right and with the pr. the oppo adjustments color brightness and cr.and the doremi demension3d i can adjust a picture that
looks almost right.


the dvi input from the pr. itself have some bugs as it not works at all with converters blocks all adjustments a bd players offers (picture AND hdmi level adjustments) and not show the right black and white levels.

as well the hdmi input from the doremi 4k imb are also offers not offers the adjustments from the right hdmi levels and only with big tricks you can get a picture that was
close to the right picture this unit shoud do.

as only few people use this cinema pr. in home cinemas and feed almost 100%
none dci content via the dvi inputs or the imb hdmi or other inputs i hope that both companys not wait to long to solve it.
in a good year from now most big cinemas are already convet into digital.

than this companys will look into other markets and high end home cinema is one of them.
post #130 of 229
I too am fed up with this darn IMB, whomever came up with this idea is a moron.

If you convert all your sources to dual hsdi using several D3D When I switch dual hdsdi using 2 spatz infrared switchers in parallel the image changes in 1/100th of a second (back and forth perfect), if you try switching through the IMB I get a freeze frame picture of a dci trailer, or a pink screen, then 2 seconds later you get a picture. THIS IS NOT RIGHT.

Regarding the dvi input on the Barco dp4k-23b, it looked fine to me. I would have to test the pc level thing, but I cannot at the moment have to finish SKOLL for Thanksgiving.
post #131 of 229
Thread Starter 
this units are made not for us they are made for cinemas and I think
with cinema source material there was no problem.

but as i say the company's begin to understand that they need in future
when all cinemas are have digital pr. someone that buy there pr.
and we with high end home cinemas are a possible future customer.
the numbers are low now but will increase.
the better the source material gets the more it make sense to have such pr.
same for 3d if you like a perfect 3d picture bright and with no flicker
than this dci dlps are a must.

but no question todays standard source material like hdmi out material from bd and stb should not be a problem to display.
I spend much money for the 4K IMB and I expect that there hdmi input works perfect with consumer hdmi soureces.
same for the dvi input the pr.itself have.

when I feed I true hdtv signal via the dvi inputs and I select at the pr. hdtv or rec.709 the picture should look ok and not green.

I think the problems are dvi problems may in combinations with some other problems.
my 2k barco dp 2000 never had this kind of problems even not at the dvi inputs.
post #132 of 229
Just a wilde guess, but the keyword might be HDCP.
I´ve seen the strangest things happening, when the Copyprotection-Chain is corrupt.

Either the implemantation on the Doremi is faulty or somthing is lost due to communication problems between the components.

Have you tried to bypass the HDCP ? ( mit Herrn Reineke )
post #133 of 229
Thread Starter 
i am sure its not a hdcp issue.

i feed from my sony ex1r video cam at 24p material without any hdcp and i had the same problem.(hd sdi converter)

secound when i feed direct from the
oppo 93 bd player in 2d 24p to the dvi input from the pr.(with hdcp) i have also wrong levels and can not adjust anything at the player that you normally can do.

today the secound 1 input 8 output hdmi splitter arrives me and it works when i put them in the loop as i post already.

just 30 min. ago i saw the first time a bd in 3d with my new double stack setup and this new infitec filters.
around 45 ftl in 3d !
i like the picture and motion is far better in this passive double stack 3d setup
compare to a single 3d pr. setup.

you cant compare this picture quality to my native 4k 3d stills but it looks
very good.

i hope some day the studios release dci quality.
i not care about release date i care only about quality.
with dish network it should be easy for them to make some more money and
copyprotection is far better than any bd.
post #134 of 229
Thread Starter 
its almost done ..

with some strange combinations see some posts before i can
now watch 3d bds over the dvi inputs from both pr.

all in all it was a big step up in quality that has been made with this redesign of my cinema with the two 4k barco b 32 cinema dlps.

there is no way back to 2k when you get used to 4k.
even 2k material benefits a little bit from the upscale to 4k even if the difference is by far not as big as when you compare it
with native 4k.

i post this thread as some people ask for it and this push me a bit to do it.
also one reason was that it was truly a world premiere to see
3d stills native in 4k with a 4k dlp passive stack.

someday not too far in future we will have 4k native in 3d at 48 or 60 frames.
this will depends on how bright we can project it looks like real.
a foretaste today are my 4k 3d stills.

it was a not easy long way
and as i post with some surprising bugs i found and other things that goes
much better than i thought.

as it was a world premiere i had often no one that can answer questions i have so i need to find it out myself.
like with the div input problems and other things i have to find as well a solution myself.
but also often i got very good infos or help from people and i say thank you for this help to them again.
its may helpful for some companies as well to hear from this bugs before more people install them in home cinemas.

beside the work at the cinema and the postings i have fun to do it but sometimes i was very frustrate but
it was nice to get some positive reaction as well.
also it was nice that someone that visit me and saw the setup order as well a barco b32 4k pr.

i will may add at this tread in future sometime news but not as much i do in the past few months.

not forget next year it will be the 4k year.
a good start will be the Sony VW 1000.

thanks for reading and have fun with home cinema.


post #135 of 229
Wolfgang, is there any way to order the new Infitec filters and glasses. I saw you mentioned they would be available at the end of the year.

I love the setup, I plan to have something similar one day, I'm only 24 and still in school so I'll have to stick with a cheaper setup for now.
post #136 of 229
Thread Starter 
the new infitec filterdesign is called "E" and so far i know they have start
shipment or very soon.
i think the "E" stands for "excellence".

there are 3 design of glasses.

premium about 350 euro
plus about 150 euro
economy price is not fixed jet but under 50 euro.

i use the plus model.

all models now have curve glasses and much less reflections compare to the
old design with the flat glasses.

this new system not "need" color correction!
you can do it but its not necessary only a option!

filtercost are not deside at this time but i hear from them that they are
looking for a professional line i think that cover bigger filters and as well
a cheaper version that are match with consumers price level
for a double pr. 3d set up.

as always there are pro and con about a double infitec 3d pr. setup compare to a single pr. with shutter but i can tell you
for me it will be almost impossible to step down from this setup.

its not about the light level in 3d that can be double compare to a
single pr. 3d setup its the way motion was handle that makes for me the biggest difference!

the only other way to do a passive 3d double pr. setup is with polarizer.

that is "for me" a clear "no" as there is and there will be no screen that have
huge hot spot and huge speceling.
in cinemas as you sit very far away its a almost no issue excluding the very first rows but at home with small distances.........

ghosting is a secound issue and ghosting gets more by the time a silver screen grows old.

as i say there was always pro and cons but all in all i think also for people that like to upgrade to 3d by using there existing pr. existing screen
a double 3d pr. setup with infitec is may a cheaper solution as buy a new
3d pr. and often it can be the better solution.
post #137 of 229
Thank you, if you have any information on who I should contact regarding the consumer dual projector filters please let me know. For now I am just using the lens from Dolby glasses as filters.
post #138 of 229
Thread Starter 
how about send a mail to infitec and ask them what you like?

post #139 of 229
Originally Posted by W.Mayer View Post

all models now have curve glasses and much less reflections compare to the
old design with the flat glasses.

Funny to be reading this. Watching 3D the other day I noticed a reflection (room is completely black with curved screen ) when panning my head during the movie. Indeed my glasses are flat.
post #140 of 229
Originally Posted by W.Mayer View Post

Wow !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

post #141 of 229
Thread Starter 
thanks art

here is may a even better one.

I do some more pictures as the leading germany magazine
Audio Vision ask me for a report about my new 4k cinema
and for some pictures for there next issue.

i buy a fisheye optic and learn how to process this pictures that it not look
anymore like a fisheye picture.

the angle is over 150° this picture was made and only
this optic can show almost everything.

the position from where i made this picture was around only about 28" from the right side of the screen in distance and it almost show the whole screen wide together with the left side the 3 rows of the seats till to the back of
the pr. room.
i sit on the last row left and left from me you can see the running 4k dlp.

post #142 of 229
Schneider lens? Here in Holland someone was promoting one for use with the Sanyo Xacti, the lens was almost as expensive as the camera, that was a Century Optics, one of the many subsidiaries/brands by Schneider Optics.

Little ones got the best seats in the house;-).
post #143 of 229
How about a pan view like this one ?
post #144 of 229
Thread Starter 
no thanks it was enough work to get this picture how it was.

the picture show 150° of the cinema and the back side is a black wall nothing at all there so no point to do this.
you cant see more with a pan view.
post #145 of 229
What size is that room ? It looks like the house I live in would fit inside with room to spare
post #146 of 229
Thread Starter 
its not so big as it looks in the picture.

its 750 sqft include pr. room.

the ratio from room size to screen is also important.
i see in us big rooms but small screens.
my cinema is opposite it have a huge screen in a moderate big room.
post #147 of 229
70 m2 so your room is something like 10 wide and 7 deep, no more like 9 x 7,8 so 9 x 6 nett excluding the projector room? You need the width as your screen is 7 meters wide. It looks deeper than that.

Edit: Wolfgang just emailed me a floorplan of his Theater. the image is too large to attach, but is is indeed roughly 70 square meters, but it is longer than i suggested above, because his theater is funnelshaped. The room flares out towards the screen. At the screen it is a little over 7 meters wide. Depth of the room is 10 meters plus two for the projector room.
post #148 of 229
how do the new infitec filters compare to the older ones as far as light loss goes?
post #149 of 229
Thread Starter 
there is a about 40% increase in light out and you not need anymore
to adjust the color.

for the "E" infitec its a option not a must.

donaldk you can post the picture i had send to you here if you like.
post #150 of 229
Originally Posted by W.Mayer View Post

there is a about 40% increase in light out and you not need anymore
to adjust the color.

for the "E" infitec its a option not a must.

donaldk you can post the picture i had send to you here if you like.

Wow that's great to hear, guess I need to start saving up for these and hope they offer it for single chip DLP
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