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The Audyssey Pro Installer Kit Thread (FAQ in post #1) - Page 75

post #2221 of 4422
4/29/12 at 12:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

I'd say that the mic was measuring *something* - what could it have been? Is there anything that would be introducing electomagnetic or RF interference into your laptop and/or measuring system?

Not AFAIK. If there was it'd be interfering with Audyssey too and I don't think that's the case. Operator error is my best guess at this stage.
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post #2222 of 4422
4/29/12 at 12:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by WiWavelength View Post

Actually, the z axis unit of measurement in Keith's waterfall plot is not milliseconds. It is cycles, which are frequency dependent (e.g. 10 cycles at 100 Hz is equivalent to 100 ms, while 10 cycles at 10 kHz is only 1 ms). That different z axis scale is the reason why Keith's waterfall appears wonky in the upper octaves.

AJ

Good grief, that in itself is wonky. Why would a frequency-dependent z-axis be helpful? Still, the sound decays and comes back. And the <400Hz region looks chopped off.
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post #2223 of 4422
4/29/12 at 12:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Not AFAIK. If there was it'd be interfering with Audyssey too and I don't think that's the case. Operator error is my best guess at this stage.

You were blowing a dog whistle??
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post #2224 of 4422
4/29/12 at 12:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^

can't agree more... imo/ime, it's a very rare situation where crossing any lower than 80hz is beneficial...

I'm made quite a few posts in the Audyssey thread about a month or so ago about using lower crossovers. My mains play into the 30s and things sounded much better running them full. 80hz seemed easy to localize and had too much bass.

More measurements and time looking into it and I think it was simply the sub running a couple db hot compared to the bass I get running mains full range. So I'm now back to 80hz with the sub level dropped two db. I still need to do more listening and measuring with Dynamic EQ to see if the bass boost from that causes localization issues. Having the sub a couple db hot and then adding on a few more db makes the sub much easier to localize at 80hz.
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post #2225 of 4422
4/29/12 at 12:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

You were blowing a dog whistle??

Are you not supposed to do that while measuring?
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post #2226 of 4422
4/29/12 at 12:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Good grief, that in itself is wonky. Why would a frequency-dependent z-axis be helpful? Still, the sound decays and comes back. And the <400Hz region looks chopped off.

So am I using a wrong setting or something?
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post #2227 of 4422
4/29/12 at 12:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Still, the sound decays and comes back.

At 10 kHz, the total time difference between 0 cycles and 15 cycles is only 1.5 ms. So, the return after the decay occurs within a few tenths of a millisecond. It is likely just a very early reflection, potentially even diffraction from the speaker cabinet itself.

Keith should be able to change the z axis scale to milliseconds, probably even recalculate with the current data to produce a more traditional waterfall plot.

AJ
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post #2228 of 4422
4/29/12 at 12:47pm
I know REW has the capability to create an array of graphs from one measurement file. Does OM operator the same?
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post #2229 of 4422
4/30/12 at 8:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

I know REW has the capability to create an array of graphs from one measurement file. Does OM operator the same?

Dunno, Jeff. I had a look this morning at the waterfalls and there seems to be no option that makes a graph that looks anything like the ones I usually see. Maybe someone with OM who actually knows what they are doing could advise me?
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post #2230 of 4422
4/30/12 at 8:06am
Just for interest, here is an OmniMic graph from the MLP, with Audyssey on and with Audyssey off.

Audyssey ON:


Audyssey OFF:
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post #2231 of 4422
4/30/12 at 12:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Dunno, Jeff. I had a look this morning at the waterfalls and there seems to be no option that makes a graph that looks anything like the ones I usually see. Maybe someone with OM who actually knows what they are doing could advise me?



http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/OmniMic/hs17.htm

AJ
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post #2232 of 4422
4/30/12 at 2:41pm
Seconds, as opposed to cycles. Makes more sense. But this one rings on and on at 1k ...

Jeff
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post #2233 of 4422
4/30/12 at 3:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

But this one rings on and on at 1k ...

Note the time scale; it ranges only 0-7 ms. You are likely mentally comparing this waterfall plot to those that extend into the hundreds of milliseconds. If this plot were extended out to 300 ms, that ringing at 1 kHz would completely decay by 25 ms.

AJ
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post #2234 of 4422
4/30/12 at 5:56pm
How does the Pro kit interact with a Denon 4310 (with MultiEQ XT) and an SVS AS-EQ1?
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post #2235 of 4422
4/30/12 at 7:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbarach View Post

How does the Pro kit interact with a Denon 4310 (with MultiEQ XT) and an SVS AS-EQ1?

The AS-EQ1 equalizes the sub(s) first, and independently. When you run the Pro calibration subsequently, MultEQ XT blends the already-calibrated sub(s) with the rest of the system. I had a similar setup, a 4308 with the AS-EQ1, and the calibration result was excellent.
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post #2236 of 4422
5/1/12 at 2:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by WiWavelength View Post

Note the time scale; it ranges only 0-7 ms. You are likely mentally comparing this waterfall plot to those that extend into the hundreds of milliseconds. If this plot were extended out to 300 ms, that ringing at 1 kHz would completely decay by 25 ms.

AJ

Alrighty, and I now notice it's more of an rt30 scale. Bur still above 1k decays very fast and so much quicker than 1k that I have to wonder about the acoustics of the room AND what could be causing the drastically uneven decay rates.

Jeff
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post #2237 of 4422
5/1/12 at 4:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Alrighty, and I now notice it's more of an rt30 scale. Bur still above 1k decays very fast and so much quicker than 1k that I have to wonder about the acoustics of the room AND what could be causing the drastically uneven decay rates.

Jeff

I think you're likely misinterpreting the graph, Jeff. The room is fine - there is no problem at all in the upper frequencies - imaging is excellent and stable, clarity is amazing etc.

The graph I made was this one (from the manual):

"Toneburst Energy Storage" shows the effect that would occur if the loudspeaker were driven by a short toneburst of energy concentrated near each test frequency. The speaker output would ideally end after the toneburst ended, but realworld devices will continue to ring as the energy stored within dies out. This is similar to a test devised by Linkwitz. The Toneburst Energy Storage data in OmniMic is calculated from a measured impulse response, and the number of applied toneburst cycles can be selected using a control at the bottom right. Like the CSD waterfall, the impulse response can be windowed to remove effects of reflections.



That is different from the usual waterfall graph. I believe the graph you are thinking of is the Cumulative Spectral Decay Graph. Again, from the manual:

A "Cumulative Spectral Decay", or "CSD" waterfall shows a series of time slices approximately indicating the contribution to the total response that is made after the time instant shown in the axis going into the screen. When a loudspeaker is driven with an electrical impulse, the pressure it creates should ideally also represent a pressure impulse. But loudspeaker drivers aren't ideal so they also generate resonances -- pressure waves that decay more slowly at various frequencies. The effects of echoes can hide the resonances in a CSD waterfall, but at higher frequencies the echoes can be removed by "Windowing" the calculation to only include the part of the Impulse Response that occurs before the first reflection (from a surface such as a wall or furniture) reaches the OmniMic. Careful choice of positioning within the Impulse Response is critical, because the effects of any reflections included within the selected portion will contaminate all regions of the graph up to that point on the time axis. Below some frequency determined by where the Impulse Response is clicked and how far along on the time (depth) axis a trace exists, meaningful calculation cannot be done. The graph curve is chopped off at those points on the waterfall display.

The CSD waterfall calculation process introduces some spurious side effects, so the graph should be viewed in general terms. Exact values along the curves of waterfalls are not usually reliable, rather, the positions and sizes of decaying forward-approaching ridges on the graph indicate frequency and relative intensities of resonances.



It's the CSD that measures in ms along the right side axis. The other graph is a red herring and seems to be designed for speaker manufacturers.

I think in both cases it is important to take into account the considerable likelihood that I am doing something wrong
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post #2238 of 4422
5/1/12 at 5:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post


A "Cumulative Spectral Decay", or "CSD" waterfall shows a series of time slices approximately indicating the contribution to the total response that is made after the time instant shown in the axis going into the screen. When a loudspeaker is driven with an electrical impulse, the pressure it creates should ideally also represent a pressure impulse. But loudspeaker drivers aren't ideal so they also generate resonances -- pressure waves that decay more slowly at various frequencies. The effects of echoes can hide the resonances in a CSD waterfall, but at higher frequencies the echoes can be removed by "Windowing" the calculation to only include the part of the Impulse Response that occurs before the first reflection (from a surface such as a wall or furniture) reaches the OmniMic. Careful choice of positioning within the Impulse Response is critical, because the effects of any reflections included within the selected portion will contaminate all regions of the graph up to that point on the time axis. Below some frequency determined by where the Impulse Response is clicked and how far along on the time (depth) axis a trace exists, meaningful calculation cannot be done. The graph curve is chopped off at those points on the waterfall display.

The CSD waterfall calculation process introduces some spurious side effects, so the graph should be viewed in general terms. Exact values along the curves of waterfalls are not usually reliable, rather, the positions and sizes of decaying forward-approaching ridges on the graph indicate frequency and relative intensities of resonances.



It's the CSD that measures in ms along the right side axis. The other graph is a red herring and seems to be designed for speaker manufacturers.

I think in both cases it is important to take into account the considerable likelihood that I am doing something wrong

Keith,

I don't know what to suggest on your OM measurement/graph. For me to get anything from it I would need decays shown in hundreds of milliseconds.

My last comments were on this one from Parts Express. While I could be misinterpreting it as well, the 1KHz ringing seems odd. And for everything else to drop 25dB in 3ms also seems odd. I have to wonder what they measured.

Jeff
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post #2239 of 4422
5/1/12 at 9:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

I don't know what to suggest on your OM measurement/graph. For me to get anything from it I would need decays shown in hundreds of milliseconds.

My last comments were on this one from Parts Express. While I could be misinterpreting it as well, the 1KHz ringing seems odd. And for everything else to drop 25dB in 3ms also seems odd. I have to wonder what they measured.

The OmniMic example plots are not measuring room acoustics. Judging by the limited time scale and low frequency exclusion, they are relatively closely mic'd, heavily windowed measurements assessing just loudspeaker performance.

For a similar example from Kal's review of an Aerial Acoustics floor stander, see this Stereophile graph:



http://www.stereophile.com/content/a...r-measurements

AJ
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post #2240 of 4422
5/1/12 at 10:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Keith,

I don't know what to suggest on your OM measurement/graph. For me to get anything from it I would need decays shown in hundreds of milliseconds.

My last comments were on this one from Parts Express. While I could be misinterpreting it as well, the 1KHz ringing seems odd. And for everything else to drop 25dB in 3ms also seems odd. I have to wonder what they measured.

Jeff

I'm the last person to ask, Jeff My No 1 suspect is me. User error. I have abandoned waterfalls for the time being until I get some better idea of how to use them with OM.

In fact, I have now done about 6 Pro calibrations, mainly experimenting with mic positions around the MLP and I now have a superb result. It is the best I have ever heard my room sound. Detail is staggering, clarity is amazing, soundstaging is incredible - my room seems bigger than it is, the sound is entirely detached from the speakers, the bass is tight and controlled and stops and starts on a dime. I am currently a very happy bunny. So much so, I am ceasing doing measurements and calibrations for a while now and am just going to enjoy some movies for a while.

TOW, have you seen/heard MI, Ghost Protocol? The sound is fabulous - among the very best I have heard. And the movie is delightfully insane too, with a lovely streak of self-deprecating humour (qv the scene where Hunt receives his instructions which will, as always, self destruct in 5 seconds.... and many more similar scenes). Brad Bird has done himself proud - and I think the sound design is by Gary Lydstrom, who worked with Bird on The Incredibles and Ratatouille, two of my favourite movies for sound.
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post #2241 of 4422
5/1/12 at 11:12am
Yes, go enjoy the results of your wise purchases and hard work!

Got "Ghost" on the list for the next round ... I have Ratatouille and will add The Incredibles to the list.
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post #2242 of 4422
5/1/12 at 11:32am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

...I have now done about 6 Pro calibrations, mainly experimenting with mic positions around the MLP and I now have a superb result. It is the best I have ever heard my room sound. Detail is staggering, clarity is amazing, soundstaging is incredible - my room seems bigger than it is, the sound is entirely detached from the speakers, the bass is tight and controlled and stops and starts on a dime. I am currently a very happy bunny. So much so, I am ceasing doing measurements and calibrations for a while now and am just going to enjoy some movies for a while...

+1!!
Quote:


...sound design is by Gary Lydstrom, who worked with Bird on The Incredibles and Ratatouille, two of my favourite movies for sound.

I've noticed many animation productions feature better SQ than many live actor films, likely because it enhances suspension of disbelief which is at a disadvantage with "cartoons".
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post #2243 of 4422
5/1/12 at 12:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Yes, go enjoy the results of your wise purchases and hard work!

Got "Ghost" on the list for the next round ... I have Ratatouille and will add The Incredibles to the list.

The Incredibles is terrific - both the movie and the sound. You can see the direct link between Bird/Lydstrom's work on it morphing into 'Ghost'. I love what those guys are doing.
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post #2244 of 4422
5/1/12 at 12:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

+1!!

I've noticed many animation productions feature better SQ than many live actor films, likely because it enhances suspension of disbelief which is at a disadvantage with "cartoons".

Yes, this is true. With animations the creators are not constrained in any way by 'reality' and it gives them a freer hand I think. Certainly the Pixar animations all seem to have fabulous sound - Wall-E, Ratatouille, The Incredibles, Up - all spring to mind immediately. And the Shorts that Pixar have produced, eg Lifted, are amazing too. I think they have just released a BD of their Shorts, which I must look out for.
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post #2245 of 4422
5/1/12 at 2:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

It is the best I have ever heard my room sound. Detail is staggering, clarity is amazing, soundstaging is incredible - my room seems bigger than it is, the sound is entirely detached from the speakers, the bass is tight and controlled and stops and starts on a dime. I am currently a very happy bunny. So much so, I am ceasing doing measurements and calibrations for a while now and am just going to enjoy some movies for a while.

just want to give you a pat on the back keith... you are amoungst the small percentage of people who actually stuck with an issue, and saw it through to the end, even though i would imagine you got more than a little frustrated along the way...

you got rewarded for that persistence, judging by your commentary...
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post #2246 of 4422
5/1/12 at 3:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post


I'm the last person to ask, Jeff My No 1 suspect is me. User error. I have abandoned waterfalls for the time being until I get some better idea of how to use them with OM.

In fact, I have now done about 6 Pro calibrations, mainly experimenting with mic positions around the MLP and I now have a superb result. It is the best I have ever heard my room sound. Detail is staggering, clarity is amazing, soundstaging is incredible - my room seems bigger than it is, the sound is entirely detached from the speakers, the bass is tight and controlled and stops and starts on a dime. I am currently a very happy bunny. So much so, I am ceasing doing measurements and calibrations for a while now and am just going to enjoy some movies for a while.

TOW, have you seen/heard MI, Ghost Protocol? The sound is fabulous - among the very best I have heard. And the movie is delightfully insane too, with a lovely streak of self-deprecating humour (qv the scene where Hunt receives his instructions which will, as always, self destruct in 5 seconds.... and many more similar scenes). Brad Bird has done himself proud - and I think the sound design is by Gary Lydstrom, who worked with Bird on The Incredibles and Ratatouille, two of my favourite movies for sound.

Might be nice to document your path to audio nirvana with Audyssey Pro in the FAQ .
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post #2247 of 4422
5/1/12 at 3:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

TOW, have you seen/heard MI, Ghost Protocol?

Keith, just for your reference, the opening scene of MI4 starts right away in Budapest with an arial shot above our Parliament Building and then continues with another arial shot above Eastern Railway Terminal. Now in that scene on the left side there is a clock tower that is not there in reality. It's just a result of creative minds in Hollywood, though I have to admit it looks nice!!

Sound is perfect!

P.S. Seems Budapest has become very popular in Hollywood coz now Bruce Willis and crew are here for a couple of weeks causing traffic jams and road blocks while shooting Die Hard5. Stay tuned! John McClane is gonna have another hard day for sure!!!
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post #2248 of 4422
5/1/12 at 3:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

John McClane is gonna have another hard day for sure!!!

Yippi-kay-ay!
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post #2249 of 4422
5/1/12 at 4:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

In fact, I have now done about 6 Pro calibrations, mainly experimenting with mic positions around the MLP and I now have a superb result. It is the best I have ever heard my room sound. Detail is staggering, clarity is amazing, soundstaging is incredible - my room seems bigger than it is, the sound is entirely detached from the speakers, the bass is tight and controlled and stops and starts on a dime. I am currently a very happy bunny. So much so, I am ceasing doing measurements and calibrations for a while now and am just going to enjoy some movies for a while.

Hi Keith,

May I ask what Mic positions worked best for you please?

Regards,

Mathew.
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post #2250 of 4422
5/1/12 at 4:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

just want to give you a pat on the back keith... you are amoungst the small percentage of people who actually stuck with an issue, and saw it through to the end, even though i would imagine you got more than a little frustrated along the way...

you got rewarded for that persistence, judging by your commentary...

Thanks. Chris. And thanks for all your help along the way too.
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