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The Audyssey Pro Installer Kit Thread (FAQ in post #1) - Page 76

post #2251 of 5258
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmschnur View Post

Might be nice to document your path to audio nirvana with Audyssey Pro in the FAQ .

It might be worth mentioning that Pro is the next step - other than that I think it's probably too advanced for the FAQ, which is primarily aimed at newcomers to Audyssey. I'll have a think...
post #2252 of 5258
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Keith, just for your reference, the opening scene of MI4 starts right away in Budapest with an arial shot above our Parliament Building and then continues with another arial shot above Eastern Railway Terminal. Now in that scene on the left side there is a clock tower that is not there in reality. It's just a result of creative minds in Hollywood, though I have to admit it looks nice!!

I did think of you when I saw the movie start. As you know, I have never been to Budapest (yet) so I didn't know about the clock tower. Very cleverly inserted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post


P.S. Seems Budapest has become very popular in Hollywood coz now Bruce Willis and crew are here for a couple of weeks causing traffic jams and road blocks while shooting Die Hard5. Stay tuned! John McClane is gonna have another hard day for sure!!!

I can't wait! I love those movies Yipee Kay Aye....
post #2253 of 5258
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Yippi-kay-ay!

Yet another outbreak of Greatminditis
post #2254 of 5258
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjf_uk View Post


Hi Keith,

May I ask what Mic positions worked best for you please?

Regards,

Mathew.

Yes, Keith, since you have experimented with different calibrations and arrived at what sounds best to you, please share what changes to your listening positions and techniques helped you reach Nirvana.
post #2255 of 5258
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjf_uk View Post

Hi Keith,

May I ask what Mic positions worked best for you please?

I settled on a pattern very biased towards my MLP. My best result was with 12 positions. I took the first at the MLP of course, and then 2 and 3 were to the left of the MLP spaced about 18 inches apart. This puts 3 in the rear half centre of the other chair. I then took 4, 5 and 6 in front of those. 7 and 8 were either side of MLP and slightly in front of it. 9 was between MLP and 6. 10, 11 and 12 were all close around MLP, wherever I could fit them in. They would be quite close to MLP - maybe only 6 inch spacings. So of the 12 positions, most were tight around MLP. This gives a great result for MLP, but as the graphs I posted yesterday show, a poor result for the second chair. This doesn't worry me though as MLP is my main priority.

When I have recovered from all this testing and measuring, I aim to do a run where I ignore the second chair altogether and just make 12 measurements all around the MLP to see what kind of result that gives me. Being able to save and reload the measurements with Pro makes this sort of experimentation really easy, with the knowledge that if the new method gives a poor result I can go back to my best without problem. A great advantage of Pro in it itself.
post #2256 of 5258
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Yes, Keith, since you have experimented with different calibrations and arrived at what sounds best to you, please share what changes to your listening positions and techniques helped you reach Nirvana.

Mainly being able to take more than the 8 of XT32 I think. Plus clustering them around the MLP, because I don't really worry about the other chair in my room at all. Using 12 measurements, in my small space, gave me the best result. 8 was not nearly as good, 15 was too many and may have actually caused a worse result, although at best it made no difference from using 12. Despite the conventional wisdom of spreading the mic positions throughout the listening area, my best result so far has definitely been with a big bias to MLP. Of course, for those who want to create a good sound for a larger number of people, that advice stands. As I just remarked to mjf, when I have gotten over all this measuring malarkey, and actually listened to some movies, I intend to do a run where all the mic positions are around the MLP. I know Markus was a big fan of that method and for a room where mostly it is one person listening, or one person plus one who isn't all that bothered, it may well be the way to go.
post #2257 of 5258
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Mainly being able to take more than the 8 of XT32 I think. Plus clustering them around the MLP, because I don't really worry about the other chair in my room at all. Using 12 measurements, in my small space, gave me the best result. 8 was not nearly as good, 15 was too many and may have actually caused a worse result, although at best it made no difference from using 12. Despite the conventional wisdom of spreading the mic positions throughout the listening area, my best result so far has definitely been with a big bias to MLP. Of course, for those who want to create a good sound for a larger number of people, that advice stands. As I just remarked to mjf, when I have gotten over all this measuring malarkey, and actually listened to some movies, I intend to do a run where all the mic positions are around the MLP. I know Markus was a big fan of that method and for a room where mostly it is one person listening, or one person plus one who isn't all that bothered, it may well be the way to go.

Actually, your most recent approach is very similar to mine, which focuses only on the MLP, with measurement points only 12 inches apart. I am pleased with the results.

post #2258 of 5258
Looks like my Lovan center stand won't be shipped until 5/25 at the earliest I might as well stop procrastinating and do my own OmniMic sweep before then, with my powered center stuck in the cabinet and its bass somewhat neutered.

I'll have to rerun the Pro calibration if/when the stand gets here, but at least I can work on the distance and/or sub phase adjustment beforehand with my own setup, with that drop in bass response I have from about 50 to 100 Hz that Audyssey mostly corrected (albeit at a lower db than I'd like). I'd rather have Audyssey and OmniMic tune it than just raise the db level for the subs, and it would be good to get rid of that trough/dip in the subs' bass. I don't think it's quite as deep as Keith's was, but trying his approach should be worthwhile, since I'm not likely to do any sub placement re-adjustment in our room. Besides I don't feel right just 'enjoying' the system while I'm waiting to do a new cal with the center out of the cabinet prison. I don't have enough OCD yet

Meanwhile, since I can't do wides in our room, I'm thinking of picking up a couple of Gem or Gem XLs and popping them on 60" Sanus stands above my Mythos ST fronts as FH for movies. Keith - how is it working out having heights and not sides after the Pro cal? I know it's against the standard Audyssey advice to do heights before wides (which will have to wait for a different listening room), but cie la vie.

Stuart
post #2259 of 5258
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post

Looks like my Lovan center stand won't be shipped until 5/25 at the earliest I might as well stop procrastinating and do my own OmniMic sweep before then, with my powered center stuck in the cabinet and the bass somewhat neutered.

I'll have to rerun the Pro calibration if/when the stand gets here, but at least I can work on the distance and/or sub phase adjustment beforehand with my own setup, with that drop in bass response I have from about 50 to 100 Hz that Audyssey mostly corrected (albeit at a lower db than I'd like). I'd rather have Audyssey and OmniMic tune it than just raise the db level fo the subs, and it would be good to get rid of that trough/dip in the bass. I don't think it's as bad as Keith's was, but trying his approach should be worthwhile, since I'm not likely to do any sub placement adjustment. Besides I don't feel right just 'enjoying' the system while I'm waiting to do a new cal with the center out of the cabinet prison. I don't have enough OCD yet

Meanwhile, since I can't do wides in our room, I'm thinking of picking up a couple of Gem or Gem XLs and popping them on 60" Sanus stands above my Mythos ST fronts. Keith - how is it working out having heights and not sides? I know it's against the standard Audyssey advice, but cie la vie.

Practice makes perfect, Stuart. Too bad about the center stand delay.

BTW, 60" doesn't sound high enough for Heights. I believe the Audyssey recommendation is 45 vertical degrees from the MLP. My Heights, for example, are six inches below my 10 ft ceiling.
post #2260 of 5258
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Practice makes perfect, Stuart. Too bad about the center stand delay.

BTW, 60" doesn't sound high enough for Heights. I believe the Audyssey recommendation is 45 vertical degrees from the MLP. My Heights, for example, are six inches below my 10 ft ceiling.

My thinking exactly.

As for the FH, I've seen that 45 degree angle as a general recommendation, but that angle's going to be tough to get right in our place (maybe more like 30 than 45).

FWIW, there's a thread where at least a few guys didn't do placement near the ceiling (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...g#post21834743), and I was thinking that 60" might be enough, and the Sanus stands would hold the weight of approx. 5 lb Gems easily enough. The one advantage of the Sanus is that you can play with the angle (L/R, but also a little bit up/down) by moving the speakers on a plate.

I can always try it and if I need to look into a ceiling mount, but I'd rather not except as a last resort for logistical reasons in the condo. That assumes heights are useful in the first place, which I haven't thought was that true, but since I'm recalibrating soon anyway, I wanted to see what DSX brought to the table.
post #2261 of 5258
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post


My thinking exactly.

As for the FH, I've seen that 45 degree angle as a general recommendation, but that angle's going to be tough to get right in our place (maybe more like 30 than 45).

FWIW, there's a thread where at least a few guys didn't do placement near the ceiling (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...g#post21834743), and I was thinking that 60" might be enough, and the Sanus stands would hold the weight of approx. 5 lb Gems easily enough. The one advantage of the Sanus is that you can play with the angle (L/R, but also a little bit up/down) by moving the speakers on a plate.

I can always try it and if I need to look into a ceiling mount, but I'd rather not except as a last resort for logistical reasons in the condo. That assumes heights are useful in the first place, which I haven't thought was that true, but since I'm recalibrating soon anyway, I wanted to see what DSX brought to the table.

Worth a try. Heights always pose a problem with cables, holes in the walls, etc.
post #2262 of 5258
Been too busy and misses a lot on this thread, you guys really keep it going.

AJ and Kbarnes, I also have done from 8 to all 32 measurements and found that there was nor benefit (at least in my room) doing all 32 measurements. Now I'm doing this set, which is pretty tight as you mentioned AJ with good results:



sdrucker, I also cannot put my heights at the recommended 60 degree since my ceilings are only 8'. But, they still really add to the experience that I find it very worth while. Just try it and see if it works for you. Hope you get your center stand soon...then you can re-run your calibrations again...
post #2263 of 5258
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post


Worth a try. Heights always pose a problem with cables, holes in the walls, etc.

Yup....since we're looking to sell in the next couple of years, avoiding holes in the walls is a big deal :-).
post #2264 of 5258
Quote:
Originally Posted by cavchameleon View Post

Been too busy and misses a lot on this thread, you guys really keep it going.

AJ and Kbarnes, I also have done from 8 to all 32 measurements and found that there was nor benefit (at least in my room) doing all 32 measurements. Now I'm doing this set, which is pretty tight as you mentioned AJ with good results:

sdrucker, I also cannot put my heights at the recommended 60 degree since my ceilings are only 8'. But, they still really add to the experience that I find it very worth while. Just try it and see if it works for you. Hope you get your center stand soon...then you can re-run your calibrations again...

I do a very similar set in a similar room 12x16x8. The results are good. I am treating the room due to the 16x8,with beneficial results
post #2265 of 5258
Thanks to Keith and others for sharing details of their Mic positions.

I was wondering if you still get the option of Music and Movie on the 5509 after the Pro Calibration has been run?
post #2266 of 5258
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Actually, your most recent approach is very similar to mine, which focuses only on the MLP, with measurement points only 12 inches apart. I am pleased with the results.


That's pretty much the pattern I am going to try next. As you say, my current pattern is very similar and I am questioning the value of the few measurements outside of it. I suspect that the measurements in the other seat may result in a pointless compromise at the MLP.
post #2267 of 5258
Originally posted in the Official Audyssey Thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by tandy1000rl View Post

Study all of page 28 here (page 32 of the pdf).

Thanks for posting that link. In the manual it says this:

"The calibration curve for your microphone is stored on your MultEQ Pro application CD. The absolute sensitivity, including the exact gain of each individual Calibrated Preamplifier, is included in the correction curve, ensuring that the trims reported by MultEQ Pro will result in reference SPL playback level."

This raises a question for me. The calibration curve also includes the exact gain of each individual calibrated preamplifier, OK. But my preamplifier had to be returned to Audyssey. It also didn't have the mic serial number stuck on to it like everyone else's does. So, if I was given a new preamp, then should I not also have been given a new calibration curve to match that new preamp (and the mic) as stated above? You can perhaps understand why my confidence is ebbing slowly away....

Also, what a great manual that is for Denon. There are NO printed instructions at all for the Onkyo 5509/Integra 80.3 and the help in the s/w is wrong. It says, for example, that the preamp needs to be plugged into the Aux 2 Left input on the back of the 5509. It doesn't. It's plugged into the PC Left Input. If anyone follows the instructions, it won't work.

EDIT: Apologies - this would have been better posted in the Pro thread. I will take it there.
post #2268 of 5258
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjf_uk View Post

Thanks to Keith and others for sharing details of their Mic positions.

I was wondering if you still get the option of Music and Movie on the 5509 after the Pro Calibration has been run?

Yes you do.
post #2269 of 5258
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post

My thinking exactly.

As for the FH, I've seen that 45 degree angle as a general recommendation, but that angle's going to be tough to get right in our place (maybe more like 30 than 45).

FWIW, there's a thread where at least a few guys didn't do placement near the ceiling (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...g#post21834743), and I was thinking that 60" might be enough, and the Sanus stands would hold the weight of approx. 5 lb Gems easily enough. The one advantage of the Sanus is that you can play with the angle (L/R, but also a little bit up/down) by moving the speakers on a plate.

I can always try it and if I need to look into a ceiling mount, but I'd rather not except as a last resort for logistical reasons in the condo. That assumes heights are useful in the first place, which I haven't thought was that true, but since I'm recalibrating soon anyway, I wanted to see what DSX brought to the table.

Those placement recommendations are from Audyssey in relation to DSX. I don't use DSX, I use PLIIz which has far less stringent placement guidelines (see Dolby's website). I gave up on DSX because of the way it interferes with the surround channels. DSX derives the height information from the front R & L speakers whereas PLIIz derives it from the surrounds. DSX also decorrelates the surround channels. The overall result, to me, was that DSX over-exaggerates the front soundstage at the expense of the surround channels and actually decreases envelopment as a result. I use dipole surround speakers BTW, so this may have a bearing, as does the room size and all sorts of other considerations, so YMMV for sure.

It may be that for the proper use of DSX you do need to also have wide speakers in place. I don't know, but I do know that after extensive testing, and a lot of guidance from Roger Dressler, I ended up much preferring PLIIz. I still occasionally switch back to DSX for comparison but I remain with PLIIz. Of course, I could not position the height speakers in accordance with Audyssey's recommendations, and this may be a reason why I was not satisfied with the result. I can place the height speakers where Dolby says they need to be. As your position sounds very similar to mine, you may also find that PLIIz is a better solution.

WRT to how Pro has affected the Heights - I can't say it has. I don't really hear any difference wrt to the Heights. Not that it's worse or anything - just not different to pre Pro calibraiton.
post #2270 of 5258
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjf_uk View Post

Thanks to Keith and others for sharing details of their Mic positions.

I was wondering if you still get the option of Music and Movie on the 5509 after the Pro Calibration has been run?

Any edits you have made to the target curve will be applied to both Movie and Music.
post #2271 of 5258
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

This raises a question for me. The calibration curve also includes the exact gain of each individual calibrated preamplifier, OK. But my preamplifier had to be returned to Audyssey. It also didn't have the mic serial number stuck on to it like everyone else's does. So, if I was given a new preamp, then should I not also have been given a new calibration curve to match that new preamp (and the mic) as stated above? You can perhaps understand why my confidence is ebbing slowly away....

Keith, if they were going to replace your preamp/phantom power supply, they probably would have simply done that. Those things can't cost that much, so there must have been another reason they had you return it. Pushing this thinking further, repairing yours would obviate the need for them to have your mic returned and re-calibrated with a new preamp. This speculation is bolstered by the fact that yours does not seem to be serialized suggesting that they had no record of the unit on file which would have allowed them to calculate a new file based on a new preamp that they could have pulled off the shelf. Hence, they repaired yours.

But I could be wrong ...

Jeff
post #2272 of 5258
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Any edits you have made to the target curve will be applied to both Movie and Music.

I've not used Pro on an AVR before, so I thought that choosing one of the three target curves during calibration might over-ride or disable the Music and Movie option. It's good to know that the option is still there though, as the Monitors sound a little too smooth for Music when using the Movie curve.
post #2273 of 5258
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

It might be worth mentioning that Pro is the next step - other than that I think it's probably too advanced for the FAQ, which is primarily aimed at newcomers to Audyssey. I'll have a think...

I agree that Pro stuff does not belong in the FAQ, except maybe a mention of it as a next step, a brief summary of what it does and how to obtain it.

I learned a great deal from this thread. I think the main point is that multiple subs may offer advantages, but they may be much trickier to set up and get in synch than a single sub, and that independent measurements may be key in doing so. That might belong in the FAQ.

Personally, since I am completely satisfied with my single sub, I would have to think long and hard about adding a second one.

And, we all greatly appreciate your persistence and your prolific and informative posts. Thanks! We are really glad that you got to a sound that satisfies you.
post #2274 of 5258
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Keith, if they were going to replace your preamp/phantom power supply, they probably would have simply done that. Those things can't cost that much, so there must have been another reason they had you return it. Pushing this thinking further, repairing yours would obviate the need for them to have your mic returned and re-calibrated with a new preamp. This speculation is bolstered by the fact that yours does not seem to be serialized suggesting that they had no record of the unit on file which would have allowed them to calculate a new file based on a new preamp that they could have pulled off the shelf. Hence, they repaired yours.

But I could be wrong ...

Jeff

It's a reasonable speculation, Jeff and I thank you for it. What gives me reduced confidence in Audyssey is that I could not get a proper answer on this directly from them. I was just told "not to worry". I did ask twice.

What you say makes sense - Luke did tell me that the preamp was "serialised to the mic" even though it doesn't have the mic serial number attached to it, like everyone else's does. Given that the kit was improperly assembled in the first place (no PSU) despite Luke saying that all kits are "triple checked", you can see why this might give me reason to wonder if a) the preamp was ever "serialised to the mic" in the first place, and b) if it was, then why was no mic serial number on it and c) is it all correctly matched as things stand?

You are probably right and all is well - but it would have been reassuring if a proper explanation of the procedure had been forthcoming from them.
post #2275 of 5258
Quote:
Originally Posted by cavchameleon View Post

Been too busy and misses a lot on this thread, you guys really keep it going.

AJ and Kbarnes, I also have done from 8 to all 32 measurements and found that there was nor benefit (at least in my room) doing all 32 measurements. Now I'm doing this set, which is pretty tight as you mentioned AJ with good results:



sdrucker, I also cannot put my heights at the recommended 60 degree since my ceilings are only 8'. But, they still really add to the experience that I find it very worth while. Just try it and see if it works for you. Hope you get your center stand soon...then you can re-run your calibrations again...

Just curious as to why you put the first mike position in the middle of the center cushion and not at the back of it where your ears would normally be. I doubt it makes a huge difference, and we do move around slightly while listening. But, I shoot for where my ears would most likely be as position 1.
post #2276 of 5258
Quote:
Originally Posted by fitzcaraldo215 View Post

I agree that Pro stuff does not belong in the FAQ, except maybe a mention of it as a next step, a brief summary of what it does and how to obtain it.

Agreed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fitzcaraldo215 View Post

I learned a great deal from this thread. I think the main point is that multiple subs may offer advantages, but they may be much trickier to set up and get in synch than a single sub, and that independent measurements may be key in doing so. That might belong in the FAQ.

Good point. I'll have a look to see if there is an obvious place to slip the info in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fitzcaraldo215 View Post

Personally, since I am completely satisfied with my single sub, I would have to think long and hard about adding a second one.

Yes indeed. Ironically, the main reason I added a second sub was to smooth out the in-room response - yet Pro did the opposite and gave me a close to 30 dB dip until I messed with the phase and distances.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fitzcaraldo215 View Post

And, we all greatly appreciate your persistence and your prolific and informative posts. Thanks! We are really glad that you got to a sound that satisfies you.

Thanks Fitz. I appreciate all the support and encouragement from the guys here, you included of course.
post #2277 of 5258
Quote:
Originally Posted by fitzcaraldo215 View Post

and, we all greatly appreciate your persistence and your prolific and informative posts. Thanks! We are really glad that you got to a sound that satisfies you.

+1
post #2278 of 5258
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjf_uk View Post

I've not used Pro on an AVR before, so I thought that choosing one of the three target curves during calibration might over-ride or disable the Music and Movie option. It's good to know that the option is still there though, as the Monitors sound a little too smooth for Music when using the Movie curve.

The target curves choices are in the Pro software and are "starting points." Once the calibration is loaded, the receiver/processor controls the Movie/Music options.

Jeff
post #2279 of 5258
Quote:
Originally Posted by fitzcaraldo215 View Post

Just curious as to why you put the first mike position in the middle of the center cushion and not at the back of it where your ears would normally be. I doubt it makes a huge difference, and we do move around slightly while listening. But, I shoot for where my ears would most likely be as position 1.

The back wall is 2' from the couch back, so I'm just adding more distance - seems to get better results. I also tend to sit up and not laid back to the couch back. But, the results sound pretty much the same.
post #2280 of 5258
Quote:
Originally Posted by fitzcaraldo215 View Post


Personally, since I am completely satisfied with my single sub, I would have to think long and hard about adding a second one.

If you added a second sub, you would not need to think long and hard as to whether or not it was a good decision.

Jeff
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