The Audyssey Pro Installer Kit Thread (FAQ in post #1) - Page 101

+1 to all you said Jeff.

Meantime, while since REW was mentioned here, amid all the bells and whistles it has a neat little Generator that can be easily used to let us hear what we will hear.



As a starting point to verify the bass department select Log Sweep, Start: 10 Hz, End. 200 Hz, Duration: 60 sec (slow enough for a careful listening), Level: to taste:



I believe we are all able to spot variances in level (or call it loudness) while the sweep slowly advances. When I followed Mark Seaton's and Craig John's method of sub distance adjustment to flatten out the crossover splice, I used this method to cross check the results BY EAR!!!. After a bit of iteration of the original sub distance set by Audyssey I could clearly hear a smooth (read: constant level) of the test sweep as it went through the crossover region (in my case at around 80 Hz). With the original Audyssey sub distance there was an audible level drop definitely detectable by ear.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating!

Why, Feri, that almost sounds like a criticism.

As you say Jeff. "almost". Raw material good, but putting a little spice on the splice makes it's taste to be "oh-la-la"!

I'm glad you were able to improve upon already very good results.

Jeff

Got it - thanks Jeff. A great start for the answer to that question.

 

Congratulations on the fine new speakers!

 

WRT the Pro issue of setting the two subs to the same distance and trim level, the issue manifests itself only when you reload a previously-save measurment file and re-calculate the filters (e.g. if you are trying different crossover values).  It's not clear from your post, were you changing the crossovers in Pro and re-calculating?  If yes, then the bug indeed seems to be fixed.

 

It is indeed peculiar that the Pro and non-Pro distances for Sub 2 are so different.  Also, if you adjusted the sub gain lower, why were the resulting Pro trims lower as well?  Once would expect a higher value, no?

That's not been my experience, Jerry. I find that Sub 2 is never set properly and is usually just set to whatever it was before - even on a new calibration (I have never reloaded an old cal). There is clearly an issue with it because the report only shows a result for one sub and IIRC it has the distance set for Sub1 and the level set for sub 2 (as confirmed by the AVP screens).

 

SoM's dilemma is does he trust the XT32 measurement or the Pro measurement for Sub 2. My inclination would be to trust the XT32 one. Best solution is to do the sub distance adjustment trick with independent measuring gear anyway IME.

Pro Kit FAQ section

 

Questions I have identified so far, not in their final order:

 

 

What avr, pre pros are "Pro" capable?

Reordering them ..

j)1. What is the Audyssey Pro Installer Kit?
j)2. What does it cost & where do I buy the Pro Kit?
j)3. What are the differences between the Pro Kit and the Audyssey version that's built into my unit?
j13) Do the results from the Pro Kit depend on the Audyssey version that's built into my unit?
j)11. What is the latest version of the Pro software and where do I get it?
j)10. Are there any known issues/bugs in the Pro software?
j12) Can I use the Pro Kit to help set up my system prior to calibration?
j)8. How do I get started?
j)7. How do I connect the kit to my AVR or AVP?
j)9. How do I save my measurements for future use?
j)4. How do I edit the target curve, and why would I want to?
j)6. What are the 'Target Sound Options'?

IMHO ...

IIRC, you are the only one who has reported this particular behavior, Keith. Very odd indeed, because I have never had an issue with Sub2 on the first calculation, only on a re-load.

Good one. Added. Thanks.

LOL. Thanks SoM. 

 

Yes, a lot of effort to get new speakers 'just so' but well worth it as you say. Be interested in further reports...

 

The Pro FAQ section should be ready early next week for Jerry (who has kindly offered to fact-check it for me) and incorporated into the FAQ by the end of next week. Hopefully.

 

Although I still have my new pattern generator and the brand new Calman 5 software to play with yet.... another steep learning curve I bet ;)

 

 

Much better. Thanks Jeff...

 

Keep 'em coming, guys...

Yes you are correct. It may be Onkyo specific or 5509 specific of course. I'm the only one here regularly who has a 5509 (mainly due to them not being sold in the US!). But I can repeat it every time. It's no big deal because I adjust my sub distances manually with OmniMic after the cal anyway.

 

And of course, SoM is now reporting a sub 2 anomaly on a new cal...

Keith--what about covering independent verification of Audyssey calibration, at least for addressing < 200 Hz sub EQ, as an 'advanced' topic? Some guidance for calibration learners about curve smoothing settings (understanding that there's some difference of opinion here about what's sensitive enough) and suggested AVR surround settings might be useful, at the very least, so that they don't have to hunt through multiple threads.

It has always worked for me on new calibrations where I use the level matching screen.

 

SoM,

 

Regarding not re-loading the measurement file when selecting different crossovers, this is not exactly correct.  According to the recent discussion with Chris on Ask Audyssey (with Markus), Chris acknowledged that the filters are not recalculated, but that a different value for the high-pass filter was being applied.  Chris' words:

 

"Yes, Pro applies the HP filter before loading on the AVR. That's why you need to go back to that page and make the change if you decide to use a different frequency for the crossover.

This HP filter is also applied in the consumer version. Keep in mind that it's a highpass filter applied to the filter and not to the signal. It's applied to "prepare" the response for the crossover filters that will be applied outside of Audyssey."

 

The entire thread is here:  Does MultEQ optimize the crossover region between satellite speakers and subwoofer?.

 

So, if you are changing the crossovers without re-loading the measurement file in Pro, there might still be some room for improvement for your new speakers...   :)

 

@Keith:  as soon as we get this sorted out, and there is agreement, this could be a useful item in the FAQ.

Sure thing - but someone will need to give me a little assistance on those topics as I am not confident enough to write them myself in an authoritative manner.

MultEQ corrects for the common crossover slope mismatch error by imposing a HPF to the speaker filter:

Then it has to be an issue with the 5509. 

 

But it's still the case that the software reports it wrongly in the certificate. For a start it only graphs what it calls the 'Main Subwoofer' which is odd when you have two subs, albeit EQ'd as one - but if you look at the text underneath the graph it gives the distance and trim (why just one figure for each when you have two subs is the obvious question?) - what it gives me here is the distance for Sub 1 (as verified in the 5509 menus) and the trim for Sub 2. IOW, it's hopeless. Do you not get the same for distance and trim?

 

You’re not kidding!  I'd like to see the definitive answer in one easily-accessible place!

 

Stuart, if you are talking about the process of adjusting sub distances post-calibration to improve the crossover splice, I'm not sure this belongs in a Pro-specific FAQ.  The same process could be applied after a non-Pro calibration.  I agree that a write-up on the theory, and how to do it, would be useful--I'm just questioning whether it belongs in the Pro FAQ.

 

Same goes for curve-smoothing recommendations.  Adjusting smoothing settings is not a feature of Pro.

 

And I'm not sure what you mean by the third recommendation, i.e. the AVR suggested surround settings.  Can you elaborate WRT what you are recommending?

Yes, I think we mentioned this before. It's not really relevant to Pro as such but it's too advanced for the general FAQ. I could include it in the Pro FAQ which, by definition and design, will be more for the advanced user anyway.

 

Yes, I recall that conversation.  IMHO, we need to approach this in steps, the first one being a conprehensive FAQ covering the advantages and operational differences of the Pro kit.  Once that is nailed down, I think there is another whole area that we could address as a team, and that is "Pre-calibration optimimization and post-calibration results assessment/adjustments" (hopefully we can find a less awkward title).

 

Perhaps I have too much time on my hands?

No, you're just very thorough:). And whether it belongs in a Pro FAQ as such, it's something that should be addressed as a team because we may have divergent opinions about where this might go. In your own words, we're in "uncharted waters" IIRC;).

To your point: my initial thought was that addressing post-calibration results assessment/adjustment, while not strictly related to Pro per se, is something that is a) more advanced than the average consumer Audyssey calibrator may be familiar with, particularly someone coming from an older Audyssey and/or non-Audssey AVR and b) a logical "next step" on the learning curve for the user seeking to optmize their system.

Not only does Pro offer up to 32 measurement positions, but the Target Curve Editor, choice of crossovers, save/load of measurements (imperfect as it is, as we know, WRT subs), choice of mid-range compensation curves etc. are part of the package. A user looking for those features is much more likely to want to further tweak their system than a "set and forget" person working with the conventional/consumer Audyssey release. Hence an "advanced" FAQ is a more appropriate place to have a pre/post-calibration optimization and assessment thread than an FAQ that's a "how to" for someone learning how to use Audyssey in the first place.

And by tweaking, I mean a combination of Target Curve editing, distance/delay/phase adjustments at the crossover/splice region, exploration of crossovers, repositioning of speakers, all accompanied by remeasurement as as I think we can agree that the "After" Audyssey charts are too coarse at 1/6 smoothing to be useful.

Hence having a flow chart of how to proceed, and understanding the issues involved in using a particular level of smoothing, is essential for the learning using Pro.

Also, I was thinking of my own experience in the past four months. Once ccotenj pushed me into the measurement rabbithole , I found myself going through at least four different threads (here, Audyssey, OmniMic, and the 4311) to wrap my head around the most rigorous way to "trust but verify". Frankly, I would have been lost without Keith's trek in finding his phase issue to point the way. So collect another debt of thanks, Keith:D

Thinking about what speakers & sub combination to test, distance and/or phase adustments, what smoothing level, the kind of pseudo-noise signals and channels to use, and what AVR surround setting (I originally used Multichannel Stereo and PLII Music because I thought they were most appropriate for my listening, before I realized that Stereo and in some cases PLII Cinema were better options) took many hours that would have been shortened if we had a comprehensive assessment FAQ. I hope that others here, as well as newbies coming to the Pro thread as the 4520 and newer AVRs hit the market, could make use of it as well.

That's a long winded way of saying that not everyone has the level of intuition and experience, hence it has value...but regardless of whether we do it now or in the future, I'm glad we can at least put it on the agenda.