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post #3211 of 5258
Hi Jerry,

The improved graph for the subs, even without distance tweaks, is really intriguing. So too is the significantly longer processing time on the 4520. Unfortunately, it's very difficult to make any conclusion and only "Ask Audyssey" would most likely know the answers.

In any case, I'm curious as to whether you did any listening tests. Did you detect any improvement, particularly in the bass?

Mark
post #3212 of 5258
Quote:
Originally Posted by streetsmart88 View Post

Hi Jerry,
The improved graph for the subs, even without distance tweaks, is really intriguing. So too is the significantly longer processing time on the 4520. Unfortunately, it's very difficult to make any conclusion and only "Ask Audyssey" would most likely know the answers.
In any case, I'm curious as to whether you did any listening tests. Did you detect any improvement, particularly in the bass?
Mark

 

Too early to tell, Mark, I just finished setting it up late yesterday, and spent most of the evening watching the debate.  The candidates sounded pretty good, though...  :)

 

I intend to take both issues to Ask Audyssey, so'll see what they have to say.

post #3213 of 5258
Quote:
Originally Posted by streetsmart88 View Post


In any case, I'm curious as to whether you did any listening tests. Did you detect any improvement, particularly in the bass?
Mark

 

Mark,

 

Here are the waterfall graphs (blue=4311 with bass tweaks, green=4520 with default sub distances):

 

 

 

 

I think the 4520 looks somewhat better.  After doing some bass-heavy music listening, the bass sounds good--tight, well defined, and perhaps more of it than with the 4311 (could be the slightly higher response in the 60Hz range).  The 4311 sounded good, and the 4520 sounds at least as good.  If anything, the integration with the main speakers seems to be smoother. 

post #3214 of 5258
Very nice!

That is one of the smoothest FR's I've ever seen and an absolutely wonderful waterfall.

Since you don't seem to have a resonance peak going near 500ms on the 4520, it'd be nice to see a 20-300 (or due to your sub output and your acoustical room size/combined room even a 10-300) set to 400ms for more data/detail.

You should be very proud of this.

Once you get those reflections handled in the specular region, you'll really have a system to be envious of and if I weren't in OH and so far away, I'd be honored to take a listen. wink.gif

--J
post #3215 of 5258
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by streetsmart88 View Post

Hi Jerry,
The improved graph for the subs, even without distance tweaks, is really intriguing. So too is the significantly longer processing time on the 4520. Unfortunately, it's very difficult to make any conclusion and only "Ask Audyssey" would most likely know the answers.
In any case, I'm curious as to whether you did any listening tests. Did you detect any improvement, particularly in the bass?
Mark

Jerry,
I doubt this matters, but there's a new 'feature' on the 4520 called bass sync:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1368799/when-do-the-2013-denons-come-out-any-new-features-we-should-expect/1800#post_22413685

It supposedly adjusts LFE delay relative to mains between 0 and 16 ms (with assumedly 0 as the default). Do you still have 0 ms as the default after the Pro calibration?
post #3216 of 5258
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by streetsmart88 View Post

Hi Jerry,
The improved graph for the subs, even without distance tweaks, is really intriguing. So too is the significantly longer processing time on the 4520. Unfortunately, it's very difficult to make any conclusion and only "Ask Audyssey" would most likely know the answers.
In any case, I'm curious as to whether you did any listening tests. Did you detect any improvement, particularly in the bass?
Mark

Jerry,
I doubt this matters, but there's a new 'feature' on the 4520 called bass sync:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1368799/when-do-the-2013-denons-come-out-any-new-features-we-should-expect/1800#post_22413685

It supposedly adjusts LFE delay relative to mains between 0 and 16 ms (with assumedly 0 as the default). Do you still have 0 ms as the default after the Pro calibration?

That's good to know and would be good to try.

I'd really like to see if/how it affects the group delay. Would you mind looking at this in REW, Jerry? I can explain how and what you're looking for if this feature works with Audyssey/Pro and seems to make a difference. Don't worry, it's real simple. wink.gif

--J
post #3217 of 5258
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

I have done many Pro calibrations on the 4311 with this same sub configuration, and the distance for Sub2 has always been suspect.  

 

 

Not just on a reload Jerry either. On my Onkyo 5509 it is*always* suspect even on a totally new cal.

 

 

Quote:

So, we have an incorrect distance calculation for the subs using Pro on the 4311, which requires a post-calibration tweak to make things right.  And we have a “perfect” result for the subs using Pro on the 4520.  We know that there have been all sorts of issues with sub distances on Pro when re-loading measurements.  Have I uncovered yet another bug in Pro with regards to calibrating multiple subs?  Perhaps a bug that has been fixed in updated firmware on the 4520?

 

Is this worth a report to Ask Audyssey?

 

Great report, Jerry with fascinating results. I'd say it was definitely worth reporting to Audyssey - especially with the charts etc to give credibility to your findings.

 

One thing that seems to emerge clearly is that a Pro calibration is, to some extent or other, dependent on the implementation of Pro in the partnered AVP/AVR. Whether this is something we should just accept or whether Pro should give consistent results regardless of the basic platform it's used on, I don't know. It certainly makes discussion more difficult because everyone with a different basic platform may well get different results to everyone with different platforms. 

post #3218 of 5258
Quote:
Originally Posted by jevansoh View Post


That's good to know and would be good to try.
I'd really like to see if/how it affects the group delay. Would you mind looking at this in REW, Jerry? I can explain how and what you're looking for if this feature works with Audyssey/Pro and seems to make a difference. Don't worry, it's real simple. wink.gif
--J

 

Stuart and J, thanks for reminding me of this setting.  I saw it when I was browsing the new menu structure, but I haven't got around to measuring its effect on the bass response curve.  Another new feature that I would like to measure is the Low Frequency Control (LFC) to see its effect.  I will be unlikely to use this feature since I am in a single-family home, but I'm sure the readers over on the 4520 thread would like to see an actual measurement.

post #3219 of 5258
Quote:
Originally Posted by jevansoh View Post


Since you don't seem to have a resonance peak going near 500ms on the 4520, it'd be nice to see a 20-300 (or due to your sub output and your acoustical room size/combined room even a 10-300) set to 400ms for more data/detail.

--J

 

Here it is, J:

 

 

post #3220 of 5258
Hi Jerry. Your 4520 charts look awesome. Your listening tests sound positive too, though the difference is understandably slight. I'm still looking for an excuse to upgrade my 4311 to a 4520. tongue.gif

I'm still curious about the longer processing time for the 4520. Is it crunching more data? I hope Chris K responds soon.
post #3221 of 5258
Quote:
Originally Posted by streetsmart88 View Post

Hi Jerry. Your 4520 charts look awesome. Your listening tests sound positive too, though the difference is understandably slight. I'm still looking for an excuse to upgrade my 4311 to a 4520. tongue.gif

I'm still curious about the longer processing time for the 4520. Is it crunching more data? I hope Chris K responds soon.

 

If it is crunching more data, then that would imply that Pro captures a lot of data which may not be used by all AVP/AVRs which are 'Pro-capable'. I'd like to see more information on that hypothesis. I would, for example, be prepared to change my prepro (5509) to a different make or model if I could be sure that it processed more of the available data in order to deliver a superior calibration. To date I have assumed that a Pro calibration is a Pro calibration, regardless of the underlying platform. It seems this is not the case - unless for some unaccountable reason Denon have reduced the power of the processing chip in the 4250, which would seem odd and unlikely. If a 4520 delivers a better Pro result than my 5509, this is something that would be useful to know. maybe another one to Ask Audyssey??

 

@Jerry - Jerry if you are going to ask Audyssey about the extra crunching time, would you please consider also asking them the question I raise above about potentially different Pro results dependent on the underlying AVP/AVR platform used?  Thanks.

post #3222 of 5258
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

 

If it is crunching more data, then that would imply that Pro captures a lot of data which may not be used by all AVP/AVRs which are 'Pro-capable'. I'd like to see more information on that hypothesis. I would, for example, be prepared to change my prepro (5509) to a different make or model if I could be sure that it processed more of the available data in order to deliver a superior calibration. To date I have assumed that a Pro calibration is a Pro calibration, regardless of the underlying platform. It seems this is not the case - unless for some unaccountable reason Denon have reduced the power of the processing chip in the 4250, which would seem odd and unlikely. If a 4520 delivers a better Pro result than my 5509, this is something that would be useful to know. maybe another one to Ask Audyssey??

 

@Jerry - Jerry if you are going to ask Audyssey about the extra crunching time, would you please consider also asking them the question I raise above about potentially different Pro results dependent on the underlying AVP/AVR platform used?  Thanks.

 

Let's not rule out a potential firmware issue on the 4520 with regards to the speed of the Serial-to-USB connection.  I will try and craft a query to Audyssey Pro that gets to the bottom of this.  Chris is going to get tired of me real soon....

post #3223 of 5258
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post


Jerry,
I doubt this matters, but there's a new 'feature' on the 4520 called bass sync:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1368799/when-do-the-2013-denons-come-out-any-new-features-we-should-expect/1800#post_22413685
It supposedly adjusts LFE delay relative to mains between 0 and 16 ms (with assumedly 0 as the default). Do you still have 0 ms as the default after the Pro calibration?

 

Stuart and J, looks like the bass sync is not what we probably expected.  The 4520 uses context-sensitive items in the setup menu.  Bass sync is a sub-menu of "Surround Parameters" and this menu option only appears when the audio source is multi-channel.  When using REW, I am using a stereo setting on the AUX1 input, and cannot get the Surround Parameters menu to even appear.  I even tried changing AUX1 to a PLII setting, but still no luck in getting the bass sync option to display.  So, I can't measure it.  Besides, if bass sync changes depending on whether the source is stereo or multi-channel, that wouldn't be desirable, would it?  I'm not going to fool around with this setting any more, unless someone has a good idea on how to measure its effect.

 

Now Audyssey Low Frequency Containment is a different story.  LFC is turned On or Off in the Audio/Audyssey setup menu screen, and when it is on, the aggressiveness of the LFC can be set from 1 to 7.  Check this out:

 

 

Obviously, there is some serious low frequency containment going on here.  For anyone having trouble with the sub bottoming out when playing Tron:Legacy, this is your answer!  The alteration in the frequency response between 180Hz and 300Hz is somewhat concerning.  If the objective is to keep bass within a reasonable level, I would experiment with Audyssey DEQ RLO, or Dynamic Volume, before I would engage LFC, IMHO. 

post #3224 of 5258
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

 

If it is crunching more data, then that would imply that Pro captures a lot of data which may not be used by all AVP/AVRs which are 'Pro-capable'. I'd like to see more information on that hypothesis. I would, for example, be prepared to change my prepro (5509) to a different make or model if I could be sure that it processed more of the available data in order to deliver a superior calibration. To date I have assumed that a Pro calibration is a Pro calibration, regardless of the underlying platform. It seems this is not the case - unless for some unaccountable reason Denon have reduced the power of the processing chip in the 4250, which would seem odd and unlikely. If a 4520 delivers a better Pro result than my 5509, this is something that would be useful to know. maybe another one to Ask Audyssey??

 

@Jerry - Jerry if you are going to ask Audyssey about the extra crunching time, would you please consider also asking them the question I raise above about potentially different Pro results dependent on the underlying AVP/AVR platform used?  Thanks.

 

Let's not rule out a potential firmware issue on the 4520 with regards to the speed of the Serial-to-USB connection.  I will try and craft a query to Audyssey Pro that gets to the bottom of this.  Chris is going to get tired of me real soon....

 

OK - cool. I think one thing we can all say about Chris is that his patience is inexhaustible and his willingness to help boundless. I'm sure he won't get tired of you Jerry :)

post #3225 of 5258
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Let's not rule out a potential firmware issue on the 4520 with regards to the speed of the Serial-to-USB connection.  I will try and craft a query to Audyssey Pro that gets to the bottom of this.  Chris is going to get tired of me real soon....

If the reason for the additional 47 minutes for a Pro calibration is anything but additional data to process, I think I will pass on the 4520.

Mark
post #3226 of 5258
Quote:
Originally Posted by streetsmart88 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Let's not rule out a potential firmware issue on the 4520 with regards to the speed of the Serial-to-USB connection.  I will try and craft a query to Audyssey Pro that gets to the bottom of this.  Chris is going to get tired of me real soon....

If the reason for the additional 47 minutes for a Pro calibration is anything but additional data to process, I think I will pass on the 4520.

Mark

 

And if it IS additional data to process then the rest of us non-owning 4520 guys want to know what's going on, what are we missing and hw much of a Pro calibration depends on the basic platform used!

post #3227 of 5258

Pro FAQ Update.

 

A couple of minor additions.

 

a)1.   What is the Audyssey Pro Installer Kit?

 

Have added more detail to the kit components in the Answer above.

 

c)2.   How do I edit the target curve, and why would I want to?

 

WRT to the above, I have added new section on using the Radio Buttons 1-12 and on saving the work once completed.

post #3228 of 5258
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Pro FAQ Update.

A couple of minor additions.

a)1.   What is the Audyssey Pro Installer Kit?


Have added more detail to the kit components in the Answer above.

c)2.   How do I edit the target curve, and why would I want to?


WRT to the above, I have added new section on using the Radio Buttons 1-12 and on saving the work once completed.

Good additions, Keith!
post #3229 of 5258
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Pro FAQ Update.

A couple of minor additions.

a)1.   What is the Audyssey Pro Installer Kit?


Have added more detail to the kit components in the Answer above.

c)2.   How do I edit the target curve, and why would I want to?


WRT to the above, I have added new section on using the Radio Buttons 1-12 and on saving the work once completed.

Good additions, Keith!

 

Thanks Jerry. As with the other FAQ, I read through it occasionally and discover areas that need additional input or additional clarification. It will always be a work in progress I think.

post #3230 of 5258

I tested out the Pro software today to see if any of the outstanding issues have been fixed.  I figured the Denon 4520 has new firmware, so it was worth a try.

 

- Adding additional measurements to an existing measurement file -- NOT FIXED.

 

- Loading an existing measurement file, re-calculating filters, and saving to the AVR results in incorrect trim and distance values for the subs -- NOT FIXED

 

Somewhat disappointing.....

post #3231 of 5258

Ask Audyssey submission:

 

post #3232 of 5258

Second Ask Audyssey submission:

 

post #3233 of 5258
I don't think this is surprising at all. Luke alluded to fixes that were not yet "active" that would only be so when licensees finalized their firmware. I haven't seen any further announcements on the firmware, so I'd guess that fixes might be coming ....

Perhaps your posts will cause them to be more ... forthcoming. wink.gif

Jeff
post #3234 of 5258
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

I don't think this is surprising at all. Luke alluded to fixes that were not yet "active" that would only be so when licensees finalized their firmware. I haven't seen any further announcements on the firmware, so I'd guess that fixes might be coming ....
Perhaps your posts will cause them to be more ... forthcoming. wink.gif
Jeff

 

Perhaps you are correct, but I was hoping that since the 4520 is new, it would already incorporate the fixes.  I was wrong.

post #3235 of 5258
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Second Ask Audyssey submission:

 

 

The response:

 

post #3236 of 5258
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Ask Audyssey submission:

 

 

post #3237 of 5258
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

I tested out the Pro software today to see if any of the outstanding issues have been fixed.  I figured the Denon 4520 has new firmware, so it was worth a try.

 

- Adding additional measurements to an existing measurement file -- NOT FIXED.

 

- Loading an existing measurement file, re-calculating filters, and saving to the AVR results in incorrect trim and distance values for the subs -- NOT FIXED

 

Somewhat disappointing.....

 

It is disappointing I agree. My overall feelings about Pro were coloured by my initial bad experience when they failed to send me the correct 240v PSU with my kit and then I had to return the preamp and it all got very messy. Luke never properly answered my questions at that time and just told me "not to worry". HST, I am very happy with the results it gives me which is the main thing. I'd be even happier if they fixed the bug with the 2nd sub and also corrected the on-screen help so that it is actually useful.

post #3238 of 5258
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Second Ask Audyssey submission:

 

 

The response:

 

I took a bet with myself that that would be Chris's response.  They don't seem to understand the point. There is definitely a bug in Pro which will not set the 2nd sub up properly - it is repeatable 100% here. That is in addition to the things you have reported. Chris just didn't answer the question you asked AFAICS.

post #3239 of 5258
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Ask Audyssey submission:

 

 

 

Good luck with getting Denon to understand or to fix it Jerry!  Seems like a terrific retrograde step to make the chip *slower* in a newer machine. What's the betting Denon say they haven't?

post #3240 of 5258
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Perhaps you are correct, but I was hoping that since the 4520 is new, it would already incorporate the fixes.  I was wrong.

It's not unusual for known bugs to be folded into the next year's model. My guess is that there is a firmware team that puts code together that goes into production, and then another team that works on bugs. If said bug in a 2012 model isn't fixed by the time the firmware is put to bed in the 2013 model, then it has the bug as well.

Drilling down into your questions about the transfer rate and main/sub splice dips, it's easy to understand how they consider neither of those a bug. Did I miss it or hadn't you asked about the "bug" wrt sub #2 distances and subsequent calibration loadings?

Jeff
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