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post #3811 of 5254
Quote:
Originally Posted by stu54 View Post

So you are saying that the XT32 has many more frequencies that the 14 shown for the manual equalizer. I was under the impression that the XT32 just set the level for the speaker at those 14 frequencies instead of me doing it with REW and my SPL meter. What you are saying is that internally there are more frequency points that the XT32 can use. Now the question for me is whether using the Pro kit would make the XT32 measurements so much better than the supplied calibration mike and it is worth spending the $500 plus license fee to get it.

Find some one in your area with a Pro Kit and spend 150 for a license and have him calibrate your system. I'm in Olympia, WA and I would be happy to do it.
post #3812 of 5254
Queston: loaded my Pro calibration & chosen crossover in my DHC 80.3. I now want to change my crossover so can I use the speaker menu in theoaHC 80.3 to do this? Or, do I have to reload Pro back into the laptop and change it there and then save to the DHC 80.3. Also, I tried to relaod a saved measurement file and how do I open it back up on the laptop?
post #3813 of 5254
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsoko2 View Post

Queston: loaded my Pro calibration & chosen crossover in my DHC 80.3. I now want to change my crossover so can I use the speaker menu in theoaHC 80.3 to do this? Or, do I have to reload Pro back into the laptop and change it there and then save to the DHC 80.3. Also, I tried to relaod a saved measurement file and how do I open it back up on the laptop?

 

To change crossovers you set in Pro, the recommended procedure is to do it within Pro, not in the AVR.  The procedure is:

 

- Load Pro.

- Proceed to the screen where the first measurement is taken.

- Click the button on the bottom of this page to load a measurement file.  Browse to the file you saved.

- Once the file has loaded, click the Next arrow to proceed to the filter calculation.

- When the crossover selection screen is presented, select the new crossovers and save them to the AVR.

 

Note:  there is a known bug in Pro affecting the subwoofer settings when using a re-loaded measurement file.  Before you go through the procedure outlined above, make a note of your sub distances and trims.  After you have selected the new crossovers and saved them to the AVR, check the sub distances and trims.  If they are different from the values you wrote down earlier, manually re-set them to the correct values.

post #3814 of 5254
Quote:
Originally Posted by stu54 View Post

So you are saying that the XT32 has many more frequencies that the 14 shown for the manual equalizer. I was under the impression that the XT32 just set the level for the speaker at those 14 frequencies instead of me doing it with REW and my SPL meter. What you are saying is that internally there are more frequency points that the XT32 can use. Now the question for me is whether using the Pro kit would make the XT32 measurements so much better than the supplied calibration mike and it is worth spending the $500 plus license fee to get it.

Unlike the built-in 14 fixed frequency graphic equalizer, Audyssey affects all frequencies as necessary based on the measurements by using a parametric EQ concept to bring response in line with a target curve. The parametric EQ filters are dynamic in that Audyssey centers them at the frequencies where they are most needed. Audyssey will not say exactly how many of these parametric filters it can use, but it has acknowledged that there are "hundreds". Each filter has a calculated center frequency, magnitude and "Q". It does all these calculations to set up the filters totally automatically to get the flattest response that is closest to the target curve based on the mike measurements. In addition, Audyssey does a lot to improve the time domain response, which the graphic equalizer totally ignores. So, when I say the graphic EQ is bush league, I really mean it, because Audyssey is way, way more sophisticated. The result is far better sound with much less manual tweaking than with the graphic EQ, and it is based on actual, spatially averaged in room response via the mike.

Does Pro do a better job than stock Audyssey? Everyone here thinks so, in addition to offering many important features stock lacks. One of them allows you to redraw segments if the target curve to your liking, if you wish to go that route.

I would start your education by going through the material at the Audyssey website. There is a better explanation there of how Audyssey works. Then, read the FAQ here. Finally, fire away with further questions here.
post #3815 of 5254
Quote:
Originally Posted by stu54 View Post

So you are saying that the XT32 has many more frequencies that the 14 shown for the manual equalizer. I was under the impression that the XT32 just set the level for the speaker at those 14 frequencies instead of me doing it with REW and my SPL meter. What you are saying is that internally there are more frequency points that the XT32 can use. Now the question for me is whether using the Pro kit would make the XT32 measurements so much better than the supplied calibration mike and it is worth spending the $500 plus license fee to get it.

As noted by other, the manual EQ is not anything near what Audyssey does. most parametric EQ's have 12 - 31 bands at most. Audyssey has the equivalent of 10,000 bands (actually FIR filters that also adjust in both the frequency and time domain). in both the mid/highs and bass regions (for XT and XT32). Pro just adds better integration of the sub to mains, ability to do adjustments in the curve, and uses a much better mic. You can find more info in the links that kbarnes and other put together - pretty impressive and more in-depth than the Audyssey site.
post #3816 of 5254
I believe Stu54 is talking about the built-in crossover frequencies, not the built-in EQ.
post #3817 of 5254
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Dodds View Post

I believe Stu54 is talking about the built-in crossover frequencies, not the built-in EQ.

I was talking about the built-in EQ. I used REW and my SPL and for every frequency the EQ had I put out a tone and measured the level then adjusted the level on the EQ for that frequency to try to get a flat response curve for my room. Looks like XT32 would do a much better job. My Integra dealer is going to give me a quote on the Pro kit + license. He does not have one.
post #3818 of 5254
Quote:
Originally Posted by stu54 View Post


I was talking about the built-in EQ. I used REW and my SPL and for every frequency the EQ had I put out a tone and measured the level then adjusted the level on the EQ for that frequency to try to get a flat response curve for my room. Looks like XT32 would do a much better job. My Integra dealer is going to give me a quote on the Pro kit + license. He does not have one.

Note, also, that Audyssey does more than simply normalize the FR.  It also measures and corrects in the time domain.

post #3819 of 5254
Quote:
Originally Posted by fitzcaraldo215 View Post

Unlike the built-in 14 fixed frequency graphic equalizer, Audyssey affects all frequencies as necessary based on the measurements by using a parametric EQ concept to bring response in line with a target curve. The parametric EQ filters are dynamic in that Audyssey centers them at the frequencies where they are most needed. Audyssey will not say exactly how many of these parametric filters it can use, but it has acknowledged that there are "hundreds". Each filter has a calculated center frequency, magnitude and "Q". It does all these calculations to set up the filters totally automatically to get the flattest response that is closest to the target curve based on the mike measurements. In addition, Audyssey does a lot to improve the time domain response, which the graphic equalizer totally ignores. So, when I say the graphic EQ is bush league, I really mean it, because Audyssey is way, way more sophisticated. The result is far better sound with much less manual tweaking than with the graphic EQ, and it is based on actual, spatially averaged in room response via the mike.

Does Pro do a better job than stock Audyssey? Everyone here thinks so, in addition to offering many important features stock lacks. One of them allows you to redraw segments if the target curve to your liking, if you wish to go that route.

I would start your education by going through the material at the Audyssey website. There is a better explanation there of how Audyssey works. Then, read the FAQ here. Finally, fire away with further questions here.

This was very helpful. Now I understand how the XT32 differs from the equalizer settings. Given the complexity of my room, which is a separate home theater room with sound-absorbent walls but with some odd angles, I think the Pro would better tune the Integra than the built-in setup program.
post #3820 of 5254
Quote:
Originally Posted by cavchameleon View Post

As noted by other, the manual EQ is not anything near what Audyssey does. most parametric EQ's have 12 - 31 bands at most. Audyssey has the equivalent of 10,000 bands (actually FIR filters that also adjust in both the frequency and time domain).


Here is a little better explanation of the difference between IIR (parametric EQ) and FIR filters that I've found.

IIR filters generally come in small blocks called biquads. Each biquad can implement one parametric EQ, or one low pass or high pass second order (12 dB per octave) filter. A fourth order (24 dB per octave) filter requires two biquads. They use very little processing horsepower and do a good job at replicating the magnitude and phase response of familiar analog filters. When you change the setting of a single parametric filter, only one biquad has to be changed. So, they work very well in devices that have a user interface, like a mixing board.

FIR filters usually come in large blocks. Each large block is capable of implementing a whole bunch of things simultaneously (like several dozen parametric filters, for example), and they are good at certain things that would be extremely difficult with IIR filters, like manipulating the phase response independently of the magnitude response. To change some small detail of the response of an FIR (like adjust one parametric filter), the entire FIR block has to be recalculated.



XT32 has over 10,000 filter taps per channel.XT (AVR version) has less than 1000 per each main channel and more than that for the sub channel.I can't and won't say exactly how many filter taps Audyssey uses because they don't like to let that information out.They claim their filters can't be directly compared to others. If you search long enough on the web you can eventually figure it out.It's also not just how many filter taps are used,but also the quality of the filter that matters.

On a side note.For instance, Trinnov uses 2048 FIR filter taps for each main channel and 15 IIR filters for the sub channel in their stand alone units for their Automatic Optimizer RC mode.Dirac Live uses 20,480 FIR filter taps for each channel including the sub channel.However,the mixed-phase approach that Dirac Live uses by nature requires more filter taps than a minimum-phase type system like Audyssey or Trinnov use.

Who's to know which system has the higher quality filters than the other?

EDIT:

Forgot that Trinnov uses 15 IIR filters below 300hz on each main channel.There are also software DRC systems that use as many as 80,000 FIR taps.I remember reading that a minimum of 20,000 taps was considered ideal.
Edited by StevenLansing - 1/29/13 at 10:38pm
post #3821 of 5254
We have been having problems with Audyssey Pro and 80.3 Integra receivers or processors. Everything goes along fine until starting the second microphone position. On the second position no "chirps:" occur although the program is showing the 7 speakers being tested in sequence on the appropriate screen. This has happened with 3 different laptops and the latest firmware from Integra and software from Audyssey. 3 different Integra 80.3s have been showing the same issues. Audyssey is pointing to Integra for the problem. Anyone else have any problems like this?Thanks
post #3822 of 5254
Quote:
Originally Posted by ddingle View Post

We have been having problems with Audyssey Pro and 80.3 Integra receivers or processors. Everything goes along fine until starting the second microphone position. On the second position no "chirps:" occur although the program is showing the 7 speakers being tested in sequence on the appropriate screen. This has happened with 3 different laptops and the latest firmware from Integra and software from Audyssey. 3 different Integra 80.3s have been showing the same issues. Audyssey is pointing to Integra for the problem. Anyone else have any problems like this?Thanks

Wow, that's not good to hear. I have an 80.3 and I am considering buying the Pro installer kit.
post #3823 of 5254
Quote:
Originally Posted by ddingle View Post

We have been having problems with Audyssey Pro and 80.3 Integra receivers or processors. Everything goes along fine until starting the second microphone position. On the second position no "chirps:" occur although the program is showing the 7 speakers being tested in sequence on the appropriate screen. This has happened with 3 different laptops and the latest firmware from Integra and software from Audyssey. 3 different Integra 80.3s have been showing the same issues. Audyssey is pointing to Integra for the problem. Anyone else have any problems like this?Thanks

Just did mine today and no problems.
post #3824 of 5254
Quote:
Originally Posted by ddingle View Post

We have been having problems with Audyssey Pro and 80.3 Integra receivers or processors. Everything goes along fine until starting the second microphone position. On the second position no "chirps:" occur although the program is showing the 7 speakers being tested in sequence on the appropriate screen. This has happened with 3 different laptops and the latest firmware from Integra and software from Audyssey. 3 different Integra 80.3s have been showing the same issues. Audyssey is pointing to Integra for the problem. Anyone else have any problems like this?Thanks

 

No problems on my functionally identical Onkyo 5509. I assume you have checked and verified all speaker wiring? Do the internal test tones play through all speakers?

post #3825 of 5254
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

No problems on my functionally identical Onkyo 5509. I assume you have checked and verified all speaker wiring? Do the internal test tones play through all speakers?
The tones are heard and transferred properly at the first microphone position. At the second position no sound is heard although the software is showing the speakers progressing from the left to center to right etc. Happened on 2 DHC 80.3s earlier and 1 DTR 80.3 yesterday.
post #3826 of 5254
Quote:
Originally Posted by ddingle View Post

The tones are heard and transferred properly at the first microphone position. At the second position no sound is heard although the software is showing the speakers progressing from the left to center to right etc. Happened on 2 DHC 80.3s earlier and 1 DTR 80.3 yesterday.

When I had my 80.3, I recall this ocurring because there was simultaneous ip control of the 80.3 - my roomie remote app was running, connected to the 80.3 via ip. It must do some periodic polling of the avr when the app is active, and it was cause communication issues when audyssey was trying to run.

So not sure what else you are running, but see if there is anything else trying to "talk" to the 80.3 at the same time (web browser connection?)

Also try assigning a static ip to the 80.3 that you know for certain is open...
post #3827 of 5254
Quote:
Originally Posted by ddingle View Post

We have been having problems with Audyssey Pro and 80.3 Integra receivers or processors. Everything goes along fine until starting the second microphone position. On the second position no "chirps:" occur although the program is showing the 7 speakers being tested in sequence on the appropriate screen. This has happened with 3 different laptops and the latest firmware from Integra and software from Audyssey. 3 different Integra 80.3s have been showing the same issues. Audyssey is pointing to Integra for the problem. Anyone else have any problems like this?Thanks

 

Not a Pro user but I follow this thread regularly and did have a thought about your issue.  If you're running the latest and greatest version of Pro software then you might want to consider trying the previous revision.  I seem to recall a lot of people not bothering with the upgrade as it only had minor fixes (excluding the Denon 4520 issue).  I'm not sure how many of the Integra DHC-80.3 users on here have actually upgraded the software so this would reduce a potential variable with your setup.  

post #3828 of 5254
Quote:
Originally Posted by ddingle View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

No problems on my functionally identical Onkyo 5509. I assume you have checked and verified all speaker wiring? Do the internal test tones play through all speakers?
The tones are heard and transferred properly at the first microphone position. At the second position no sound is heard although the software is showing the speakers progressing from the left to center to right etc. Happened on 2 DHC 80.3s earlier and 1 DTR 80.3 yesterday.

I mean the ordinary test tones in the AVR speaker config menu not the Audyssey tones - can you hear the regular level test tones from the AVR menu through all speakers?

 

Odd though that it is happening on several units. There's no issue with 80.2/3 units when using Pro - many in this thread use them. Please verify that the regular test tomes are heard.

 

You are connected with Ethernet and not wireless I assume?

post #3829 of 5254
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post

When I had my 80.3, I recall this ocurring because there was simultaneous ip control of the 80.3 - my roomie remote app was running, connected to the 80.3 via ip. It must do some periodic polling of the avr when the app is active, and it was cause communication issues when audyssey was trying to run.

So not sure what else you are running, but see if there is anything else trying to "talk" to the 80.3 at the same time (web browser connection?)

Also try assigning a static ip to the 80.3 that you know for certain is open...
Thanks. One of my techs has set his 80.3 up with just a switch and static IP's, no wifi, and still had the same problems. He has also tried his desktop and laptop. His issue is slightly different in that it gets to the rear speakers on the second position and then no chirps occur. I was at a customers home with an 80.3 and the remote system was disconnected and no applications were in use. Same issues except no chirps on second position.
post #3830 of 5254
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I mean the ordinary test tones in the AVR speaker config menu not the Audyssey tones - can you hear the regular level test tones from the AVR menu through all speakers?

Odd though that it is happening on several units. There's no issue with 80.2/3 units when using Pro - many in this thread use them. Please verify that the regular test tomes are heard.

You are connected with Ethernet and not wireless I assume?
Not sure about the internal test tones, the chirps from Audyssey do work fine doing the first position sweep. So they work. You can also use the included microphone and it works fine through the maximum 8 positions.
All connections are direct ethernet. Something odd for sure. Just completed a Denon 3313 with Pro and the same other equipment and it went swimmingly.
post #3831 of 5254
Quote:
Originally Posted by ddingle View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I mean the ordinary test tones in the AVR speaker config menu not the Audyssey tones - can you hear the regular level test tones from the AVR menu through all speakers?

Odd though that it is happening on several units. There's no issue with 80.2/3 units when using Pro - many in this thread use them. Please verify that the regular test tomes are heard.

You are connected with Ethernet and not wireless I assume?
Not sure about the internal test tones, the chirps from Audyssey do work fine doing the first position sweep. So they work. You can also use the included microphone and it works fine through the maximum 8 positions.
All connections are direct ethernet. Something odd for sure. Just completed a Denon 3313 with Pro and the same other equipment and it went swimmingly.

Most odd. Clearly it isn't Operator Error. Confusingly, the Pro Kit itself seems to be not culpable, if it works with the Denon. I know Pro works just fine with the 80.3/5509. 

 

Someone suggested earlier going back to the earlier version of the Pro software - have you tried that?  It's possible that many of us are using that version (I know I am) because the update offered nothing new or desirable to most of us. Perhaps there is some Integra/Audyssey incompatibility there (in the updated version)?

 

Sorry I have nothing more constructive than that to offer.

 

I was suggesting using the internal test tones just to verify that they play from every speaker. It's a basic test that will eliminate wiring issues (not likely in your case) and perhaps demonstrate that the 80.3 is working correctly too. At least in the sense that the test tones can be sent to every connected speaker.

post #3832 of 5254
Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenLansing View Post

On a side note.For instance, Trinnov uses 2048 FIR filter taps for each main channel and 15 IIR filters for the sub channel in their stand alone units for their Automatic Optimizer RC mode.
Why consider only the default conditions when Trinnov provides plenty of user-adjustment?
  • #FIR filter tap selectable from 512 to 64K+
  • #IIR filters selectable from 0 to 30
  • IIR filter frequency correction min and max values selectable from 10Hz to 500Hz
  • Use IIR filters only
  • Use FIR filters only
  • Use FIR+IIR filters

Trinnov is only minimum phase when only IIR filters are used. It's mixed phase when both IIR and FIR are used, as is customary.

To what sub channel are you referring? In the stand-alone Trinnovs, a channel is a channel and can be used for any purpose.
Edited by RUR - 1/30/13 at 2:33pm
post #3833 of 5254
Quote:
Originally Posted by ddingle View Post


Not sure about the internal test tones, the chirps from Audyssey do work fine doing the first position sweep. So they work. You can also use the included microphone and it works fine through the maximum 8 positions.
All connections are direct ethernet. Something odd for sure. Just completed a Denon 3313 with Pro and the same other equipment and it went swimmingly.

I think it's time for a call to Audyssey Tech Support!

post #3834 of 5254
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

I think it's time for a call to Audyssey Tech Support!
Well we took things to another level. We used a different (4th we have tried) laptop (Lenovo) on an 80.3 in our office that had failed earlier. It worked fine! When the laptop we used yesterday ( and failed) comes back to the office we are going to try it with the same combination. Getting closer to actually figuring out what is causing the issue. I will keep the thread updated
post #3835 of 5254
Quote:
Originally Posted by RUR View Post

Why consider only the default conditions when Trinnov provides plenty of user-adjustment?
  • #FIR filter tap selectable from 512 to 64K+
  • #IIR filters selectable from 0 to 30
  • IIR filter frequency correction min and max values selectable from 10Hz to 500Hz
  • Use IIR filters only
  • Use FIR filters only
  • Use FIR+IIR filters

Trinnov is only minimum phase when only IIR filters are used. It's mixed phase when both IIR and FIR are used, as is customary.

To what sub channel are you referring? In the stand-alone Trinnovs, a channel is a channel and can be used for any purpose.

I'm going on information that Curt Hoyt told me when I asked about the professional units and by the Optimizer user guide v3.1 v3 PDF. Is this the latest version?In this version manual it states that using:

FIR only: no IIR filters are used, which means that the Optimizer will only work on the mid
and high range of the speaker responses. The low range will not be optimized;


IIR only: with this setting, both the automatic FIR and the FIR EQ are disabled. The
Optimizer will only use IIR filters to work on the low range. This setting could be used in
specific cases where the user wants to be sure that no FIR filters at all are applied.


FIR + IIR: this is the default setting used by the Optimizer: both IIR and FIR filters are used
to work on the speaker responses full range;


FIR and IIR settings:
o FIR filter length (default is 20ms): defines the length or number of taps of the FIR filter. The
default setting of 20ms corresponds to 1024 taps at 48kHz and 2048 taps at 96kHz.
o Number of IIR filters (default is 15): the number of IIR filters that will be used on every channel.
o IIR filters minimal/maximal frequency (default is 20Hz/300Hz): IIR filters will be positioned from
the min frequency up to the max frequency.


Both IIR or FIR filters can be minimum-phase.Using FIR and IIR filters together does not make a mixed-phase system.
post #3836 of 5254
Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenLansing View Post

FIR and IIR settings:
o FIR filter length (default is 20ms): defines the length or number of taps of the FIR filter. The
default setting of 20ms corresponds to 1024 taps at 48kHz and 2048 taps at 96kHz.
o Number of IIR filters (default is 15): the number of IIR filters that will be used on every channel.
o IIR filters minimal/maximal frequency (default is 20Hz/300Hz): IIR filters will be positioned from
the min frequency up to the max frequency.
Steven, once again you're citing the default settings, all of which are easily changed by the user within the limits I outlined above. There's a big difference between default and capabilities.

But this is an Audyssey thread and we're OT. If you sincerely wish to continue this discussion, may I suggest one of the several Trinnov threads in the $20K forum?
post #3837 of 5254
Quote:
Originally Posted by ddingle View Post

Well we took things to another level. We used a different (4th we have tried) laptop (Lenovo) on an 80.3 in our office that had failed earlier. It worked fine! When the laptop we used yesterday ( and failed) comes back to the office we are going to try it with the same combination. Getting closer to actually figuring out what is causing the issue. I will keep the thread updated

We spent a bunch more time at our client's home trying to get Pro Audyssey to work on his DTR 80.3. No such luck. Same situation as before. No chirps on second position. Used 2 different laptops, did a complete "all clear" reset,connected directly to the unit without any router.Hours of messing around. Luke from Audyssey had recommended the "All clear". He did not have any other insight. They have a document about calibrating 80.3 available He indicated Integras had been quirky.Not much assistance from Integra so far either. I am pretty much wrapping it up on using any more Integras. Denon is much more predictable.
post #3838 of 5254
Quote:
Originally Posted by RUR View Post

Steven, once again you're citing the default settings, all of which are easily changed by the user within the limits I outlined above. There's a big difference between default and capabilities.

But this is an Audyssey thread and we're OT. If you sincerely wish to continue this discussion, may I suggest one of the several Trinnov threads in the $20K forum?

Is there somewhere I can download a more comprehensive manual for these units?I'd like to read up more on this.The defaults are the only published parameters for these units and the only ones Curt Hoyt told me of.If I were comparing Auto EQ to Auto EQ then the default settings would be the initial comparisons I would start with.
post #3839 of 5254
Keith

Read though portions of your FAQ, tremendous job. Little confused on the gain matching of subs.

Currently, I have not gained matched, though using a the pro level matching, the sub gain settings are nearly identical, and the completed pro cal has the sub trims within .5db of one another. The subs are identical Fathom f113, in approximately equal opposing placement in the left and right front portions of the room.

If I were to gain match, I'm not sure what I'm doing with the initial sound meter reading with the sub in the center of the room. I surmise I am leaving the prerpro trim at 0, and shooting for the approximate reading, give or take, of 90 db with the sub trim, user the assumption the reading will drop nearer to 75 db once in returned to its original location and using the audyssey level match? Couldn't one put the each sub in the center of the room one a t a time and use the level match readout in pro for each sub to accomplish similar result, then run the full calibration and don't touch the Pro level adjustments further regardless of the error message, presuming you are withing +- 3db?

And on that +/- 3db point, you mention:
Quote:
When the calibration has completed, observe what trim level Audyssey sets in the AVR for the sub channels. Ideally, it should be in the -3dB to +3 dB range. If it is too far towards either limit, go back to step 5 and use either a lower or higher target gain level, depending on your final results.

Right now, I am at -8 and -8.5 on the trims after level matching each sub in position. Why is this not optimal? I thought as long as you were not at the max trim levels (which would potentially imply more trim might have been needed but the range was not there), one was fine...

Thanks
Edited by thrang - 2/3/13 at 8:00am
post #3840 of 5254
Thread Starter 
^It is my understanding that identical subs equidistant from MLP would not likely benefit from the trouble of gain-matching. The fact that they are within 0.5dB further supports this with a measured result.

As to -8 AVR sub trims, there has been discussion on this topic on the Audyssey thread repeatedly, last not too long ago.

My take: if you don't use AutoOn/Off for your subs, or if this level of signal is sufficient to turn them on and keep them on, then you should be fine at -8. SQ should be unaffected whether it's -8 or -3.5 or 3.5.
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