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The Audyssey Pro Installer Kit Thread (FAQ in post #1) - Page 150

post #4471 of 5250
^ Thanks Pepar, that was kind of the conclusion I was drawing ---target curve editor seems to be the other good thing since it has those tweaks you can make there.
post #4472 of 5250
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Keith actually sounds like he might forego the kit if he had it to do over again and knew what he knows now. IMO, the Pro mic will always provide a better calibration that the OEM mic. IMO, the mic is the main attraction and everything else about the kit is extra.

Jeff

That's the message I get too. That if it _were_ either/or, he'd choose the REW+treatment route over the Pro Kit given a time machine and perfect knowledge of the future. OTOH, he went through a pretty steep learning curve with his kit in the prehistoric time before he got his Seaton Submersives - remember the epic journey with one sub being out of phase last year? But if he hadn't went through that learning curve, would he have jumped into the rabbit hole as much as he did with treatments? Who knows....

Something else to keep in mind - our audio knowledge, for the more dedicated/obsessed among us (of which I'm actually closer to SOM than Keith, as far as time commitment goes, even if I have a residency permit in the rabbit hole), is a continuing process, without a single beginning or clear end. The REW/HDM/USB mic kit didn't exist in its present form this time last year, nor was there a dedicated AVS thread on its use or AJ's comprehensive how-to guide. Who knows what the future may bring - at least for me, it may be Dirac Live if the right (LT $3K) platform emerges or I build it into an HTPC, and I want to invest in the necessary separate amp to make it operational. Or a dedicated HT room when we move post-iBaby (2014ish), in which case I'd probably hire jevansoh or AJ as a consultant LOL to continue with Audyssey Pro and a treatment-oriented room.

As to what it is about the Pro kit that's the "main attraction", YMMV. I'd pick the Target Curve Editor - which I used to as a first response to correcting some things in my center's crossover region, for upper range of my mains above MRC, as well as to moderately tame a peak on my surrounds) and saving calibrations for quick tweaks or restored settings ahead of anything else. I'm less sold that the more sensitive mic really makes that much of a difference, especially after Jerry's observations with his pre-out testing. But again, that's from the perspective of having an OmniMic and then REW for almost the entire time I used Pro. And since I have the Pro kit with no intention of selling it given an XT32 solution, I see no reason to go down memory lane and compare what a Pro-less configuration sounds like. All I know is that it's better than the old MCACC-based Pio unit I used.
Edited by sdrucker - 6/24/13 at 9:23am
post #4473 of 5250
Anybody want to buy a Pro Kit, 350 + shipping.
post #4474 of 5250
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsoko2 View Post

Anybody want to buy a Pro Kit, 350 + shipping.

Just to disprove my "conventional wisdom"....I know you have a Pioneer unit with Antimode, but are you still using an AVR with XT32?

If you aren't, I should caveat my comment about "I don't think there's anyone here that would go back to plain XT32 after purchasing the Pro Kit" to those that see themselves doing more XT32 calibrations LOL...
post #4475 of 5250
Quote:
Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

^ Thanks Pepar, that was kind of the conclusion I was drawing ---target curve editor seems to be the other good thing since it has those tweaks you can make there.

Agreed on the Curve Editor! My tweaks with my 5508 are subtle, but noticeable. A lot of that is that I can't easily ... or just simply can't ... switch back and forth between Audyssey Reference and Audyssey Flat, so I use the Curve Editor to lift the upper end.

Since we are among friends, I will wonder out loud how much disillusion with Audyssey, the company, has lowered opinions of Audyssey, the technology. wink.gif

Jeff
post #4476 of 5250
Sorry For Being Off Topic

On the previous page this comment stood out at my>
XT32+Pro calibration (with the crossover 'distance' tweak)
Posted By AVS member Sdrucker,

Could Someone Kindly point me to where I can learn
More about what this is about..

Thanks,
CM..
post #4477 of 5250
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Keith actually sounds like he might forego the kit if he had it to do over again and knew what he knows now. IMO, the Pro mic will always provide a better calibration that the OEM mic. IMO, the mic is the main attraction and everything else about the kit is extra.

Jeff

That's the message I get too. That if it _were_ either/or, he'd choose the REW+treatment route over the Pro Kit given a time machine and perfect knowledge of the future. OTOH, he went through a pretty steep learning curve with his kit in the prehistoric time before he got his Seaton Submersives - remember the epic journey with one sub being out of phase last year? But if he hadn't went through that learning curve, would he have jumped into the rabbit hole as much as he did with treatments? Who knows....
 

 

Yep. But as you rightly say, we are all geniuses with 20/20 hindsight. Knowing what I know now, I don't think I'd do the Pro Kit these days. XT32 plus REW plus treatments plus all I have learned since buying Pro is the reason why. But having got the Pro Kit, I will continue to use it. 

 

It was the out of phase sub that got me started, your guess is correct, Stuart. I really had to buckle down and learn how to use the OmniMic to solve that problem. Having learned how useful it was tio be able to measure, that was got me started down the rabbit hole. I am glad I made that choice though as the stuff I have learned has helped me hugely.

post #4478 of 5250
Quote:
Originally Posted by cinema mad View Post

Sorry For Being Off Topic

On the previous page this comment stood out at my>
XT32+Pro calibration (with the crossover 'distance' tweak)
Posted By AVS member Sdrucker,

Could Someone Kindly point me to where I can learn
More about what this is about..

Thanks,
CM..

 

See attachment.

 

 

 

 

Sub Distance Tweak Procedure Guide 1,121k .pdf file
post #4479 of 5250
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post

Just to disprove my "conventional wisdom"....I know you have a Pioneer unit with Antimode, but are you still using an AVR with XT32?

If you aren't, I should caveat my comment about "I don't think there's anyone here that would go back to plain XT32 after purchasing the Pro Kit" to those that see themselves doing more XT32 calibrations LOL...

Used Pro with XT32 and Pro tanked during setup and Integra or Audyssey could figure out why. Pro has some issues with XT32 and loks up. Integra wanted my unit so they could troubleshoot it and would not give me a replacement or tell me how long I would be without. I declined and stayed with XT32 as it still works just fine. My room is fully trated and really didn't notice much difference via REW between the two. I have a 4311CI in the living room setup for regular TV & Musaice and a Integra DHC 80.3 & Onkyo M5500 for Movies in the HT room. No Pioneers checkout my sig.


Bill
post #4480 of 5250
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Since we are among friends, I will wonder out loud how much disillusion with Audyssey, the company, has lowered opinions of Audyssey, the technology. wink.gif

Jeff

 

I think that has been a factor for me. 

post #4481 of 5250
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post


Since we are among friends, I will wonder out loud how much disillusion with Audyssey, the company, has lowered opinions of Audyssey, the technology. wink.gif

Jeff

Quite a lot, particularly due to tthe non-response AJ got to his bug list submission, gradual withdrawal of two-way interaction with the developer, and the lack of development of the platform in response to consumer ("our") response.

However, the core functionality of what Audyssey does do right still beats its competition IMO, namely MCACC, YPAO, ARC, and crude PEQ, thanks to XT32 sub/mains resolution and DEQ. And remember, we're talking about automated room correction for mass marketed consumer audio. If you want more open-ended tweakability and close support, be prepared to join the 1% in the $20,000+ gear thread.

They may not be Oppo, but at the end of the day, it's still better than, say, Pioneer, whose marrketing guru appears mostly if not exclusively for new product promotion on AVS threads.
Edited by sdrucker - 6/24/13 at 11:21am
post #4482 of 5250
wow Thankyou for the link regarding my post above ..

CM
post #4483 of 5250
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsoko2 View Post

Used Pro with XT32 and Pro tanked during setup and Integra or Audyssey could figure out why. Pro has some issues with XT32 and loks up. Integra wanted my unit so they could troubleshoot it and would not give me a replacement or tell me how long I would be without. I declined and stayed with XT32 as it still works just fine. My room is fully trated and really didn't notice much difference via REW between the two. I have a 4311CI in the living room setup for regular TV & Musaice and a Integra DHC 80.3 & Onkyo M5500 for Movies in the HT room. No Pioneers checkout my sig.


Bill

I stand corrected...for some reason I thought you had a Pioneer as your second unit. But to be clear, are you saying that you were able to get Pro to work on your 4311? How did you find music to sound with and w/o Pro being used with XT32?
post #4484 of 5250
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post


Since we are among friends, I will wonder out loud how much disillusion with Audyssey, the company, has lowered opinions of Audyssey, the technology. wink.gif

Jeff

Quite a lot, particularly due to tthe non-response AJ got to his bug list submission, gradual withdrawal of two-way interaction with the developer, and the lack of development of the platform in response to consumer ("our") response.

However, the core functionality of what Audyssey does do right still beats its competition IMO, namely MCACC, YPAO, ARC, and crude PEQ, thanks to XT32 sub/mains resolution and DEQ. And remember, we're talking about automated room correction for mass marketed consumer audio. If you want more open-ended tweakability and close support, be prepared to join the 1% in the $20,000+ gear thread.

They may not be Oppo, but at the end of the day, it's still better than, say, Pioneer, whose marrketing guru appears mostly if not exclusively for new product promotion on AVS threads.

 

Crude PEQ?  There\s nothing crude about a nice 12 channel PEQ, Stuart. In the right hands of course. When you can adjust level, frequency and bandwidth what more do you really need?  Well, REW to tell you where you need to make the adjustments of course. And 12 channels is way more than anyone will ever need to dial in a flat response, or a house curve.

post #4485 of 5250
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Crude PEQ?  There\s nothing crude about a nice 12 channel PEQ, Stuart. In the right hands of course. When you can adjust level, frequency and bandwidth what more do you really need?  Well, REW to tell you where you need to make the adjustments of course. And 12 channels is way more than anyone will ever need to dial in a flat response, or a house curve.

I'm not so much thinking about your favorite toy (a/k/a the Behringer Feedback Destroyer), which in your case you were planning to use with subs to tweak your Audyssey calibration with more sensitivity than the Target Curve Editor could give you. I was actually thinking more along the lines of old style 1/3 octave graphic equalizers, or the kind of electronic PEQ that, say, a Sony AVR might have (some tweakability of level and frequency but likely not bandwidth) or the Denon if you chose to use their PEQ vs. Audyssey for some reason. I count both of those as "competition" to the extent that any adjustment of imputed sound away from "Direct" might be among the common buyer at the likes of a Magnolia/Best Buy store, J&R, or ABT here in the States.

Believe it or not, I still have fond memories of the cool green lighting on my old Pioneer Electronics two-channel, charcoal black graphic equalizer from college, in the early 80's. So if you actually pry yourself from movies, I envy all the lights on your Behringer. A pity that the overall look of the unit is so ugly....and at least Audyssey doesn't give you the Behringer "buzz" LOL...
Edited by sdrucker - 6/24/13 at 1:01pm
post #4486 of 5250
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post

I stand corrected...for some reason I thought you had a Pioneer as your second unit. But to be clear, are you saying that you were able to get Pro to work on your 4311? How did you find music to sound with and w/o Pro being used with XT32?

Never used Pro with the 4311, used it with the Integra DHC 80.3. XT32 works very well in my large open living room for TV and music. Integra is for my HT room and that is the unit that Pro has trouble with. Doesn't recognize the 7th speaker in a 11.2 setup.
post #4487 of 5250
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsoko2 View Post

Never used Pro with the 4311, used it with the Integra DHC 80.3. XT32 works very well in my large open living room for TV and music. Integra is for my HT room and that is the unit that Pro has trouble with. Doesn't recognize the 7th speaker in a 11.2 setup.

Up to you, but before you dump your kit you might want to save/load your current configuration and try Pro on the Denon 4311. I and many others have used Pro with the 4311, and you should be able to get Audyssey to move your single license from Integra to the 4311 as far as I know.

If nothing else you can save as an alternative calibration and then sell your kit.

Stuart
post #4488 of 5250
Do we have any instances where they have moved a license? I don't recall any ....

Jeff
post #4489 of 5250
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Do we have any instances where they have moved a license? I don't recall any ....

Jeff

Not quite the same, but I am on my third Denon 4520 now, and each time I have received a replacement, they have transferred the license to the new unit. If I were to buy a different AVR, I'm not sure I could transfer the license. ICBW.
post #4490 of 5250
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Not quite the same, but I am on my third Denon 4520 now, and each time I have received a replacement, they have transferred the license to the new unit. If I were to buy a different AVR, I'm not sure I could transfer the license. ICBW.
I'm not sure you couldn't, but that'd be my bet. That's a bridge too far.

Jeff
post #4491 of 5250
A little unfair in the OP (bsoko2's) case if he had issues with the Integra. It would be nice if he could have one AVR that he could use his one Pro license with in a glitch-free install.
post #4492 of 5250
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Do we have any instances where they have moved a license? I don't recall any ....

Jeff

They moved the license from my Integra DHC-80.2 when it failed to my new DHC-80.3, but that was Integra to Integra.

post #4493 of 5250
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Crude PEQ?  There\s nothing crude about a nice 12 channel PEQ, Stuart. In the right hands of course. When you can adjust level, frequency and bandwidth what more do you really need?  Well, REW to tell you where you need to make the adjustments of course. And 12 channels is way more than anyone will ever need to dial in a flat response, or a house curve.

I'm not so much thinking about your favorite toy (a/k/a the Behringer Feedback Destroyer), which in your case you were planning to use with subs to tweak your Audyssey calibration with more sensitivity than the Target Curve Editor could give you. I was actually thinking more along the lines of old style 1/3 octave graphic equalizers, or the kind of electronic PEQ that, say, a Sony AVR might have (some tweakability of level and frequency but likely not bandwidth) or the Denon if you chose to use their PEQ vs. Audyssey for some reason. I count both of those as "competition" to the extent that any adjustment of imputed sound away from "Direct" might be among the common buyer at the likes of a Magnolia/Best Buy store, J&R, or ABT here in the States.

Believe it or not, I still have fond memories of the cool green lighting on my old Pioneer Electronics two-channel, charcoal black graphic equalizer from college, in the early 80's. So if you actually pry yourself from movies, I envy all the lights on your Behringer. A pity that the overall look of the unit is so ugly....and at least Audyssey doesn't give you the Behringer "buzz" LOL...

 

There is a vast difference between the essentially useless graphic equalizer, though, and a sophisticated PEQ (like the Behringer). 

 

If you can't adjust the bandwidth it's not a PEQ - you have to have the three parameters - frequency, level and width. 

 

All my gear is in the separate closet of course, so the pig-ugliness of the Behringer is of no consequence here :)

post #4494 of 5250
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post

 

Up to you, but before you dump your kit you might want to save/load your current configuration and try Pro on the Denon 4311. I and many others have used Pro with the 4311, and you should be able to get Audyssey to move your single license from Integra to the 4311 as far as I know.
 

 

I don't believe they will, Stuart. It's another $100 $150 (thank you SoM) cost added, effectively, to the cost of the new AVR. I think this is quite bad really. I can see the point of licensing individual units for an installer, but every single software licence I can ever recall having has allowed me, as a single user, to use the software on any single piece of hardware I own. Given the huge cost of the software (estimated at $500 by me) it seems extraordinarily mean to charge me an additional $100 $150 and then not allow me to transfer it to another unit without paying a further $100 $150. Even Adobe, with their $$$hundreds for Photoshop allow me to use it on any one computer I happen to own at the time. So do MS with Office.


Edited by kbarnes701 - 6/28/13 at 7:15am
post #4495 of 5250
Thread Starter 
IMO a case could be made for a Pro license refund or transfer from Integra to Denon, as it is specifically the problems with Pro in the Integra model that is the issue.

Weat I want to know is why Keith keeps referring to a license for $100. If I spell it "licence" do I get a discount off the $150? wink.gif
post #4496 of 5250
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I don't believe they will, Stuart. It's another $100 cost added, effectively, to the cost of the new AVR. I think this is quite bad really. I can see the point of licensing individual units for an installer, but every single software licence I can ever recall having has allowed me, as a single user, to use the software on any single piece of hardware I own. Given the huge cost of the software (estimated at $500 by me) it seems extraordinarily mean to charge me an additional $100 and then not allow me to transfer it to another unit without paying a further $100. Even Adobe, with their $$$hundreds for Photoshop allow me to use it on any one computer I happen to own at the time. So do MS with Office.

I believe you, with the key being 'installer' rather than 'consumer' minded. I had thought that from their POV, a single license was a single license, so what AVR it was installed in at a single time wasn't the issue so much as it was usage of one AVR per install site/user at a time. Kind of like one of those old hardware dongles they used to have on PCs for copy protection, IOW.

But the examples of license moves mentioned here are all within-manufacturer, as pointed out. I guess it makes sense from a perspective of mfr-related royalties or internal accounting, and for CIs charging for their time as end users.
post #4497 of 5250
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

IMO a case could be made for a Pro license refund or transfer from Integra to Denon, as it is specifically the problems with Pro in the Integra model that is the issue.

Weat I want to know is why Keith keeps referring to a license for $100. If I spell it "licence" do I get a discount off the $150? wink.gif

 

LOL!!  Of course, it's even worse than I thought... $150!!

 

To refuse a licence transfer when the reason it is required in the first place is because the licensed product doesn't actually work on the unit in question is the sort of customer service we might expect in the UK. I'd expect better from the States I must admit.

 

We are even more cunning in our attempts to confuse Johnny Foreigner than you might think: we spell licence with a C when it is a noun but license with an S when it is a verb. They even teach us in primary school a little mnemonic so we know which is which - "the Cat (noun) Sat (verb) on the mat".

post #4498 of 5250
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

We are even more cunning in our attempts to confuse Johnny Foreigner than you might think: we spell licence with a C when it is a noun but license with an S when it is a verb. They even teach us in primary school a little mnemonic so we know which is which - "the Cat (noun) Sat (verb) on the mat".
Heh, now there's a nuance I hadn't learnt learned from reading British novels and car mags.
post #4499 of 5250
Anyone renting or selling a recent pro kit? preferably with a licence for the denon x4000. Please pm

are there other x4000 owners intersected in cost sharing or.renting if I spearhead this?

the licence good per serial number or per model number?
post #4500 of 5250
Quote:
Originally Posted by armstrr View Post

Anyone renting or selling a recent pro kit? preferably with a licence for the denon x4000. Please pm

are there other x4000 owners intersected in cost sharing or.renting if I spearhead this?

the licence good per serial number or per model number?

 

If you borrow a kit, or if you buy a secondhand kit, you will have to pay the $150 for a licence for your unit. Licences are tied to individual units.  It makes sense for a group of people who live reasonably close to each other to pool their resources to buy a kit between them (it's not something you use all that often) - but each person in the group would have to buy a $150 licence to be able to use the kit. 

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