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The Audyssey Pro Installer Kit Thread (FAQ in post #1) - Page 168

post #5011 of 5281
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Just AAMOI, does anyone know what Audyssey themselves say that Pro actually does? I don't recall ever seeing anything substantive on this from Audyssey. They mention the mic is better thanks to its individual calibration and they mention the possibility of doing up to 32 measuring positions (which few people really need and there is some evidence than more than 8 or 10 is counter-productive). But what exactly are the improvements that Pro is meant to make over and above an XT32 calibration?  Anyone know the official position?


Pro also adds an additional step in optimizing the crossover region.

https://audyssey.zendesk.com/entries/20648032-Does-MultEQ-optimize-the-crossover-region-between-satellite-speakers-and-subwoofer-
post #5012 of 5281
Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenLansing View Post

Pro also adds an additional step in optimizing the crossover region.

https://audyssey.zendesk.com/entries/20648032-Does-MultEQ-optimize-the-crossover-region-between-satellite-speakers-and-subwoofer-

That two year old answer from Chris does expand a wee bit on this from the Pro Kit FAQ: "The extra processing power of the computer Pro runs on is used to analyse the data. One result of that is, unlike any other version of Audyssey MultEQ, different potential crossovers are ranked to optimise the splice with the satellites. Then, once you chose a crossover, again unlike any other version of Audyssey MultEQ, a unique high-pass filter is applied, optimised for that crossover.*

Jeff
post #5013 of 5281
The Oracle has spoken:

Stuart,
You made me think of Gödel’s Incompleteness Theorem with your question…
Anyway… the changes in the editor are applied to the selected target curve to create a “new” one that is used for the final filter calculation. The problem is linear so there is really no effect due to the order of operations.
post #5014 of 5281
Thanks for the clarity, Stuart. This is the right way to do it and should obviate any issues with "unknown Q" etc.
post #5015 of 5281
Quote:
Originally Posted by RUR View Post

Thanks for the clarity, Stuart. This is the right way to do it and should obviate any issues with "unknown Q" etc.

.... known unknowns and unknown unknowns .... wink.gif
post #5016 of 5281
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

.... known unknowns and unknown unknowns .... wink.gif

Well, some of us care about order effects....nice to hear from Chris that the results are "order invariant". So basically the curve is the curve, once you'd done any changes with TCE.
post #5017 of 5281
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post

Well, some of us care about order effects....nice to hear from Chris that the results are "order invariant". So basically the curve is the curve, once you'd done any changes with TCE.

Sure, but I never wondered about what the order was. And once it came up, I assumed that the folks that designed it would have sorted that all out and did it however it needed to be done to work correctly. Plus, it's not like the user can change the order.

Jeff
post #5018 of 5281
I've seen some chatter here about Trinnov. What is that costing these days and what gear has it?

Jeff
post #5019 of 5281
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

I've seen some chatter here about Trinnov. What is that costing these days and what gear has it?

Jeff
Well, Stuart can fill you in on the thrills and chills of the 972. In the Trinnov/Trinnov world, the MC 8 will handle 8 channels and costs $12-13K. 12 and 16 channels are available, but more $$$. For decoding, a number of folks are using the Oppo with Vanity board(?) digiital-direct into the MC 8 with excellent results - see $20K forum.
post #5020 of 5281
Quote:
Originally Posted by RUR View Post

Well, Stuart can fill you in on the thrills and chills of the 972. In the Trinnov/Trinnov world, the MC 8 will handle 8 channels and costs $12-13K. 12 and 16 channels are available, but more $$$. For decoding, a number of folks are using the Oppo with Vanity board(?) digiital-direct into the MC 8 with excellent results - see $20K forum.

Ouch. Are there any reasonably priced, i.e. essentially FREE, room correction technology alternatives to Audyssey?

Have there been any comparison reviews between Audyssey and Trinnov? Between Audyssey and ... anything? I've never seen any.
post #5021 of 5281
I'm unaware of any free alternatives. Cheapest I could probably live with would be Dirac Live (€650.00), mounted on an HTPC, but PC-based anything gives me a headache. Dirac is also due to be launched Feb on the long-awaited Emotiva pre/pro @ ~$2K. Will they meet schedule and will this version of Dirac be anything like the full-featured version? We shall see!
post #5022 of 5281
That is a bit exciting ... both the Emo and Dirac parts.

Jeff
post #5023 of 5281
It really is. Dirac is comparable to Trinnov and a full-featured, or nearly full-featured Dirac pre/pro @ $2K would be a real paradigm shift.
post #5024 of 5281
Quote:
Originally Posted by RUR View Post

It really is. Dirac is comparable to Trinnov and a full-featured, or nearly full-featured Dirac pre/pro @ $2K would be a real paradigm shift.

They try to do the same thing, which is correct the room for both frequency response and impulse response. What you'd want to get close to a full featured Trinnov is bass management, with a capacity for choosing high/low shelf filters, and IMO a matrix editor for inputs/outputs. Dirac RCS also has the ability to measure multiple positions (i.e. a sofa vs. a chair), and a target curve editor which I think operates similarly to the Audyssey Pro Target Curve Editor, as a drag and drop interface. However, it's got considerably more resolution than Audyssey's 1/3 octave width approach AFAIK.
post #5025 of 5281
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Ouch. Are there any reasonably priced, i.e. essentially FREE, room correction technology alternatives to Audyssey?

Have there been any comparison reviews between Audyssey and Trinnov? Between Audyssey and ... anything? I've never seen any.

Not that I know of, but from personal experiences in trying to do my own A/B/X test, it's difficult to do a direct comparison for at least three reasons:
a) Even employing the same amplification source (which is what I've done with my Denon 4311) and level matching by channel without equalization, the algorithms have different philosophies for crossovers. Audyssey uses a -3db point for speakers, with some rounding to implement the crossover at the manufacturer/AVR level, while at least the R-972's implementation of Trinnov uses an arithmetic mean of the -6 db dropoff point for speakers (high pass), and the -6 db dropoff point for the subwoofer channel (low pass). You can't really have a single "control" IMO, more a comparison of the level of correction between algorithms relative to the without EQ level of the relevant pre/pro (AVR).
b) Audyssey doesn't correct for room position, and Trinnov can with remapping. As a result, is it really proper to compare them head to head, and if so, how? Likewise, they use a different style of mic to make the measurement possible
c) Which Trinnov? The basic DSP version I have, which I've fleshed out with a MiniDSP 10x10 HD, or the full featured real thing for $12K+ for an eight channel (or more, for additional $) system?

I can give you an anecdotal, nuanced opinion based on sighted listening, after a week of R-972 experience, but I think it's premature to draw any conclusions until I get more experience running calibrations with my R-972, and make some changes in my configuration to leverage my MiniDSP 10x10. And IMO it's equally premature to show graphs.
Edited by sdrucker - 1/2/14 at 3:27pm
post #5026 of 5281
Quote:
Originally Posted by RUR View Post

Well, Stuart can fill you in on the thrills and chills of the 972. In the Trinnov/Trinnov world, the MC 8 will handle 8 channels and costs $12-13K. 12 and 16 channels are available, but more $$$. For decoding, a number of folks are using the Oppo with Vanity board(?) digiital-direct into the MC 8 with excellent results - see $20K forum.

Do you want an actual, hands-on opinion here or PM, Jeff? You tell me. Ken (Rur) knows my opinion already smile.gif.

And I'm using an Oppo 103 in my setup, less for the pure signal from a Vanity board as to get around a few shortcomings of the 2009-era R-972 platform (and to try to facilitate comparisons between approaches by having a single source to provide the data).

Take this for what it's worth: I picked up a second, new R-972 as a backup over the weekend, and in addition there's apparently there's no longer any new (A-stock) units available as of Monday from AC4L, who AFAIK are the only site with new units at the moment. I wouldn't go near a refurbished unit for all the money on Wall Street.

What I can say as far as functionality goes is that the Oppo and a universal remote take you a long way around the unit's reported issues, along with a separate amp source. It's also an eight channel (7.1) solution. Beyond that, running Trinnov with the R-972 isn't difficult for anyone that has experience with an Audyssey Pro kit.
Edited by sdrucker - 1/2/14 at 3:39pm
post #5027 of 5281
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post

Do you want an actual, hands-on opinion here or PM? You tell me.
I think he's referring to you, Jeff. Stuart's been keeping me abreast of his experiences.
post #5028 of 5281
^^ I just edited my post to reflect that.
post #5029 of 5281
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
Do you want an actual, hands-on opinion here or PM? You tell me.

Stu, your subjective and objective reports of Trinnov vs XT32 Pro are interesting, unique and most welcome here. 

 

But just to make it easier on you, I suggest you go ahead with your idea of your own dedicated comparison thread  so you don't end up reporting the same thing in 3 or more places. 

 

I've found just announcing/linking the new thread in the appropriate haunts is usually effective in drawing interested parties. 

post #5030 of 5281
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

Stu, your subjective and objective reports of Trinnov vs XT32 Pro are interesting, unique and most welcome here. 

But just to make it easier on you, I suggest you go ahead with your idea of your own dedicated comparison thread  so you don't end up reporting the same thing in 3 or more places. 

I've found just announcing/linking the new thread in the appropriate haunts is usually effective in drawing interested parties. 

I know, but the only reason I haven't is that I don't feel I'm at a point where I can post graphs as 'evidence', because there's some issues I want to work out before I do with the quirks of my setup (DefTech Mythos ST). When I do I'll put it up.

The other issue is that I had originally hoped to develop a thread that would encourage others to use the R-972 (with or without other assisted technology) as a way to get more interest with Trinnov outside the relatively few folks using the MC or ADA platforms. But with the R-972 no long available on AC4L, my concern is that we'd have the sonic equivalent of a snowflake. Meaning really cool but difficult to repeat.

Or...does anyone have an interest in a comparative REQ platform thread, using a common framework (AustinJerry's REW guide) as a way to conduct any comparisons? There's been one or two on AVS, but AFAIK they've died down.
post #5031 of 5281
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post

Do you want an actual, hands-on opinion here or PM, Jeff? You tell me. Ken (Rur) knows my opinion already smile.gif.
PM - to keep this thread more or less on topic. I'm clueless as to what the Oppo has to do with it, and is this a hack of the 972?

Jeff
post #5032 of 5281
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

PM - to keep this thread more or less on topic. I'm clueless as to what the Oppo has to do with it, and is this a hack of the 972?

Jeff

Nothing like that - just HDMI inputs/outputs being used creatively with the standard capabilities of the Oppo 103, to avoid some reported functionality issues with the 972. You can look at the R-972 thread if you want to see the "why". I'm still working so I'll PM you later tonight.
Edited by sdrucker - 1/2/14 at 4:06pm
post #5033 of 5281
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
I know, but the only reason I haven't is that I don't feel I'm at a point where I can post graphs as 'evidence', because there's some issues I want to work out before I do with the quirks of my setup (DefTech Mythos ST). When I do I'll put it up.

The other issue is that I had originally hoped to develop a thread that would encourage others to use the R-972 (with or without other assisted technology)...


Well I think you have plenty to post and can always add more later.  As for encouraging use of the Sherwood R-972, that AVR's dedicated  thread is a natural spot and your Trinnov results are encouraging so I'm sure are welcome there. :)  Again, the thrust of my suggestion is ease for you.

post #5034 of 5281
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post

Nothing like that - just HDMI inputs/outputs being used creatively with the standard capabilities of the Oppo 103, to avoid some reported functionality issues with the 972. You can look at the R-972 thread if you want to see the "why". I'm still working so I'll PM you later tonight.

I will check out the 972 thread, and probably read your PM tomorrow. 2-1/2" of snow down right now and I am going to vege in bed watching TV til I fall asleep. Headed to MX Sat morn and will be at an airport hotel tomorrow evening.

Jeff
post #5035 of 5281
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post


Or...does anyone have an interest in a comparative REQ platform thread, using a common framework (AustinJerry's REW guide) as a way to conduct any comparisons? There's been one or two on AVS, but AFAIK they've died down.

+1 And as far as the complexity of establishing a control group, I would be interested in your "OOTB" results with each as this might be more representative of an end users experience with each system. Just imagine the complexity if you add room treatments or any other variables to the mix. Thanks again for your commitment to this endeavor.
post #5036 of 5281
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Ouch. Are there any reasonably priced, i.e. essentially FREE, room correction technology alternatives to Audyssey?

Have there been any comparison reviews between Audyssey and Trinnov? Between Audyssey and ... anything? I've never seen any.

Jeff - there is also Acourate for a PC, which is only a bit cheaper than Dirac.

http://www.audiovero.de/en/acourate.html


So, the question becomes, with something like Dirac or Acourate running on a PC, why does one need a prepro at all? Each of them, by the way, goes up to at least 96k, whereas Audyssey remains restricted to 48k on all consumer electronics.
post #5037 of 5281
See here: and prepare to make your head hurt trying to get MC external sources to play/get processed in real time. And reading about the capabilities of pro audio DAC cards.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1476117/how-to-replace-your-home-theater-pre-pro-with-a-htpc
Edited by sdrucker - 1/4/14 at 3:10pm
post #5038 of 5281
I realize how daunting PC audio can be. I did not say it would be easy or that all the pieces are even there yet, certainly not in easy to use, plug 'n play form. So, it is another rabbit hole to get lost in, potentially. But, I have been thinking about using an external DAC stack via USB, something like Exasound Mch DAC but with hi Rez PCM to utilize the room EQ in the PC. This might overcome difficulties trying to get a multi-coax card, like the Lynx, working. Just toying in my mind with the idea for now. I realize that this would not save any money over something like a Marantz 8801, but it might offer better performance via a non-Audyssey EQ package and elimination of HDMI jitter issues.

OT, I know. But, we do not seem to have much else to talk about in this thread, since Audyssey PRO is pretty much done from a development standpoint.
post #5039 of 5281
Go for it. Extra credit if you get it to work with JRiver and Dirac RCS smile.gif.

Plenty of room in the esoteric 'Beyond Audyssey' rabbit hole.
post #5040 of 5281
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post

See here: and prepare to make your head hurt trying to get MC external sources to play/get processed in real time. And reading about the capabilities of pro audio DAC cards.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1476117/how-to-replace-your-home-theater-pre-pro-with-a-htpc

Wow, apparently I have some readin' to do. The first page Nyal is claiming success ......

Jeff
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