Purpose of flat response below 20Hz - Why does it matter? - Page 5

How do you push a scene too hard? I tend to set the volume to a certain level and forget it.

For WOTW, maybe a -5 dB below reference for the DTS version. That is a nice semi loud volume level.

Does anyone really play WOTW at full reference level?

Check out that sloppy guy, Randy Thom. Dude has no clue what the spectra is of any of the effects he designs.

Still, a LOT of top movie producers are allowing him to clog up the headroom of the format with irrelevant, unmonitored, unintended artifacts.


Mars Needs Moms (2011) Sound Designer
Mars Needs Moms (2011) Rerecording Mixer (Skywalker Sound)

Despicable Me (2010) Sound Design Consultant (Skywalker Sound)

How to Train Your Dragon (2010) Sound Design

Percy Jackson and the Olympians: The Lightning Thief (2010) Rerecording Mixer (Skywalker Sound)
Percy Jackson and the Olympians: The Lightning Thief (2010) Supervising Sound Designer

Coraline (2009) Sound Designer
Coraline (2009) Rerecording Mixer

Disney's A Christmas Carol (2009) Sound Designer
Disney's A Christmas Carol (2009) Rerecording Mixer (Skywalker Sound)

Ice Age: Dawn of the Dinosaurs (2009) Supervising Sound Designer/ Rerecording Mixer

Bolt (2008) Sound Designer
Bolt (2008) Rerecording Mixer

Dr. Seuss' Horton Hears a Who (2008) Supervising Sound Editor
Dr. Seuss' Horton Hears a Who (2008) Sound Re-recording Mixer
Dr. Seuss' Horton Hears a Who (2008) Sound Designer

Madagascar: Escape 2 Africa (2008) Sound Designer

Standard Operating Procedure (2008) Sound Supervisor

Bee Movie (2007) Sound Designer

Beowulf (2007) Sound Re-Recording Mixer (Skywalker Sound )
Beowulf (2007) Sound Designer

Enchanted (2007) Supervising Sound Editor
Enchanted (2007) Sound Re-Recording Mixer
Enchanted (2007) Sound Designer

Ratatouille (2007) Rerecording Mixer (SkyWalker Sound )
Ratatouille (2007) Sound Designer

The Simpsons Movie (2007) Sound Designer

Eragon (2006) Sound Re-Recording Mixer
Eragon (2006) Supervising Sound Editor
Eragon (2006) Sound Designer

Ice Age: The Meltdown (2006) Sound Mixer
Ice Age: The Meltdown (2006) Sound Design
Ice Age: The Meltdown (2006) Supervising Sound Editor

Monster House (2006) Supervising Sound Mixer
Monster House (2006) Sound Designer

Over the Hedge (2006) Sound Mixer

Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire (2005) Supervising Sound Editor
Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire (2005) Sound Designer

War of the Worlds (2005) Additional Sound Design

Ghost in the Shell 2: Innocence (2004) Sound Designer (Skywalker Sound )

Shrek 2 (2004) Sound Designer

The Incredibles (2004) Supervising Sound Editor
The Incredibles (2004) Rerecording Mixer
The Incredibles (2004) Sound Designer

The Polar Express (2004) Sound Designer
The Polar Express (2004) Rerecording Mixer

Darkness Falls (2003) Sound Designer
Darkness Falls (2003) Rerecording Mixer

Lara Croft Tomb Raider: The Cradle of Life (2003) Supervising Sound Designer
Lara Croft Tomb Raider: The Cradle of Life (2003) Rerecording Mixer

Windtalkers (2002) Re-Recording Sound Mixer
Windtalkers (2002) Rerecording Mixer

Final Fantasy: the Spirits Within (2001) re-recording mixer
Final Fantasy: the Spirits Within (2001) Sound Designer

Osmosis Jones (2001) Sound Designer

The Iron Monkey (2001) re-recording mixer

Cast Away (2000) Sound Designer
Cast Away (2000) re-recording mixer

What Lies Beneath (2000) Sound Designer
What Lies Beneath (2000) re-recording mixer

Arlington Road (1999) Sound Designer
Arlington Road (1999) re-recording mixer

Bicentennial Man (1999) re-recording mixer

Forces of Nature (1999) Sound Designer

Snow Falling on Cedars (1999) re-recording mixer

The Iron Giant (1999) Sound Design

Stepmom (1998) re-recording mixer

Contact (1997) Sound Design
Contact (1997) re-recording mixer

Mimic (1997) Sound Design

Starship Troopers (1997) Sound Designer

Chain Reaction (1996) Sound Designer

Mars Attacks! (1996) re-recording mixer
Mars Attacks! (1996) Sound Designer

The Frighteners (1996) Sound Designer
The Frighteners (1996) re-recording mixer

Jumanji (1995) Sound Designer
Jumanji (1995) re-recording mixer

Nine Months (1995) Sound Design

Species (1995) re-recording mixer

Forrest Gump (1994) Sound Designer
Forrest Gump (1994) Rerecording Mixer

Miracle on 34th Street (1994) re-recording mixer
Miracle on 34th Street (1994) Sound Design

Homeward Bound: the Incredible Journey (1993) Audio

The Dark Wind (1993) special effects sound designer

The George Balanchine s The Nutcracker (1993) Sound Designer
The George Balanchine s The Nutcracker (1993) Rerecording Mixer

The Saint of Fort Washington (1993) re-recording mixer

A Brief History of Time (1992) Sound Effects
A Brief History of Time (1992) Rerecording Mixer

Backdraft (1991) Rerecording Mixer (Skywalker )

Cry Baby (1990) sound rerecording mixer

Wild At Heart (1990) sound rerecording mixer
Wild At Heart (1990) Sound Designer

Always (1989) Foley Artist

Romero (1989) sound rerecording mixer

Colors (1988) Sound Design
Colors (1988) sound rerecording mixer

Tucker: the Man and His Dream (1988) sound recording mixer

The Couch Trip (1988) sound rerecording mixer

The Thin Blue Line (1988) sound rerecording consultant

Gardens of Stone (1987) sound rerecording mixer

Spaceballs (1987) Sound Design
Spaceballs (1987) sound rerecording

Howard the Duck (1986) Sound Designer
Howard the Duck (1986) sound re-recording mixer

Latino (1985) sound rerecording
Latino (1985) Sound Design

The Mean Season (1985) sound rerecording

Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom (1984) sound rerecording mixer

Star Trek III: The Search for Spock (1984) Sound Effects

Koyaanisqatsi (1983) Sound Effects

Never Cry Wolf (1983) sound rerecording

Return of the Jedi (1983) sound recording
Return of the Jedi (1983) sound rerecording

Rumble Fish (1983) sound effects recording
Rumble Fish (1983) sound recording

The Right Stuff (1983) sound rerecording

The Empire Strikes Back (1980) Sound Effects

Apocalypse Now (1979) sound recording (post-production)

Here's a recent film: HTTYD with an example of the "unintended" ULF that Mr. Thom incompetently left on the soundtrack.



Does this <20 Hz tidbit matter? Sheesh... even my neighbors across the street could answer that one without leaving their living room.

Sarcasm aside, thanks go to Mr. Thom who has pushed the envelope of the state of the art of foley and sound design for over 30 years, and who, among his many other prestigious awards and accolades, holds spots on our own 5 STAR BASS list for 3 different movies. Those who would accuse him of inadequate monitoring, ignorance of spectral content, or levy any other lame allegation should really pay closer attention to the state of the art and less attention to their egos.

Bosso

Bosso

I own most of the earlier classic Seagal movies. US1 and US2 are the best of the bunch.

How do they monitor sub 10 Hz content on the main channels (AKA bass not the dedicated LFE channel)?

Are they flat to 3 Hz on the main channels, or are they 20 dB down (or whatever) at 3 Hz?

Well, I sometimes have my overall LFE elevated but not so much recently. I don't really watch at reference level either but the reason why I am so cautious is because I am somewhat attached to my lovely 18's and they don't make them anymore. Nor can I depend on a recone or replacement if I were to break one. I mentioned earlier that I run my vented enclosure with no highpass filter. Just takes the wrong day to make my life even worse. No thank you. Maybe when I am 100% sealed I will be more aggressive with that kind of material but my brain tells me to be cautious when applicable.



Me too! You sir, have fantastic taste in action movies.

That would be a great question for...... Randy Thom!

Get on it, JPC. We're doing all the work in here.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post20711392


"I also asked Jeff about the subsonic filter. He said it'd be nice to have one, but not probably necessary. He said try it without it first and see if you mind - he said I didn't have to fear damaging the driver with the amp I was using. At worst I might get a muddier sound on some clips with ULF below the tuning frequency. I need to research cheap subsonic filters...I like the price of the FMODs for $25, but the reviews are all over the board!?!?"

Smart ass. I posted under "mdm1699" but got banned for saying that I did not find SVS subs to be musical(after owning 4). I love this thread because it stresses dynamics, full audio range, and economics. Sometimes this forum just feels like a forum dedicated to sub 20hz. I think this convo reminds us of what the forum is about.

Yes, in general a ported design does need protection below the tuning point because the driver will unload. This is not a new discussion though, its been posted 100s of times. Comercial designs generally will have the SSF built into the amp so its not a topic on this forum but anyone that builds subwoofers knows there is a HPF requirement when building ported subs. Since the Cap is sold as a passive design and we can throw pro amp power at them then yes protection is required IF the model of the design dictates it.

Im not sure how any of that matters when answering the OPs question. He asked why does < 20Hz matter and the simple fact is that there is content below 20hz even content below 10Hz. "Content" is defined simply as content, it does not matter if someone thinks its crap content or not, its simply content.

Again, I choose to have the ability to play that content in my room. I also accept that you do not choose to have that ability because of budget, tools available, room constraints or any other reason.

Validating either of our choices is not even needed, what is needed is just the fact that there is content down low and people need to decide how important it is to them.

Well that's nice and reasonable. Much better than the elitist and pretentious below. BTW, I thought you retired from AVS.
I believe you have much to offer the forum Penn, the chest beating below can stay retired though.

Bored traveling, couldnt resist the same old topic....little addictions are always hard to break

Sorry for the chest beating but the real point is that once people experience ultra ULF designs its hard to go back. Its like replacing a 5 year old PC. You never knew what the real difference in speed would be but once you are use to the new one, try going back to a slow machine. Its all about experience and reference POVs.

I suggest people experience as much as they can then form an opinion.

I ask everyone this. If you could have 4 Funky Waves LMS5400 sealed design in your room would you say no?? Then would you EQ the subs to have a filter at 20Hz to block < 20Hz content??

I think there isnt a question that if budgets and room allow for it people would have the best possible solution period. Yes, I would say 4 of those are pretty much hard to beat when $$$ are no object.

Here is what Randy said on a public forum. Trouble is, he thinks that the low frequencies should be placed on the .1 LFE channel!

----------------------


Re: Building in Low Freq


Sounds in the range of 30 to 80 hertz are used fairly often in films
these days. Some would say too often. It can be a good way to make a
moment powerful without making it seem too loud. We tend to associate
very low frequencies with dramatically powerful events... like
earthquakes... and earthquakes are rarely loud. These very low
frequency sounds are often derived from sounds already in the mix.
There are hardware and software "sub harmonic generators" that will
into which you can feed an explosion, or anything that already has
some significant low frequency content, and the sub generator will
produce lower harmonics of that sound. And sometimes the 30 to 80
hertz sounds are produced on their own. For those who might not be
aware of it, the ".1" in a "5.1" sound system is for these extremely
low frequencies. Of course, many theaters won't reproduce those low
frequencies accurately, and some won't reproduce them at all, so it
isn't wise to depend TOO much on them.

It's generally considered a bad idea to have continuous sub material
in a long sequence. Much better to use it sparingly. That way it has
more impact when you do use it.

Randy

cool quote. I agree with the idea of not having long sequences. My best experiences with bass performance is when there is tight/sharp sequencies then silence and then more sequencies. The impact is incredible.

Another question... if < 20Hz doesn't matter then why do we have a sticky listing the best bass movies?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1333462

For the people that do do ULF: how about the *flat* part of the question in the subject line?

I agree. A good example would be the safe explosion scene of The Italian Job. Silence, then baaboom!








Why is it that the old bass thread was given up for dead? Even now, there is limited information on the new thread.

Also, who made up the rule that the best bass is defined as the best infra? There is no Acadamy Award category for best infrasound!

The better question would be flat to what frequency at what SPL level when measured at the listening position?

I had hoped we could leave it to the ULF people to say what the better question might be.

They monitor all of the content of the soundtrack visually, the same way I do, or did you really think I could somehow know there was strong 2-6 Hz content in the HTTYD scene, or any other scene, just by listening to the soundtrack, without SpecLab?

Since <20 Hz is

How do you imagine they sync the onset of an explosion to the video of the explosion? By listening and punching in by ear? Not.

With modern soundtrack editing software you can look at any slice of BW, zoom, change levels, monitor dBFS by color or bars or any number of ways, monitor peaks, sync transient peaks with a single frame of video, etc., etc., etc.

By selecting a part of the soundtrack, then selecting; Frequency Spectrum View, you can then "Select different parts of the audio file to apply actions to".

One of those many "actions" options is a high pass filter. That simple action would eliminate any possibility of "unintended" ULF.

If ULF were not possible to monitor... well, never mind. My head's about to explode just having to bring this to your attention at all, much less writing in detail for a person who isn't reading anyway.

For anyone else who's actually interested in the facts of the matter, not only is ALL audio content able to be precisely monitored in every way, it's imperative to a good soundtrack, to faithfully encoding and mixing the effects that sound designers go to great lengths to create and to avoid exceeding the digital red line.

Bosso

Flat response at the listening position is imperative to hearing what's on the soundtrack.

SpecLab also helps illustrate this by comparing the digital direct feed to the mic'd version from the LP.

Before anyone gets all flustered, everyone is free to leave an untended, wild +/- 10dB FR, or a roll off at 20 Hz, or to bump the sub +15dB hot. I'm just answering the question.

Frequency response non-linearity (which includes early roll off) is distortion. Lots of folks like non-linearities of all sorts, but that doesn't negate the fact that they're distortions nonetheless.

Bosso

If I could fit all that into one sentence... I'd make it my new sig. Well put, Bosso.

While we're not talking about *hearing*, I take it your answer was meant to mean *fidelity*, bossobass: why speculate about (perception of) distortion when we might as well be accurate!?

By monitoring obviously I meant listening with your ears.

No one gives a crap about how audio looks on a screen any more than they care about how video sounds!







Randy seems to think that a sound designer does not have that kind of power, but what does he know!

Per Randy:

"Don't get me wrong, I love the fact that there is an individual, the Director, who gets to determine, to the degree physically possible, what the movie is going to look and sound like. I hate working for committees. And obviously it isn't appropriate for everybody working on a film to be constantly tugging the Director's sleeve with suggestions. That said . . . While it's considered entirely appropriate for the Production Designer and Director of Photography to make suggestions about diverse aspects of the movie, it flirts with professional suicide for the Composer or Sound Designer to do the same."

Its a sticky and there is a good list of movies for those who do care about it. There are other active lists online. Again the point is that there are those who care about sub 20Hz content enough to gather movie data and organize them. that alone answers the OPs question.

As for any awards. Again, why does content have to have the stamp of approval from the academy or some people online. If someone likes HTTYD ( My kids and I do) and they like the bass (my kids and I do) then why not just acknowledge that its okay for them to like it?? Why do people always have to approve what others like or dislike?

Again, its all subjective opinion, the only thing that actually matters is what is in the content, intented or even unintended.

If the content has something below 20Hz, below 10Hz. People like me would like to experience that content. I recommend anyone that has not experienced a system that produces atleast 110dB at 10Hz, try to experience one THEN make a decision.

I think that the point that DS is trying to make is that we may never own material that utilize that extension. Also, it can get expensive and time consuming. If we do own material that utilize that extension we may only hear it for less that 1% of the total time spent viewing movies/listening to music, if that much. I may be sincerely impressed with the ULF performance of your system. That does not mean that I like the dynamics or find the ULF performance necessary.

As for the ULF Movies thread, I don't think most people think that those are indeed the "best movies". Just the "best movies for ULF". Do we re-watch those "demo" movies or just the "demo" scenes?

This thread borders on fascinating. I'm really curious as to when we will discover who's opinion on whether sub 20hz matters is the right one. I.e., is it the ones who care about sub 20hz performance and therefore believe it matters and are willing to design their system to achieve this regardless of cost or size, or is it the ones who don't care about sub 20hz performance and therefore don't think it matters and therefore don't bother trying to achieve it? Hmmm...one of these opinions HAS to be right, right?

Where's ssabripo and his infamous popcorn jpg when you need him?

Both matter, though one can never tell listening to some of you sub 20 posters. I wouldn't have experienced great subs if I never ventured down this road. However, it doesn't mean that a few words of caution is a bad thing. I am not sure why it makes some of us feel good about ourselves to make-believe that we are envied. This is a forum so there should be multiple perspectives.

Only you would attempt to mix ULF with your ears. (ROFLOL)

Of course, you'd need a subwoofer. Any plans to get one soon?






I see, once again, you don't even know what he's saying here. Hey, but you keep posting, J. Sooner or later you'll convince someone you're right.

Let's see if we've got this JPC recording standards list right:

1) Mix in any sound effect. It's bandwidth is irrelevant because if there's <20 Hz content you can't hear it anyway and mistakes like that earn you a bonus and lots of future work on mega-million dollar blockbusters.

2) Put all of that ULF in the front channels so everyone will know it was a mistake.

3) Recommend a sub that rolls off at 25 Hz because that's all we can afford to mix the soundtrack with.

4) Always use spectrograms to prove your points because no one gives a crap about how audio looks on a screen.

5) When you get called on this lunatic production philosophy, quote Randy Thom and Ben Burtt out of context as proof that they follow the JPC method as well.

6) Clear the mantel for the Oscars.

Bosso

DS point was that people sacrifice 30Hz to 80Hz when they try to obtain 10Hz to 30Hz performance. I post that its all choice and all that really matters is UNDERSTANDING and ACCEPTING compromises that might come with any design choice. If I had a hard on for the best response from 60Hz to 150Hz in my family room I could easily add sealed subs but I choose not to fuss over the nitty gritty in that room. You do realize that you are on an audio forum where the last 1% is fussed over 99.9% of the time? I mean there are people that go nuts over cables, DACs, Amps and so on so when you ask is the 1% worth it, you have to consider the audience. 99.999% of the population will not care...That is easily understood. I have 3 friends with BOSE systems and the enjoy their movies...more power too them but they also always love coming to my room knowing its better then going to a real movie theater.

You also are posting like we are demanding you to have ULF performance. None of us have said that. I will say give your self a month with a high performance ULF system then try and go back to another design. Until you have had the proper reference points you will never know what conclusions you will have. You may still say your okay without it and that may depend on the content you love but I will keep posting it ends up being just a choice.



Yes, everyone knows they are the best movies for ULF, not one post or opinion about them is trying to validate if they are quality movies (WOTW isnt a movie I will ever watch but it does have a great bass scene that can show off a great system). The list just exists and people can choose to enjoy the bass scenes.

I have a custom HT room, I have two custom DVDs to show many bass scenes. When I do a demo for friends Im definitely showing off those scenes so to answer your question about re-watching.....I say both. I have watched Matrix, LOTR, Iron man movies probably 100+ times over the years.

Even with all the HT stuff etc and having 600 movies on my HTPC system and I still watch network movies with their commercials Matrix was on again last night...watched it on a 22" screen, TV speakers and with commercials

THere is no right or wrong.

1. If you do not care about hearing < 20Hz content then its okay.

2. If you do care about hearing < 20Hz content then its okay.

I do hope those making a choice have atleast had a proper reference point before they make a conclusion because they might not know what they are missing.