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Purpose of flat response below 20Hz - Why does it matter? - Page 15

post #421 of 585
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

With due respect, you agree to "play along" when you started it? That gave me a chuckle.

My son is like you. Every time he sits in the sweet spot to listen, he first claps his hands and says "Man, the reverberation in this room is unbearable!"

I concede the fact to him and promise some day I'll get around to it.

The point I'm always trying to make is that, using this example, I never tell him he's an extremist and quote some made-up numbers about what percentage of the global population doesn't care about reverberation.

I'm not so sensitive that I get defensive and start arguing from a position that's indefensible. Rather, I agree with him because he's a smart guy and in this case he's absolutely right.

On these forums, if someone posts facts that have to do with... um, let's see... Subwoofers, Bass and Transducers... good on him. Facts are the needed ingredient. If certain facts of the matter are irrelevant to you, move on to what is relevant to you. Don't instead tell the poster why, if it's irrelevant to you, it's somehow useless information and he's extreme and alone in the world vs everyone else.

When a member starts a thread that asks "The purpose of flat response below 20 Hz - why does it matter?", there should only be 1 group involved. Instead there are immediately 2 groups involved. People who post the answer to that question and people who post why <20 Hz doesn't matter, while calling the first group silly names, disparaging their allotment of disposable income, etc.

Fact is, before the first page of this thread was done, there were 2 members, both of us having been active members for 10 years, answering the question with facts and everyone else was babbling about what subs they've owned, what they prefer as a LF cutoff point (which, surprise, just happened to coincide with their latest sub upgrade), how <20 Hz is inaudible and so, irrelevant, how human hearing isn't flat, Fletcher/Munsen and every other completely irrelevant point to the question asked.

[Sorry James, but...] One member actually posted this:



Hmmmm... if one considers the cost and space, it's just specsmanship and it reeks a bit daft? OK. But wait, then he spends $3,000.00, deals with 16 cubes of sub and gets nothing below 15 Hz.

No one told him he spent too much, his subs are too big or he lacks extension for the space and $$ spent, did they? Much less call his 15 Hz specsmanship or his discretionary spending choices daft.

And, what on earth does this have to do with answering why flat to below 20 Hz matters?

Bosso


Well. I suppose including my full post and providing some context would better serve this thread, but, oh well.

More imperatively, the assertion that the literal interpretation of this thread title precludes those who believe there is little to no value in sub 20 hz output is of course absurd. If someone posted a thread entitled "why does the global temperature rising 1/4 of a degree annually matter" and you believed it to matter little to not at all, would the posting of your opinion/empirical evidence be without merit?

1. I consider the time, money, zeal, space allotment, time, and money that I have dedicated to this hobby to be very much extreme in every good sense of the word. 2. That being the case, I still make value judgments regarding performance- just as eveyone else is free to do.

And since I have experienced low-digit frequency reproduction, I have the right to deem the exercise/goal how I see it. That said, I would likely agree that my characterization of it was a bit hyperobolic/coarse- just prolly bolstered by a good number of friends who share a similar feeling after doing the same.

I will tell you that if I did see even marginal value in it, I would be much less inclined to tell anyone that it's money and time daftly spent- espeically when there's so many other aspects of SQ where you can spend less and get more.

3. I spent $1500. A decent ball park from $3000. But still $1500 open to other's speculation. They have that right. EDIT: that was off my assertion of (2) Captivators. My apologies, you are correct.

4. My railing against sub 20hz output is obvious: I feel it's a horse of little value to stud.

The question of "why does flat to below 20hz matter" is a blatantly open question and not one to be taken to the literal bone, so I'm a bit perplexed by your questioning of what my response has to do with it.

This is a forum bosso and you know full-well the purpose/orientation of the question and that it's begging for a (potentially invaluable) pro/con discourse that pops up around here every so often.

And as far as anyone criticizing my choice: that's certainly their perogative. I can live with it. Open to it, actually.

I would admit to priding myself in extracting every dollar I can performance-wise without delving into DIY and/or a complete aesthetic bankruptcy, but perhaps that's my first-misstep to others(but I can live with it).

To me, this thread was posited with the goal/spirit of surmising the value of sub 20hz content and therefore everyone's experiences and opinions regarding it should be welcome and valued.

Respectfully,
James
post #422 of 585
Pros and cons of infrasounds in a home theater.
post #423 of 585
It sure is difficult to accurately communicate in writing without all the normal visual cues we are used to....that being said we all have likes and dislikes, inclinations, favorites, varying levels of intelligence, etc etc.
I like this hobby, I listen to my stuff every day so its value to me is more appreciated than some of the other fine objects in my life. Yes we all have our right to opinions, but, I try to constantly remind myself that opinions can be right or wrong, some being based on facts and others, well, not so much.
I would love to be able to own and listen to a system that is capable of reproducing anything and everything that is possible to be recorded, but for now, it remains a goal. Its over all value to me in my life can only be determined by me. Personally, I make sure other higher priority (to me) expenditures take place first.
This is a forum devoted to a special interest group. I don't however understand the "my dog is bigger than your dog" approach many take but even if I don't understand it I find it enjoyable and interesting to read as evidenced by my constantly searching for the latest debate. It is kind of like a show unto itself.
post #424 of 585
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bone215 View Post

It sure is difficult to accurately communicate in writing without all the normal visual cues we are used to....that being said we all have likes and dislikes, inclinations, favorites, varying levels of intelligence, etc etc.
I like this hobby, I listen to my stuff every day so its value to me is more appreciated than some of the other fine objects in my life. Yes we all have our right to opinions, but, I try to constantly remind myself that opinions can be right or wrong, some being based on facts and others, well, not so much.
I would love to be able to own and listen to a system that is capable of reproducing anything and everything that is possible to be recorded, but for now, it remains a goal. Its over all value to me in my life can only be determined by me. Personally, I make sure other higher priority (to me) expenditures take place first.
This is a forum devoted to a special interest group. I don't however understand the "my dog is bigger than your dog" approach many take but even if I don't understand it I find it enjoyable and interesting to read as evidenced by my constantly searching for the latest debate. It is kind of like a show unto itself.

Everything you just said, man.
post #425 of 585
Quote:
I don't however understand the "my dog is bigger than your dog" approach many take but even if I don't understand it I find it enjoyable and interesting to read as evidenced by my constantly searching for the latest debate. It is kind of like a show unto itself.

I suspect for some, my dog is bigger than your dog approach, might be the driving force behind the pursuit for infrasounds.
post #426 of 585
Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

Pros and cons of infrasounds in a home theater.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

I suspect for some, my dog is bigger than your dog approach, might be the driving force behind the pursuit for infrasounds.
I suspect an immature desire for attention, and to be argumentative, causes someone to bring up a thread that is over a year old and has been dormant for 10 months. What is your agenda?

.
post #427 of 585
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

I suspect an immature desire for attention, and to be argumentative, causes someone to bring up a thread that is over a year old and has been dormant for 10 months. What is your agenda?
.

You know you don't need to respond to this old thread, I ignore many threads that don't interest me. Argumentaive, isn't that pretty much part and parcel of the AVS forum, arguments are a plenty around here. Also, I have a point and argument to make about the pros and cons of chasing infrasounds in a home theater. Instead of starting a brand new thread we are encouraged to post in an existing thread that deals with the same topic. I thought I could just reopen or bump this one to make, yes, my arguments. However I see that you object to me making are dealing with this subject at all.
post #428 of 585
Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

. Instead of starting a brand new thread we are encouraged to post in an existing thread that deals with the same topic. I thought I could just reopen or bump this one to make, yes, my arguments..

um, so what are they? ...cause I don't see that you've made any.
post #429 of 585
Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

I suspect for some, my dog is bigger than your dog approach, might be the driving force behind the pursuit for infrasounds.

Or for some the ability to playback what is encoded by the audio mixer, sit back, and enjoy.

And of course you also get people here with man's syndrome.. They can't stand that their system cannot perform with others...


Hmm maybe I will build a small subwoofer with a 4" woofer and call it the Napoleon model.... Can you imagine how tight the bass would be with that 4" driver in a small enclosure??? rolleyes.gif
post #430 of 585
Quote:
Originally Posted by wlhungdude View Post

um, so what are they? ...cause I don't see that you've made any.

Exactly. I'd like to know too. He comes across like if you have a subwoofer capable of <20hrz that your committing a crime against humanity rolleyes.gif
post #431 of 585
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

Pros and cons of infrasounds in a home theater.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

I suspect for some, my dog is bigger than your dog approach, might be the driving force behind the pursuit for infrasounds.
I suspect an immature desire for attention, and to be argumentative, causes someone to bring up a thread that is over a year old and has been dormant for 10 months. What is your agenda?

.

biggrin.gif
post #432 of 585
Quote:
Originally Posted by wlhungdude View Post

um, so what are they? ...cause I don't see that you've made any.

I think mastermaybe did a pretty good job.
post #433 of 585
I really would like someone from the subwoofer industry to come into this thread, particularly those that are in the design and sales of subwoofer with infrasonic capabilities. I want to know have they did any studies on the affects of infrasounds. I would love it they would share their views.

Also, anyone from the commericial cinema industry, I would like know they don't use infrasonic capable subs or reason why filter sounds below 20hz and whether or not they have read any studies on the affects of infrasounds.
post #434 of 585
Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

I really would like someone from the subwoofer industry to come into this thread, particularly those that are in the design and sales of subwoofer with infrasonic capabilities. I want to know have they did any studies on the affects of infrasounds. I would love it they would share their views.
Also, anyone from the commericial cinema industry, I would like know they don't use infrasonic capable subs or reason why filter sounds below 20hz and whether or not they have read any studies on the affects of infrasounds.

You do know that real life, you know, that little thing we do every single day contains much more infrasonics than any movie would ever contain. Why on earth would you be concerned about the little amount of infrasonics in movies? Like I have said before, the drive to your work or theater has more! Maybe you should stop doing that? I bet you do things everyday that are far worse for your health.
post #435 of 585
Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

I really would like someone from the subwoofer industry to come into this thread, particularly those that are in the design and sales of subwoofer with infrasonic capabilities. I want to know have they did any studies on the affects of infrasounds. I would love it they would share their views.

Also, anyone from the commericial cinema industry, I would like know they don't use infrasonic capable subs or reason why filter sounds below 20hz and whether or not they have read any studies on the affects of infrasounds.

Most commercial cinemas do not have enough isolation between adjacent theaters to allow very strong bass much below 35Hz. The best cinemas tend to not go much below 28-30Hz, and even fewer with all that much output down there. In general it hasn't been a high priority in the budgeting of theater owners.

Donning a fresh flame-suit, rolleyes.gif I'll wear the bulls-eye giving some background to my own story as to what prompted my attention and pursuit of the deepest frequencies. It was certainly more than just chasing a curve on a screen or a specification on a sheet.

I developed the SubMersive in 2005-2006. Previous dedicated rooms I had worked on such as thebland's had consistently showed very strong gain functions into the single digit range from subs with shallow roll offs like a sealed sub. Certainly not a new idea as multi-driver infinite baffle designs have achieved this as well, but the DVD content was starting to include more and more energy below 20Hz. The hurdle of course is getting enough output down low to be useful. The original SubMersive was intentionally designed to have a response giving a high likelihood of smooth transitioning into the VLF transfer curve of more common rooms while also having lots of headroom in the upper octaves where sub EQ (still not yet common) was pretty much required to allow smooth frequency response across the range. The expectation was that mid-size dedicated rooms would use 2 subwoofers where multiples start pushing the the VLF capability into a worthwhile range, and adding more would allow experimentation with EQ to push the deepest frequencies even further.

While I had observed lots of promise and very obvious additions to the VLF energy with early experiments, being a small, bootstrapped start-up I didn't have dozens of SubMersives around nor the free time to test the benefits in extreme cases of VLF capability. Then in early 2006 (about a year after I founded Seaton Sound), a character named tzucc was interested enough in the much talked about Thigpen Rotary Woofer(TRW) that he arranged for a demonstration in his room and invited others from the forum. Understanding what the device should be able to do, I jumped at the opportunity to see first hand if the crazy efforts to reproduce the range below 16-20Hz was actually worth the effort. I hopped a plane out to N California from Chicago to see what it was all about.

While the Thigpen device is not without practical hurdles, the acoustic performance is certain and highly impressive. At the demo (which Keith Yates also attended), Bruce Thigpen had a spectrum analyzer connected to a microphone at the main listening position so we could see what sort of energy was being produced in real time. It was quite impressive with the TRW set a bit hot filling in below the Wilson XS subwoofer in the room. As we got around to playing Master & Commander (DVD version prior to the BluRay mastering castration) I finally spoke up and asked to push the levels up to near reference as I had listened to the scene 100s of times... The resulting reactions and experiences were priceless. cool.gif

If you have a bunch of spare time you can probably find some of our comments from the demo. I recall two rather memorable experiences. The first was scene in SpiderMan 2 when Doc Ock is trying to contain the fusion reaction early in the movie. Just as things started getting out of his control, I felt a shudder and added tension and glanced over at the spectrum analyzer. Sure enough there was a throbbing signal in the 12-14Hz range associated with the reactor overloading. Later with Master & Commander, the cannons are obviously a lot of fun, but what I found more interesting was the visceral effect of the flapping sails from the ship. Check out how the creators recorded both of these sounds and it's no surprise that the extreme VLF reproduction made them sound even more life-like and intense.

In years since I've worked on and delivered a handful of designs, both custom and future production which target high output well below 20Hz through a few different design approaches. I will be the first to point out this goal greatly adds to size and cost, and it should NOT be the top priority of a subwoofer system. But once you nail the range above 25Hz I do believe their is much to be gained with systems that are dynamically linear and then audibly lower in distortion to 10Hz or below. You will never be able to really explore such performance with a single 14" cube, and actually achieving 110-120dB below 15Hz will wreak serious havoc in most non-dedicated spaces. Walls and doors visibly flex or move at such levels. Such pursuits fall squarely into the realm of want and because we can.
post #436 of 585
Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

You know you don't need to respond to this old thread, I ignore many threads that don't interest me. Argumentaive, isn't that pretty much part and parcel of the AVS forum, arguments are a plenty around here. Also, I have a point and argument to make about the pros and cons of chasing infrasounds in a home theater. Instead of starting a brand new thread we are encouraged to post in an existing thread that deals with the same topic. I thought I could just reopen or bump this one to make, yes, my arguments. However I see that you object to me making are dealing with this subject at all.

Ummm.. I'm calling you out. You are the one stating you have an argument to make, but you don't actually post any. You refer to somone else's post, while quoting mine, to say that "he" made a good point. How about yours?? Do you have one? Not mastermaybe's post from , what, 10 months ago, but yours? Just trying to stir the pot?

You revived this thread, for what reason? You haven't contributed anything new to this discussion. Do you have a point ?? I'd like to see any original thought from YOU that's relevant to this discussion, or you should just STFU and sit down: you're just making yourself look ignorant.
post #437 of 585
A giant calmly explaining the way of things to a garden-variety troll, now I've seen it all!
post #438 of 585
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaviorMachine View Post

A giant calmly explaining the way of things to a garden-variety troll, now I've seen it all!

Now we must await the troll's attempt to discredit Mark by stating that Seaton's frequent exposure to ULF has impacted his critical thinking skills. biggrin.gif
post #439 of 585
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

Now we must await the troll's attempt to discredit Mark by stating that Seaton's frequent exposure to ULF has impacted his critical thinking skills. biggrin.gif

Or that Mark is secretly a Nazi who will unleash all his infrasonic subwoofers to the unsuspecting masses in an attempt to takeover the world.
post #440 of 585
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

I really would like someone from the subwoofer industry to come into this thread, particularly those that are in the design and sales of subwoofer with infrasonic capabilities. I want to know have they did any studies on the affects of infrasounds. I would love it they would share their views.

Also, anyone from the commericial cinema industry, I would like know they don't use infrasonic capable subs or reason why filter sounds below 20hz and whether or not they have read any studies on the affects of infrasounds.

Most commercial cinemas do not have enough isolation between adjacent theaters to allow very strong bass much below 35Hz. The best cinemas tend to not go much below 28-30Hz, and even fewer with all that much output down there. In general it hasn't been a high priority in the budgeting of theater owners.



There is a bit more to it than that.

I have evaluated many movie soundtracks on DVD, and most of the time the infra is only located on the main channels. The typical movie LFE channel does not use much content lower than 20 Hz (although there are exceptions to that general observation).

Theaters do not use bass management to any wide extent, so most of the non LFE channel infra would never show up even if there was a capable subwoofer installed for the LFE channel.

A consumer system that uses bass management can reproduce infra that exists on all channels. Even the sound mixers do not hear all of that infra in the mixing room. Home theater systems with capable subwoofers can reproduce infra that is not heard elsewhere.
post #441 of 585
Quote:
Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

Or that Mark is secretly a Nazi who will unleash all his infrasonic subwoofers to the unsuspecting masses in an attempt to takeover the world.

I see you still refuse to believe groups like Nazis expirement with infrasounds. You think its some kind of joke. Its true, look up Sonic Weapons so you can get an understanding.

"Depending on the pitch, infrasound can cause physical pressure, fear, disorientation, negative physical and mental symptoms, explode matter, incapacitate, and kill. For example, in World War II, Nazi propaganda engineers used infrasound to stir up anger in the large crowds that had gathered to hear Hitler. The result was a nation filled with anger and hatred.

Studies show the different ways in which infrasound affects the human body. As infrasound pitches, or cycles per second, decrease, deadly effects on the body increase. Infrasound disrupts the normal functioning of the middle and inner ear, leading to nausea, imbalance, impaired equilibrium, immobilization, and disorientation. Exposure to even mild doses of infrasound can lead to illness. Increased intensities of infrasound can result in death".



I hope the above puts to rest whether or not the Nazis used infrasounds, so let us stop with the insults and get serious.
Edited by Auditor55 - 10/6/12 at 8:49am
post #442 of 585
Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

I see you still refuse to believe groups like Nazis expirement with infrasounds. You think its some kind of joke. Its true, look up Sonic Weapons so you can get an understanding.

"Depending on the pitch, infrasound can cause physical pressure, fear, disorientation, negative physical and mental symptoms, explode matter, incapacitate, and kill. For example, in World War II, Nazi propaganda engineers used infrasound to stir up anger in the large crowds that had gathered to hear Hitler. The result was a nation filled with anger and hatred.
Studies show the different ways in which infrasound affects the human body. As infrasound pitches, or cycles per second, decrease, deadly effects on the body increase. Infrasound disrupts the normal functioning of the middle and inner ear, leading to nausea, imbalance, impaired equilibrium, immobilization, and disorientation. Exposure to even mild doses of infrasound can lead to illness. Increased intensities of infrasound can result in death".

I hope the above puts to rest whether or not the Nazis used infrasounds, so let us stop with the insults and get serious.

post #443 of 585
infrasounds are proven to generate resonances inside your precious bodily fluids
post #444 of 585
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaviorMachine View Post

infrasounds are proven to generate resonances inside your precious bodily fluids
So if I impregnate my wife right after watching War of the Worlds, will my child's head be shaped funny?
post #445 of 585
post #446 of 585
Quote:
Originally Posted by sb1 View Post

So if I impregnate my wife right after watching War of the Worlds, will my child's head be shaped funny?

they will all sound like tibetan throat-singers

even the girls
post #447 of 585
Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

I see you still refuse to believe groups like Nazis expirement with infrasounds. You think its some kind of joke. Its true, look up Sonic Weapons so you can get an understanding.

"Depending on the pitch, infrasound can cause physical pressure, fear, disorientation, negative physical and mental symptoms, explode matter, incapacitate, and kill. For example, in World War II, Nazi propaganda engineers used infrasound to stir up anger in the large crowds that had gathered to hear Hitler. The result was a nation filled with anger and hatred.
Studies show the different ways in which infrasound affects the human body. As infrasound pitches, or cycles per second, decrease, deadly effects on the body increase. Infrasound disrupts the normal functioning of the middle and inner ear, leading to nausea, imbalance, impaired equilibrium, immobilization, and disorientation. Exposure to even mild doses of infrasound can lead to illness. Increased intensities of infrasound can result in death".

I hope the above puts to rest whether or not the Nazis used infrasounds, so let us stop with the insults and get serious.

ROFLMAO.

I'll just leave these here. Humor cleanses the soul.
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
23535640.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-zd3jKPiS3sQ/UDaBIkJjRBI/AAAAAAAAWik/sHSg4im_r9Y/s1600/tin_foil_hat.jpg

signs_tinfoil_hats.jpg

conspiracy.jpg

129140251862864325.jpg
Didn't stop those diabolic nefarious infrasonic voices that is.

Best Regards
KvE
Edited by KMFDMvsEnya - 10/6/12 at 11:16am
post #448 of 585
"Our recently-published paper reviews well-established publications about low frequency hearing by leading scientists in the field of auditory physiology.

It concludes that low frequency sounds that you cannot hear DO affect the inner ear. The commonly held belief that “if you can't hear it, it can't affect you” is incorrect.

The paper shows how the outer hair cells of the cochlea are stimulated by very low frequency sounds at up to 40 dB below the level that is heard.

It shows that there are many possible ways that low frequency sounds may influence the ear at levels that are totally unrelated to hearing sensitivity.

As some structures of the ear respond to low frequency sound at levels below those that are heard, the practice of A-weighting sound measurements grossly underestimates the possible influence of these sounds on the ear. Studies that focus on measurements in the “audio frequency range” (i.e. excluding infrasound) will not provide a valid representation of how wind turbine noise affects the ear.

The high infrasound component of wind turbine noise may account for high annoyance ratings, sleep disturbance and reduced quality of life for those living near wind turbines"




"Scientific Applications and Research Associates (SARA) - This agency's alleged infrasound research showed, "infrasound at 110 - 130 dB would cause intestinal pain and severe nausea. Extreme levels of annoyance or distraction would result from minutes of exposure to levels 90 to 120 dB at low frequencies (5 to 200 Hz), strong physical trauma and damage to tissues at 140 - 150 dB, and instantaneous blastwave type trauma at above 170 dB."

Those studies don't even take into account self imposed infrasound that come from system specifically set up for that purpose. Wind Turbines are designed to produce energy and infrasounds are a side of effect. That may be do to the fact that, according to Tom Noussaine, the first true infrasound subwoofers were not available until the 2008 when SVS introduced the PB13 Ultra and Epik introduced the Conquest to the commercial market. We haven't seen any studies on the effects of Infrasounds in a home theater.
post #449 of 585
Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

".... the first true infrasound subwoofers were not available until the 2008 when SVS introduced the PB13 Ultra and Epik introduced the Conquest to the commercial market..

The PB13 came out in 2007, but there were infrasound subs available long before the PB13. SVS had several earlier models for years that produced infrasound. It's really nothing new. There is also a little company called Velodyne that has been producing infrasound subs at least as far back as the '90's. Maybe you heard of them?

You are just a fountain of useless information. rolleyes.gif
post #450 of 585
You provide no references and simply cherry pick various statements that seem to affirm your premise.

If sound let alone infrasonic sound had effective negative consequences upon the human body it is a wonder why various military forces do not weaponize and utilize them.

Because it is not effective and the conditions in order to achieve the reactions you are implying require prolonged pressurized exposure.

The biggest thing to be taken from your dubious quotes is that prolong exposure to high decibels sounds, be it audible or infrasonic, can have an adverse negative psychological reaction. Physical manifestation of discomfort is extremely unlikely to occur in the home theater environment, let alone any other typical daily scenario of the average person.

Even your unreferenced quote speculates a possible correlation but does not wholly assert it as causation. Never mind the lack of any empirical data to substantiate those hypothesizes.

I really do not understand this ideological crusade you choose to wage in every thread that touches this subject. Let alone your moving goal post premises. One day anything below 20hz is unnecessary and detrimental to health then it is anything below 30hz is the boogie monster of imminent death.

1803a8a5-6e8b-45de-9782-0173c9c20662.jpg

Best Regards
KvE
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