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post #421 of 1773
Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce73 View Post

But didn't she only learn that Nazir's son was killed in the raid -- along with his name -- moments before in the hospital room from Saul?

Saul told her right before she went in for the treatment. She had no prior knowledge before that of what actually happened. It wasn't until she started to phase out that she remembered Brody yelling out Nazir's sons name.
post #422 of 1773
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post

Saul told her right before she went in for the treatment. She had no prior knowledge before that of what actually happened. It wasn't until she started to phase out that she remembered Brody yelling out Nazir's sons name.

(in)conveniently
post #423 of 1773
11 Things the Homeland Finale Did Well, and Four Things That Make Us Nervous for Season 2 (by New York Magazine): http://nymag.com/daily/entertainment...dy-carrie.html (Spoilers for "Homeland," do not watch if you haven't seen the episode yet).
post #424 of 1773
Quote:
Originally Posted by dad1153 View Post

11 Things the Homeland Finale Did Well, and Four Things That Make Us Nervous for Season 2 (by New York Magazine): http://nymag.com/daily/entertainment...dy-carrie.html (Spoilers for "Homeland," do not watch if you haven't seen the episode yet).

This is an excellent observation:
Quote:
The only person in the whole world who knows that Carrie is not only right about Brody, but that she successfully stopped a suicide bombing of the vice-president and other high-level government officials, is Brody.
post #425 of 1773
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikey mo View Post

Probably the best plot idea was the sniper attack to get Brody past the metal detectors.

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Originally Posted by Cal1981 View Post

That was exactly my thought as they hustled everyone past the detectors even while they were alarming like crazy. It would reveal a level of planning and sophistication that Americans might not ordinarily associate with Al Queda ...

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Originally Posted by URFloorMatt View Post

Felt a little contrived to me. What if the VP had chosen to give his speech in a park, as many politicians generally do? Then the whole setup was for nothing.

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Originally Posted by LL3HD View Post

A little contrived considering the look on Brody’s face before the sniper shots. He gave the impression like he had no idea about how he was getting inside. He was sweating bullets.

And then when he meets up with Walker, at their obviously prearranged meeting place, he asks him what he’s doing alive? I understand that there are integral parts purposely unknown to each terrorist but it would make sense to know how to get from point A to point B.

Glad I'm not the only one seeing the plot holes in the planning and execution phase of the coordinated attack.

Have we seen Brody communicating with his Al Queda handler(s) other than the incident with the diplomat (where no logistics were discussed) the video conference with Nazir (again where no logistics were discussed) or the vest maker (where no logistics were discussed)?
Since he seemed to have no knowledge of Walkers existence- exactly how was he planning on slipping by security at the announcement site? It would be unbelievable to think he wouldn't be searched. And then to have the attack masterminds somehow know that the snipers actions would lead to Brody being rounded up and confined with the V.P. seems to be a big leap. As a matter of fact- how did they even know where and when the V.P. was going to announce his candidacy? Wasn't Brody's mission pre-planned months in advance?
Just too many plot holes in this season finale- seems like sloppy/easy writing.
Would have liked to see Brody stand in from of the V.P. exclaim something in Arabic and then flip the switch at which point the vest malfunctions. Walker would have still been alive, and Carrie/Saul would have been vindicated. Brody could then have been used as a double agent in turn for non-incarceration.

Other than the above, kudos to Damien Lewis and Clare Danes for very effective acting. Lewis was particularly excellent in the bunker scene- best acting I've seen in a while.
post #426 of 1773
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikey mo View Post

I too hate to see the VP portrayed as such a bad guy...

Looked like a standard collateral damage decision to me. ;-)

jdg
post #427 of 1773
Anyone (who is fluent) able to translate what Brody said to the tailor in Arabic when he was trying the vest on?

Just curious....
post #428 of 1773
Quote:
Originally Posted by replayrob View Post

Glad I'm not the only one seeing the plot holes in the planning and execution phase of the coordinated attack.

Have we seen Brody communicating with his Al Queda handler(s) other than the incident with the diplomat (where no logistics were discussed) the video conference with Nazir (again where no logistics were discussed) or the vest maker (where no logistics were discussed)?
Since he seemed to have no knowledge of Walkers existence- exactly how was he planning on slipping by security at the announcement site? It would be unbelievable to think he wouldn't be searched. And then to have the attack masterminds somehow know that the snipers actions would lead to Brody being rounded up and confined with the V.P. seems to be a big leap. As a matter of fact- how did they even know where and when the V.P. was going to announce his candidacy? Wasn't Brody's mission pre-planned months in advance?
Just too many plot holes in this season finale- seems like sloppy/easy writing.
Would have liked to see Brody stand in from of the V.P. exclaim something in Arabic and then flip the switch at which point the vest malfunctions. Walker would have still been alive, and Carrie/Saul would have been vindicated. Brody could then have been used as a double agent in turn for non-incarceration.

Other than the above, kudos to Damien Lewis and Clare Danes for very effective acting. Lewis was particularly excellent in the bunker scene- best acting I've seen in a while.

Remember it's not Al Queda that Brody is dealing with, Nazir and his group is seperate. Al Queda sold Brody to Nazir after he was captured (this was explained in the finale). The only plan was to get the VP, I think the plan became more focused once the actions took place after Brody got back. We are not seeing Brody 24/7 so we dont know the minutiae of everything we did, only the few conversations the showed. The way it was explained by the Diplomat was that they only got details of the mission when needed and not much before, so Brody probably didnt know what exactly was going to happen, until right before they went to Gettysburg.

He didnt need to know Walkers plan to know what he needed to do. He would just know that he would have a chance to do what he needed to do to complete his mission. As far as securuty checks go, no one was checked that was part of the main group of people. The only time he would be found out is if he went into the building, at that time he had the SS so the metal detectors were going off for them as well. They "hoped" that the VP would be there, as you could see from Brody's reaction, even he wasnt sure if the VP would show up or not (which is why he kept pressing on the VP's whereabouts). As we discussed before Nazir most likely has someone on the inside (yet to be discovered). The announcement was well known, a few days prior to it happening as well (Brody knew which is really all Nazir needed).

If Brody flipped the switch, it would basically end the series. Nazir's entire plan is based on getting the VP who publicily denied the drone attack and then as we learned expunged it from all records (or so he thought). Now Nazir has switched strategies and is now going to try to kill the VPs ideals while putting his death on hold. Having Brody in such an influential position could benifit Nazir more than the death of the VP (at least for now).
post #429 of 1773
My theory on why Walker didn't kill the elderly woman in her apartment. Back to the scene where she was driving and was pissed for having to stop at the resident's check point. She did made a statement to the police officer that she didn't care for the VP at all! Walker would have taken her out as soon as he was inside her apartment. He hadn't planned to kill her as he left the vent in the tape for her to breath.Walker was expecting the bomb to detonate and kill all of them.She would/will tell her side of the story of capture which would spread the whole terrorisim logic.Just my 2 cents.
post #430 of 1773
Quote:
Originally Posted by LL3HD View Post

A little contrived considering the look on Brody's face before the sniper shots. He gave the impression like he had no idea about how he was getting inside. He was sweating bullets.

And then when he meets up with Walker, at their obviously prearranged meeting place, he asks him what he's doing alive? I understand that there are integral parts purposely unknown to each terrorist but it would make sense to know how to get from point A to point B.

Ill make this short, as I just lost my long reply

The meeting was not prearranged, as Brody went back to the park to take the SD card that carried his message. Walker had already been there and taken the card (his ission was to shoot and miss the true target and get the card to distribute it). Brody knew the card had been taken when he saw the second mark of chalk.

When he saw Walker he was under gunpoint and was a dead man walking until he talked to Nazir. If it wasn't for his fast actions, he would be the one that was dead for failing the mission. At the point of the meeting in the sewer drain, Brody was thinking this was the end which is why he brought his gun.

Since we dont know all the details, it makes it hard for us to know who knows what, but each of them only needed to know enough to complete thier mission, Brody only had one, to get in close quarters with the VP and use the vest. He didnt need to know HOW that was going to happen as he needed to be surprised as everyone else. In this case the less he knew the better, if he had know everything that was going to happen, it might have been too obvious and lead to a mistake.

The Walker thing was a tounge in cheek statement, as Brody already knew Walker was alive, but he was never supposed to. If things had gone as planned, they would ahve carried out thier missions without ever meeting one another and Brody never knowing that Walker never really died).


If you think about it each DID have enough to get from poit A-B without having to know the subset of details that did not pertain to them. As the Diplomat said Nazzir only gives enough information to complete the current task as it pertains to you, besides that, you know nothing.
post #431 of 1773
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post

Remember it's not Al Queda that Brody is dealing with, Nazir and his group is seperate. Al Queda sold Brody to Nazir after he was captured (this was explained in the finale).

Your post was accurate, except I need to nitpick this first statement. As stated by Brody in the finale, he was first captured by the Iraqi Army or insurgents (can't remember which), then he was sold to al Qaeda in Iraq, of which Nazir is apparently a leader.

I believe (but could be mistaken) that Nazir's group was referred to as "al Qaeda" by several characters several times throughout this series.

Doug
post #432 of 1773
Most notably, when Carrie finally spills the beans at the cabin and Brody responds, "You think I'm working for Al Qaeda?!"
post #433 of 1773
Quote:
Originally Posted by dougotte View Post


Your post was accurate, except I need to nitpick this first statement. As stated by Brody in the finale, he was first captured by the Iraqi Army or insurgents (can't remember which), then he was sold to al Qaeda in Iraq, of which Nazir is apparently a leader.

I believe (but could be mistaken) that Nazir's group was referred to as "al Qaeda" by several characters several times throughout this series.

Doug

See below
post #434 of 1773
OK NM you guys were right.
post #435 of 1773
Just to clear things up, The final episode explained that brody was captured by iraqi soldiers early in the war, they sold him to Al qaeda.

Nazir's sons name, Issa, is the arabic name for jesus. It a common name, him yelling it out in sleep won't raise suspicions.
post #436 of 1773
Does anyone else notice Showtime is using 2 different feeds for their cable broadcast and their HD On Demand feeds? The On Demand has no station logo or pop ups, but beyond that the actual picture quality is much better on the Demand feed. There is less compression artifacts and better color reproduction. You instantly notice the difference. They are even using a lower bitrate on the OD and it still looks better.

I know I'm not crazy, because people on other forums have noticed the difference too. The same principal applies to Dexter. Different feeds with the On Demand being much better. It makes no sense to me why they are using 2 different feeds when they have a better source available. Hopefully they change this next year.

Does anyone else notice this?
post #437 of 1773
Quote:
Originally Posted by replayrob View Post

Glad I'm not the only one seeing the plot holes in the planning and execution phase of the coordinated attack.

Have we seen Brody communicating with his Al Queda handler(s) other than the incident with the diplomat (where no logistics were discussed) the video conference with Nazir (again where no logistics were discussed) or the vest maker (where no logistics were discussed)?
Since he seemed to have no knowledge of Walkers existence- exactly how was he planning on slipping by security at the announcement site? It would be unbelievable to think he wouldn't be searched. And then to have the attack masterminds somehow know that the snipers actions would lead to Brody being rounded up and confined with the V.P. seems to be a big leap. As a matter of fact- how did they even know where and when the V.P. was going to announce his candidacy? Wasn't Brody's mission pre-planned months in advance?
Just too many plot holes in this season finale- seems like sloppy/easy writing.
Would have liked to see Brody stand in from of the V.P. exclaim something in Arabic and then flip the switch at which point the vest malfunctions. Walker would have still been alive, and Carrie/Saul would have been vindicated. Brody could then have been used as a double agent in turn for non-incarceration.

A thought occured to me about why Brody wasn't told about Walker and the sniper attack. This is a bit out there, I admit, but if Brody had advance knowledge of the planned attack and even knew about the intentional missing of the VP, his behavior as it was happening might have been far different. He might have appeared to be behaving in a odd manner that could have brought some attention from particularly alert security detail agents. It may not have been suspicious but it could have been noticeable. Witholding this critical part of the plan from Brody would be more evidence of mission planning of almost exquisite detail by Nazir. Whether that is believable is open to debate. Even if one thinks that Nazir could construct such an exotic plan, Brody not questioning how he would get through the sure to be present metal detectors makes no sense. As you said, he had to know that the VP and the hierarchy would be sequestered in the bunker but how did he think that was going to happen if not via an attack of some kind? He had to have some knowledge of the initial action but its not clear how he knew. Given the overall crispness of the writing, these are significant lapses.
post #438 of 1773
Quote:
Originally Posted by StinDaWg View Post

Does anyone else notice Showtime is using 2 different feeds for their cable broadcast and their HD On Demand feeds? The On Demand has no station logo or pop ups, but beyond that the actual picture quality is much better on the Demand feed. There is less compression artifacts and better color reproduction. You instantly notice the difference. They are even using a lower bitrate on the OD and it still looks better.

I know I'm not crazy, because people on other forums have noticed the difference too. The same principal applies to Dexter. Different feeds with the On Demand being much better. It makes no sense to me why they are using 2 different feeds when they have a better source available. Hopefully they change this next year.

Does anyone else notice this?

Glad I did not get hooked on this show until last week, via Comcast OnDemand.....HD PQ/AQ are very good via OD.
post #439 of 1773
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cal1981 View Post

A thought occured to me about why Brody wasn't told about Walker and the sniper attack. This is a bit out there, I admit, but if Brody had advance knowledge of the planned attack and even knew about the intentional missing of the VP, his behavior as it was happening might have been far different. He might have appeared to be behaving in a odd manner that could have brought some attention from particularly alert security detail agents. It may not have been suspicious but it could have been noticeable. Witholding this critical part of the plan from Brody would be more evidence of mission planning of almost exquisite detail by Nazir. Whether that is believable is open to debate. Even if one thinks that Nazir could construct such an exotic plan, Brody not questioning how he would get through the sure to be present metal detectors makes no sense. As you said, he had to know that the VP and the hierarchy would be sequestered in the bunker but how did he think that was going to happen if not via an attack of some kind? He had to have some knowledge of the initial action but its not clear how he knew. Given the overall crispness of the writing, these are significant lapses.

I don't think it was a long term plan but rather developed for the circumstances. Nazir put everything in place-he had two assassins ready to do his bidding and the mole to tell him when the VP would be vulnerable. When the oppurtunity presented itself he created the plan of attack to take advantage of the chance. It was a chess game and Nazir left his options open. Remember, he also had a scheme involving the house by the airport which he apparently abandoned.
post #440 of 1773
Quote:
Originally Posted by dad1153 View Post

11 Things the Homeland Finale Did Well, and Four Things That Make Us Nervous for Season 2 (by New York Magazine): http://nymag.com/daily/entertainment...dy-carrie.html (Spoilers for "Homeland," do not watch if you haven't seen the episode yet).

Quote:


How many more times can Carrie be finally convinced of Brody's innocence, only to make him a suspect again? This was a near-perfect season, but it can't go on indefinitely.

I dunno, but House has done basically this 4-to-5 times per episode for what - 7-8 seasons now!?!?
post #441 of 1773
I was under the impression that a bullet from a high powered sniper rifle would likely have passed through the the woman who was shot and into the VP. (What I know about rifles all comes from watching movies.) He was spattered with blood as if from an exit wound. What happened there?
post #442 of 1773
Watched the Finale again last night and it was even better...The scene with Brodie and his daughter on the phone was terriffic, she really did a great job. The Hospital scene with Saul and Carrie: When she asked about coming back to the CIA, Saul's one word answer and extended look was pure Mandy, and Claire's reaction was perfect. I also enjoyed the after-look with Gordon and Ganza explaining the key scenes in the finale and looking ahead. Showtime is re-running Homeland beg. Jan. 9th...Will probably watch it again...
post #443 of 1773
Just finished watching the season; haven't posted here since back in mid-November. Some final thoughts:

I think it was made pretty clear that Brodie knew he was but one part of this mission and that there were other agents out there working for Nazir. After hearing from Carrie that Walker was still alive, he no doubt figured Walker was in on the plan. For Brodie, it really was just about revenge for Nazir's son's death - an "honor killing" as it were. He really believes it. He's been completely turned.

For Nazir, it was also primarily about revenge, but being an Al Queada kinda' guy, he wanted to make a big terrorist statement too. That's why the whole Walker angle was in there - to make sure the bomb could be detonated inside a building where the damage would be greater. Even that angle was changed on the fly when the original house with the sightline to Marine One's landing pad was compromised. And yes, that call says to me there's still a mole out there.

I don't think there's a "24-esque" evil American politician" plotline here at it pertains to the VP. As was said by someone above, disinformation from official sources is SOP when something like this happens. The VP decided the strike on Nazir was worth the cost no matter the collateral damage - all the redactions to the documents Carrie found were done to cover his tracks. I think the point is that the War on Terror is murky, difficult, and often involves difficult choices. The VP is a hawk, sure, but probably not an unrepentantly evil guy as he would be in Jack Bauer's more simplistic world. This show is full of nuance and is striving to be as authentic as possible.

I thought it was fascinating the way Brodie essentially had a nervous breakdown in the "safe room", and how his daughter unwittingly brought him back to earth. In that moment, he had a moment of clarity and he too changed the plan on the fly. He's still in, but now the goal has been raised. Chilling the way he so easily killed Walker on Nazir's command - for a second time!

When Carrie gets out of the hospital, she will be untethered to the CIA, but not from Saul. She will know she's essentially cracked the case, but the key bit of information - Brodie calling out Nazir's son's name in his sleep - will elude her because of the electro-shock treatment. Her desperate urge to remember will fuel next season's plotline.

I posted some anecdotes about filming here in Charlotte earlier in the thread. There was an airport scene where they neglected to digitally scrub out a "Charlotte Douglas International Airport" sign as Saul passed by. They usually catch those things in post.

Another funny story is how another friend of mine who had an extra part in the CIA offices spent her day on set. Mandy Patinkin kept forgetting or flubbing this one line, over and over. They had to do 47 takes before he finally got it right! They started early in the morning and it was after 5:00 when they finally got to leave - they didn't even get lunch (and the craft services are spectacular on a production like this). At one point Mandy was so embarrassed he turned to the assembled crowd of extras and crew and they all shouted his line in unison. She said she wasn't going back if she got another call to do another scene; showbiz is hell.
post #444 of 1773
I think we're supposed to conclude that the husband/wife with the sightline to the Marine One landing pad was a total decoy/red herring because the President wasn't ever the target.

I'd have to rewatch to know that I'm being consistent with the show, but here's my thinking. The mole knows of Carrie's wiretapping at Brody's house. Carrie is getting close to discovering that Brody is a Muslim and probably has been turned. The mole tells Nasir. Nasir does two things to detract from/end the investigation into Brody: (1) deploys the husband/wife to Virginia to live in a house with sightlines to Dulles and the Marine One landing pad, and (2) reveals that Walker is alive, has been turned, and is now a terrorist.

This results in Saul ending Carrie's operation and redirecting her to the Walker investigation. With the pressure off, Brody is free to buddy up with the VP while Carrie is off chasing down the married couple. (How or why Nasir thought that the VP would be interested in Brody and that circumstances would drive the VP to push Brody to run for Congress remains totally unknown and is probably the only serious weak point in the logic of the series so far.)

I think this fits the plot because it seemed clear that, up until Carrie revealed to Brody that she thought he was a mole, it didn't seem like Brody had any clear orders other than to re-assimilate. It wasn't until the meeting with Nasir that it becomes clear the VP is the target, and that Brody would be the way to get to him.

As far as plot logic goes in a show like this, I think it's important to remember this is not 24. Weeks are passing rather than hours. There is time to think, plan, and adapt to changing circumstances and to set and re-set assets depending on their changing value.

It doesn't have to be, and I don't think it was ever intended to be that in the pilot Brody was released so that he and Walker could become part of a convoluted tag team, wholly unknown to each other, with the purpose of setting the VP up in a false-sniper situation so that Brody could detonate a bomb.
post #445 of 1773
Quote:
Originally Posted by URFloorMatt View Post

I think we're supposed to conclude that the husband/wife with the sightline to the Marine One landing pad was a total decoy/red herring because the President wasn't ever the target.

Doesn't the Veep ever fly on Marine One or use the same landing facility? I still think that was the original plan. Nasir wanted the Veep dead; but if he can now get the top guy too, then revising the plan on the fly is not only showing operational flexibility, it's also more effective in terms of Nasir's long range goals.
post #446 of 1773
In "The Vest," Dana remarks that Brody's scars have faded to the point of barely being visible. This causes Brody to look uncomfortable/nervous. Was there supposed to be some significance to this?
post #447 of 1773
Thread Starter 
Great reading on this page
post #448 of 1773
Quote:
Originally Posted by cuzzin View Post

In "The Vest," Dana remarks that Brody's scars have faded to the point of barely being visible. This causes Brody to look uncomfortable/nervous. Was there supposed to be some significance to this?

A reminder that time heals all wounds. Just part of the healing process IMO.
post #449 of 1773
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Lucca View Post

Watched the Finale again last night and it was even better...The scene with Brodie and his daughter on the phone was terriffic, she really did a great job.

Agreed. She's doing a terrific job portraying a normal, brooding teenager, yet one who's also very intelligent and deep, is disturbed about her family's traumas and is determined to somehow fix things.

Doug
post #450 of 1773
Quote:
Originally Posted by archiguy View Post

I thought it was fascinating the way Brodie essentially had a nervous breakdown in the "safe room", and how his daughter unwittingly brought him back to earth. In that moment, he had a moment of clarity and he too changed the plan on the fly. He's still in, but now the goal has been raised. Chilling the way he so easily killed Walker on Nazir's command - for a second time!

I interpreted Brody's expressions differently. In the safe room, I don't think he had a new plan. When he was confronted by Walker later, his expression showed that he did some quick thinking to come up with his "new plan." Otherwise, he would have been shot on the spot.

Doug
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