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Homeland on SHO - Page 25

post #721 of 1773
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwsat View Post

Scowl -- I always enjoy your contrarian point of view in these threads, They are always well thought out and articulately stated. In this case, though, I could not disagree with you more profoundly.
Good spy fiction has a romantic core, usually one shadowed by a sadness brought about by the moral ambiguity being a spy inevitably entails. I think that Homeland's writers have served well the writers who did this sort of thing best, among them, John le Carre and Graham Greene. My fascination with Homeland stems far more from the intriguing nature of Claire and Brody than it does from admiration of the brilliant job Claire Danes and Damian Lewis have done playing them. In the world of spies, Claire and Brody getting together made perfect sense for both of them, at least from my point of view. Claire initiated the contact because she (rightly) suspected Brody of being involved in a terrorist plot. After that, one thing led to another and I never found myself having to suspend disbelief at an unacceptable level.
You may be right about the romance between Brody's teenaged daughter, Dana, and the evil VP's son. For me though, the jury is still out. For the time being, I am willing to cut the writers some slack on that score. As were others, I thought the writers had made a terrible mistake in deciding to keep Brody alive for a second season. Now, though, I concede that the writers got it right. For that reason, I will wait and see how the teenaged romance develops before reaching any judgment about the wisdom of having launched it.

Totally agree smile.gif

We dont always see the immediate payoff to current plots. I was thinking Brody should ahve died at the end of season 1, BUT since they got renewed, it probably didnt make sense, which is why he is still alive. I am happy they did keep him alive though, becasue the last episode was some of the best drama I ahve seen on recent television. I could care less if Brody and Carrie get together, thats just a side plot to the bigger storyline which I could do with or without. I am giving the writers and show runners some slack though to see where they take this as even the Dana storyline could have implecations into the main plot.
post #722 of 1773
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post

I am happy they did keep him alive though, becasue the last episode was some of the best drama I ahve seen on recent television.

+1. With scenes like that I really don't mind the liberties they take as far as "realistic" goes smile.gif. Claire Danes and Damian Lewis are both simply amazing. As mentioned by another member, what makes these scenes so special is that they don't occur that often. This show is as emotionally involving as it's suspenseful.
post #723 of 1773
Quote:
Originally Posted by lonwolf615 View Post

They had less than 24 hours to turn Brody, and had the impending terrorist attack hanging over their heads.

Good point. I had a problem with how everything seemed rushed, but I guess it needed to be that way.
post #724 of 1773
Many of us here have expressed our admiration for the scene depicting Carrie's interrogation of Brody in Q&A. Today, I saw Andy Greenwald's piece about Q&A in Grantland, which expressed the same sentiment.

Here's the money quote:
Quote:
[T]he long-awaited confrontation on last night's Homeland was shockingly delicate. With tears in her eyes and a hitch in her voice, Carrie Mathison expertly defused the would-be suicide bomber in front of her without the benefit of tricks or tools. It was a bravura performance by both character and actor. Thanks to the dexterous and focused script (by Henry Bromell) and camerawork (by director Lesli Linka Glatter), "Q&A" was also a triumph for small-screen storytelling. Lacking violent explosions and show-off pyrotechnics, Homeland proved that two people in a room talking can be the most riveting sight imaginable. It's the payoff provided by television at its very best: the time to get to know characters and the space to let them soar.
Indeed! Read the whole thing, you'll be glad you did.
post #725 of 1773
I would have turned for Carrie also.. if I was there.. she's so good..
post #726 of 1773
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrLar View Post

I would have turned for Carrie also.. if I was there.. she's so good..

As screwed up as Nazir has made Brody, I understood why Carrie's painfully, even tragically, honest confession that she loved Brody and wanted him to leave his wife and be with her finally moved Brody to totally confess what he had done. In that connection, there was a subtle moment at the end of the scene, which I thought was wonderful. When Carrie tells Brody that they will have their meetings at Carrie's apartment, an expression of joy briefly crosses Brody's face, as if he were a kid on Christmas morning who has just learned that he has been given a pony.
post #727 of 1773
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwsat View Post

As screwed up as Nazir has made Brody, I understood why Carrie's painfully, even tragically, honest confession that she loved Brody and wanted him to leave his wife and be with her finally moved Brody to totally confess what he had done. In that connection, there was a subtle moment at the end of the scene, which I thought was wonderful. When Carrie tells Brody that they will have their meetings at Carrie's apartment, an expression of joy briefly crosses Brody's face, as if he were a kid on Christmas morning who has just learned that he has been given a pony.

Ive had this thought going in my head, even though I know its not true. Carrie knew she needed to get to Brody on a personal level, and knew that using thier past interactions would work. What if what she said was just to get him to break? I know she still has feelings for him, but at the same time I cant help but think that it was a ploy to help break him......Just one of those thoughts that went through my mind when she was interrogating him...
post #728 of 1773
^^^ maybe. But it's pretty obvious that despite what she had to do to break him, she never stopped loving him.

This scene was full of little details that made it incredibly powerful. Their hands (in the car as well), how they looked to each other, the tone of her voice... He probably understood as she confessed that she loved him, that he loves her too; which, even at the cabin, was never really clear and ambiguous.
post #729 of 1773

Enjoyed the episode and, especially that interrogation scene, tremendously.  However, I didn't see Carrie's comments as truly showing her current feelings.  At one time, while she was confused over her belief that Brody was turned, she truly had feelings for him.  But, in that room, I think she was using that simply as a ploy to get him to open up.  I don't believe she was really suggesting he consider leaving his wife for her, but merely probing what she knows is a sensitive area in Brody's psyche.  Her loathing for his betrayal of his country always seems to outweigh her personal feelings.  She's had several scenes where she appeals to him and then quickly turns cold, such as in the hotel room when she confronts him.  Maybe I'm wrong, and it works either way, but I don't accept that she's still in love and choose to believe that the consummate pro in her is guiding her moves.

post #730 of 1773
Quote:
Originally Posted by flint350 View Post

Maybe I'm wrong, and it works either way, but I don't accept that she's still in love and choose to believe that the consummate pro in her is guiding her moves.

Agreed, and Claire is enough of a sociopath to be able to convincingly make that "confession" to almost anyone. Look at how she's used men all through her life, especially if she can get something from them. I'm not sure that even Claire knows whether she was telling the truth or not.
post #731 of 1773
Quote:
Originally Posted by flint350 View Post

I don't believe she was really suggesting he consider leaving his wife for her

I think she was profoundly honest with him. Of course she wasn't *really* suggesting he should leave his wife, but she simply told him how she felt, the kind of things you think but you're not allowed to tell... She knows she had a job to do, but she's doing it using her own, and true, feelings. That's how I understand it.
post #732 of 1773
Quote:
Originally Posted by flint350 View Post

Maybe I'm wrong, and it works either way, but I don't accept that she's still in love and choose to believe that the consummate pro in her is guiding her moves.

But when you're in love with a married man who is potentially a suicide bomber and you work for the CIA, you kinda mess with the conventions in the first place wink.gif
post #733 of 1773
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdgrimes View Post

...Claire is enough of a sociopath to be able to convincingly make that "confession" to almost anyone. Look at how she's used men all through her life, especially if she can get something from them. I'm not sure that even Claire knows whether she was telling the truth or not...
You honestly think Carrie is a sociopath??
post #734 of 1773
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post

Ive had this thought going in my head, even though I know its not true. Carrie knew she needed to get to Brody on a personal level, and knew that using thier past interactions would work. What if what she said was just to get him to break? I know she still has feelings for him, but at the same time I cant help but think that it was a ploy to help break him......Just one of those thoughts that went through my mind when she was interrogating him...

The reason the writing and acting was at a level rarely seen is...we don't know what her motives are. Is she making a play for Brody or just trying to turn him? Why not both? I think she does love him and suspects he's in love at least partly with her. But she's also good enough at her job to use those feelings to get what she needs. When she entered the room Brody had chosen the path he was going to take-stonewall the interrogation and insist he was not wearing the vest. Nothing Danny, and by implication, anyone else, could say or do was going to shake his story. He was on guard and ready to deny anything Carrie might say., Only instead of continuing to try to break his story Carrie went off on a tangent, talking about her feelings. She seemingly bared her soul, revealing her inner self at a primal level. At first Brody suspects a trick but is gradually sucked into talking about their personal relationship. Its the path Carrie wants and she hammers away at him, referring to the cabin over and over. Brody finally says they were playing each other at the cabin, which was the opening she was waiting for. Admitting he was playing her was an unwitting admission of being in the game as much as she was and had deeper motives than just trying to sleep with her. Carrie kept at it, gradually turning the conversation from their personal feelings to the topic of his involvement in terrorism. Each time Brody realized he was close to confessing he fell back on his story and tried to stand firm. But Carrie responded by turning it personal again, professing her love and his betrayal of their bond. Brody defended himself and once she had him focused completely on their personal relationship again gradually led the talk back to Nasir. Brody was smart, he kept drawing back each time he came close to admitting his involement. Carrie was smarter, and kept it up. By confessing her love she was urging him to admit his. As Brody weakened she made it a condition that to prove his feelings he had to admit he had worn the vest. Confused and probably not even sure what they were talking about anymore Brody finally did. Much like Nasir she had stripped him to his core and then rebuilt him. Only it took Nasir 3 years-she did it in 15 minutes. A true master at work-we finally see why the CIA tolerated her instability and impulsiveness. Love him or not, she's good at her job, and willing to use whatever it takes to do it.

At least thats how I see it. YMMV:).
post #735 of 1773
Quote:
Originally Posted by lonwolf615 View Post

At least thats how I see it. YMMV:).

And Estes is an idiot wink.gif
post #736 of 1773
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdgrimes View Post

Agreed, and Claire is enough of a sociopath to be able to convincingly make that "confession" to almost anyone. Look at how she's used men all through her life, especially if she can get something from them. I'm not sure that even Claire knows whether she was telling the truth or not.

x2

Perhaps she's not a sociopath, but she's certainly capable of saying anything to anyone given the proper circumstances. We've seen this demonstrated countless times by her character, regardless of the person getting the lies, including Saul.
post #737 of 1773
I absolutely lost interest last season. I just didn't seem to care for the melodrama. I don't know why, but I decided to give the show another chance this season. (especially
since my Showtime subscription was renewed). All I can say about last night was wow. For "TV" it was very powerful. The acting is fabulous and I never feel like I'm being
preached to. I am completely immersed and enjoying every minute of it.
post #738 of 1773
Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce73 View Post

You honestly think Carrie is a sociopath??

Of course Carrie is a sociopath, or so it seems to me. I have been reading spy fiction for 50 years or more and I have seen few if any spies, who weren't sociopaths. A case in point is John le Carre's wonderful but deeply disturbing, A Perfect Spy. Unless there is something missing at a spy's core, which gives him the ability to lie convincingly, he isn't a very good spy
post #739 of 1773
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph View Post

x2
Perhaps she's not a sociopath, but she's certainly capable of saying anything to anyone given the proper circumstances. We've seen this demonstrated countless times by her character, regardless of the person getting the lies, including Saul.

Depends on one's personal view of sociopaths, obviously. She's capable of saying AND doing anything. But she has most of the hallmarks, including having no regard for the consequences of her action and looking out for nobody but herself. Partly due to her manic issues, to be sure, but you can only blame just so much on mental illness. She does feel guilty, so that keeps her off the psychopath list. But her guilt doesn't change her behavior. If it quacks like a duck.......
post #740 of 1773
She's a very complex individual, as is Brody. And Sol and Estes, even Danny. Heck even Nasir and the VP have more than one side to them. They can't be labeled easily and don't have simplistic explainations for their behavior. They're portrayed as real people, with flaws and virtues. Noone is merely a plot device, which is what makes the show so fascinating and seperates it from most thrillers/spy dramas.
post #741 of 1773
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwsat View Post


Of course Carrie is a sociopath, or so it seems to me. I have been reading spy fiction for 50 years or more and I have seen few if any spies, who weren't sociopaths. A case in point is John le Carre's wonderful but deeply disturbing, A Perfect Spy. Unless there is something missing at a spy's core, which gives him the ability to lie convincingly, he isn't a very good spy[/quote]
... and who can argue with spy fiction ... ? rolleyes.gif
post #742 of 1773
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwsat View Post


Of course Carrie is a sociopath, or so it seems to me. I have been reading spy fiction for 50 years or more and I have seen few if any spies, who weren't sociopaths. A case in point is John le Carre's wonderful but deeply disturbing, A Perfect Spy. Unless there is something missing at a spy's core, which gives him the ability to lie convincingly, he isn't a very good spy.
... and who can argue with spy fiction ... ? rolleyes.gif
post #743 of 1773
Watching the interrogation made me think of all the great Homicide: Life on the Streets interrogation box scenes with Andre Braugher playing the Pembleton role. Difficult to write those scenes well, but when they are written well they reveal so much emotion in the characters. The best parts are figuring out whether the emotion is contrived or "real".

Love Homeland but really miss Homicide. That show was before its time. It needed to be on show time or HBO.
post #744 of 1773
Any wine drinkers in the group that noticed the Vinturi aerator in its stand next to David Estes' computer monitor when he was viewing the video of Brody in episode 4? What's up with that? Just advertising or supposed to imply the guy spends a lot of time on his computer?
post #745 of 1773
Quote:
Originally Posted by dlep View Post

Watching the interrogation made me think of all the great Homicide: Life on the Streets interrogation box scenes with Andre Braugher playing the Pembleton role. Difficult to write those scenes well, but when they are written well they reveal so much emotion in the characters. The best parts are figuring out whether the emotion is contrived or "real".
Love Homeland but really miss Homicide. That show was before its time. It needed to be on show time or HBO.

I really miss that show ;-)
post #746 of 1773
Quote:
Originally Posted by dlep View Post

Watching the interrogation made me think of all the great Homicide: Life on the Streets interrogation box scenes with Andre Braugher playing the Pembleton role. Difficult to write those scenes well, but when they are written well they reveal so much emotion in the characters. The best parts are figuring out whether the emotion is contrived or "real".
Love Homeland but really miss Homicide. That show was before its time. It needed to be on show time or HBO.

In another forum, I made that same comparison. "Three Men and Adina" was a great interrogation episode and Braugher was just fantastic in that show.
post #747 of 1773
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Any wine drinkers in the group that noticed the Vinturi aerator in its stand next to David Estes' computer monitor when he was viewing the video of Brody in episode 4? What's up with that? Just advertising or supposed to imply the guy spends a lot of time on his computer?

I have one of those at home, but didn't notice it on the show.

However, I did notice that Carrie was gulping down some kind of Cupcake white. It was a long shot, so I couldn't tell which varietal, but I did recognize the label!
post #748 of 1773
It was on the left side of the TV display (ie. to the right of the computer monitor as Estes was facing it). I keep mine in my kitchen which is why it stood out to me.
post #749 of 1773
Quote:
Originally Posted by dougotte View Post

However, I did notice that Carrie was gulping down some kind of Cupcake white. It was a long shot, so I couldn't tell which varietal, but I did recognize the label!

Good Catch! I didn't notice that Carrie was drinking Cupcake wine, although I have bought it from time to time. As I recall, it was pretty good and not terribly expensive.
post #750 of 1773
I don't think Carrie is a sociopath -- sociopaths are incapable of empathy. If anything, Carrie feels too much empathy and is willing to risk herself and often operations in its service -- witness how determined she was to protect her source in Beirut this season, or how upset she was when her informant in the Prince's entourage died last year. She is certainly capable of lying, but that doesn't make her incapable of empathy.
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