How do you have your high-end 2.1 systems set up?

^^^

mine are setup as part of my 5.2 system...

you basically outlined your options... either a sub with an internal xover, or some piece of electronics (whether it be an avr/pre-pro/active xover) to do it for you...

I use an external crossover with absolutely no quality loss and I'm thinking you should be all right going though your sub. In my case, I had a horrible hum when doing so (hence the external crossover), otherwise I couldn't tell the difference in SQ.

Both McIntosh and Classe are making 2 channel preamp/processors with good bass management. There is, also, a Harman-Kardon HK-990 integrated amp with bass management and useful roomEQ.

Have you considered purchasing a REL sub bass system?

Sorry. Somehow I got the impression they did but they do not. Too bad, imho.

Some DVD players (like my Arcam) have internal bass management and 5.1 out so it is possible to use it. I don't use that as I have other players in use also.

I use the sub's XO but I wire it in a way (with bi-wiring) that when the sub is off I get full range out of the main speakers and when it is on it only crosses over around 40Hz, where the mains tails off. It may sound heretic to some but the reason I do this is I only use the sub in my 2CH room for listening to pipe organ music.

Very few subs apply a high pass on the line level outs.

Your best bets were the two you suggested: get a pre with bass management (Emotiva USP and Parasound 2100 are in this list; the Outlaw integrated also has this capability; but the HK Kal mentioned is the only one I know of with EQ as well), or a crossover between your pre and amp.

A subwoofer....? I got a "Stereo" system, but each channel has 3 speakers connected in parallel, each with 12'' built in woofers. So 6 speakers split in half for stereo. No need for an annoying subwoofer.

Most stereo amps are designed for 2 speakers, which means two full range speakers capable of handling their own bass. A 2.1 system I wouldn't even consider being stereo anymore, more like 2.1 surround-sound.

If I wanted to use a separate subwoofer for my low-frequencies, I'd just build my own crossover from coils or capacitors, its not hard. Most stereo amps or receivers will let you make a cutoff setting for minimum/maximum for both the speakers and subwoofers.

Either way, there are many surround receivers you can buy and just use thier stereo function and set all the crossovers there, and they will have a subwoofer output.

Sub woofers are only annoying if you have a crap one and/or it is not set up and integrated properly.


Rubbish. Amps are designed to deliver a certain power into a given load, and it is up to the user to decide if a given design is correct for thier needs and implementation. Just because an amp has 2channels does not mean you only have to use it in a 2ch system, not that that is what it is only capable of being used in.
Stereo means three dimensional, not a pair of channels.

LF is also not directional and very hard to localise unless the sub is doing something wrong, eg distortion or a resonance. This is how come multi subbing a la Toole, Welti, Geddes etc works so well.

So using a sub(s) for LF support doesn't make it any less of a stereo system.


This is an expensive way of doing it and difficult to match levels correctly and hard to get matching high and low pass slopes of decent order. Active gives more flexibility, control, does not waste power in passives and often has other features such as EQ and delay.

Hey, nothing I said was false and you couldn't disprove anything I said, i mentioned my opinion...

I recently switched from HT back to stereo and purchased a Lyngdorf amplifier which allows a 2.2 setup meaning it has 2 dedicated sub outputs.

Which is that of a fool.

You mentioned high end and then you mentioned high price... I think you have quite the disconnect going

You mentioned all the normal ways to get a sub out. A lot of 2.x pre's with sub out may lack bass management. I prefer (and have the ability) to deploy a crossover. With a bit of reading you should be able also. So you have my vote. Get something like the MiniDSP for under $200.

You could also look at a traditional HT receiver and run it in direct mode.

The precepts about how to go about this transcend cost of system. It's the same for a $1000 as a $10,000 system.

I use a Parasound P7 analogue pre-amp for stereo playback.
I have my custom Biased L212, mirror imaged, speakers mounted to my custom 15" Revel subs.
The P7 has full analogue BM, with options of 50, 80 htz OXs, full range mains, sub off.
This combo provides a very good full range system for CD and LP playback.

As the P7 is a 7 channel pre, I also use it for sacd/dvd-a. With the Denon 10930ci setting the BM for those.

You are a troll

Easy,

In my main system, just have a velo dd15 fed off L&R pre outs that daisy chain off my power amp (mf a5cr)

My mains aren't particularly lacking for bass, but the dd15 with all the eq you need built in with it's SMS system gives me a pretty flat room response 200-15 hz back at the listening position.

I'm pretty chuffed with the way things came out.

In my bedroom system am running a nad m3 integrated, comes with built in pure analog xover. My pmc stand mounts there, measure pretty flat to about 60hz where start dropping off. Have used a velo SMS picked up cheap to measure what need there, and when funds permit plan to pick up suitable sub. Will use the SMS to find the best sub location. And am quite confident 200 -20 hz reasonably flat back to listening position. But yeah time will tell, and also dependent on kind of sub pick up and best place find for it, retailers are helpful here so when time comes there's a few quite happy to lend me a sub so can find best one and spot for it.

2.1 pretty easy really, how you implement upto you. But don't have to spend a kings ransom. And good results can be achieved with just about any combination of gear in my opinion. Without making it all too hard

I've been running a 2.1 system since '79. I had a really bad room back then, and the only way to get any bass was using a sub in the front corner. Been using subs ever since, and as many as five subs at one time. Down to only two 15" 540w units, now.

Vandersteen 2WQ...works brilliantly, well reviewed--with Vandersteen Crossover between Pre and Power amp.

Below from the Vandersteen site:

The 2Wq uses a unique, innovative connection method that reduces the current demands on the main amplifier, but leaves the main amplifier in the signal path to the subwoofer. The system realizes the benefits of bi-amplification with absolute sonic continuity as the main amplifier 's characteristics that are evident through the full-range speakers are maintained to the deepest bass, but with the power and control of the 2Wq 's
internal 300 watt amplifier.

The crossover of the 2Wq is divided into separate low-pass and high-pass
sections. Like conventional subwoofers, the high-pass portion of the 2Wq 's crossover is inserted into the signal path just before the main power amplifier to roll-off the low frequency response of the main amplifier
and speakers. The critical difference is that the 2Wq does not take its input from its crossover, but samples the output from the main amplifier
that is driving the main speakers. To compensate for the low frequency roll-off induced by the crossover, the response of the 2Wq 's amplifier is contoured to restore the low frequencies to the proper level. The 2Wq 's
input impedance is high enough that it has no effect on the output of the main amplifier.

Since the high-pass portion of the crossover is inserted between the preamplifier and power amplifier, you must be able to separate the
preamplifier and power amplifier sections of a receiver or integrated amp for it to be compatible with the 2Wq.In all systems, the input impedance of the main amplifier must be known in order to properly set the 2Wq 's high-pass crossover. The low pass crossover is integrated with the 2Wq 's amplifier and does not require adjustment. Both sections of the crossover are transient perfect, 6dB per octave designs. A variable single-ended crossover
is included with each 2Wq subwoofer. Optional fixed value crossovers are available both in single-ended and balanced configurations to match any main amplifier.
The output level of the 2Wq can be adjusted to match speakers with an efficiency rating of between 82dB and 100dB.Wires and banana plugs to connect the output of your fullrange amplifier to the input of the 2Wq are included with each subwoofer.

I've heard systems using 2 or 3 speakers per channel in front. They always sound horrible. I'd take a quality sub over that any day.



So why do you have three in parallel? Does it take three of them to "handle their own bass"? Look up what surround sound is, a sub doesn't come close to making it surround sound.

That sounds stupid: add a line level high pass to reduce LF response before the main power amp, then after the power amp, add an inverse filter to bring it flat again before processing it for the sub.

If you're using amps with balanced inputs, a recent pre/pro like the Outlaw 990 is a viable candidate. It has balanced outputs that you can use for the L and R mains and it has two balanced subwoofer outs. It also has both analog and digital bass management, which allows some flexibility in set up.

The 990 is my pre for my JBL K2 S9900 system, and it drives a pair of ATI 2003 amps with balanced inputs. This was key to eliminating a mild 60Hz hum in the line, and the amps are behemoths with reserves to spare.

Two channels of each 2003 amplify a single K2 (separated LF and HF terminals on the c-c, bypass-capped networks) via a balanced "Y" cable to the amp. The third channel goes to a passive JBL Synthesis® S2S sub crossed over by the Outlaw below 40 Hz. This is repeated for the other speaker and sub.

Via an active cross-over with a Linkwitz-Transform moving the speakers' two high-pass poles' and adding two more to form an LR4 acoustic response.

I did not know The Outlaw pre had analogue BM. Its been a few years since I even looked at their products. Ever since Emotiva came out it seems like Outlaw got pushed off the charts. I had actually forgotten about Outlaw.
But I would buy Outlaw long before I would buy Emotiva, from all the negatives about their pre/pro.

Being my Parasound P7 is analogue only it does not have digital BM, but the Denon disc player takes care of that, to a certain extent.

I use a external crossover filter from Ino audio, 80hz/30dB. Works perfectly.

Outlaw is still struggling to get its next-gen pre/pro out, but I find a lot to like in the "old" 990 as a stereo pre. It has a phono input, it's got 24/192 DACs, a working USB port, and even DVI inputs (if you've got DVI-capable equipment).

Yeah, I noticed that Outlaw had no current pre/pro and are selling Marantz pre/pros instead.
Parasound had the same problem last year. They scraped their 7 channel pre/pro as the platform it was based on had too many bugs.
But Emo decided to put out their bug ridden pre/pro, based on the same platform, so buyer beware!

I did notice their new stereo receiver. But as I have a Parasound P7/2205A combo, I don't need it, unless I was to setup another system. That receiver might be quite comparable to the HK 3490.

As a novice I'm getting confused by the crossover chatter. I have a less than high end system and running 2.1. I currently have my Polk Ti 500 towers running directly to my HK3490 reciever and my Polk PSW125 power sub running to the recievers subout. should I run my speakers through the sub crossover or leave everything as is?