100 wpc vs 130 wpc : Is there really any noticeable difference?

^^^

all other things being equal (power supply, etc.), nope...

No it would not make a difference. And it would be wattage and volume, not so much the way it sounds. The sound would be due to your speakers and the type of EQ programs the different CE's use. Any of these with the same specs or even close to each other when put on direct would sound the same with the same speakers and at the same volume.

I have a slightly different view...

I don't take the absolute power rating...I halve it, in this case...

50 vs 65(which is the real amount you will consider once you take it to all 5 channels)

Will you really notice a difference between 50 and 65? Not really. But the extra 15 comes in handy when you explore dynamic range...

take a 90db speaker(Polk Monitor 70)

1 watt is 90db
2 is 93db
4 is 96db
8 is 99db
16 is 102db
32 is 105db
64 is 108db

If you are listening to reference volume of your receiver (which attempts to mimic 85db with an extra 20db of headroom)...the extra 15 watts can help clear you without straining the receiver. I never like going beyond "half the power you have". So, in my belief where you are running into the possibility of hitting 32 watts...that is easier to accomplish when you have 65 at your disposal...than 50.

I have always recommended people buy an amp to deliver 1/4, but never more than 1/3 of its rating. If you need 32 watts...buy a minimum of 96, but the entire system will be more comfortable on 128. My rounding "back up" takes into account what you will regain by switching from 5 channel back to 2. I am not suggesting you need(what would be...) an equivalent 200wpc amp to play 32 watts.

A3000 A1000
Dynamic Power per Channel (8/6/4/2 ohms) 175/220/295/415 W 135/165/210/280 W

my speakers like as much power as I can give them, the 3000 was a good choice for me.
And I could tell a big difference from previous V663 which was rated at 95w (I had both at same time for a few weeks)

^^^^

One of the least useful numbers in all of AV is the ACD (All Channels Driven) numbers for an AVR. This does not represent any kind of real world application, as unless you enjoy deafening yourself by running test tones a extraordinary volume through all 5 channels simultaneously. No movie or music content is going to drive the amps in this way. It also ignores the reduced load on the amp provided by routing lows and LFE content to a sub.

Not even sure what the "use half of what you have" comment means and/or why that would change the headroom calculation.

As the first two responses indicate, there is no practical difference between 100 and 130 wpc. Unless you have very inefficient speakers, a room large enough to play a game of half court basketball in, or listen above reference, either 100 or 130 will be plenty. And if you have any of those situations, neither 100 nor 130 may be enough and you would be one of the few posters with a legitimate need for external amplification.

My recommendation is to focus on the feature set of the receivers and select the set that best fits your needs.

@mtnsound...

unless the previous avr was going into thermal protection and shutting down, or you were clipping, the "big difference" is all in your mind....

speakers don't want "as much power as you can give them"...

+1... the headroom point he attempts to make makes even less sense than the rest of the post...

The differences in what you perceive are highly likely to be coming from something other than power (most likely the different EQ systems). Until you drive your speakers close to the amps limit, there simply isn't any issue with power.

At normal listening levels, you probably pull less than 5 watts and the speakers can't tell the difference between 5 watts of power from the 3000 vs. 5 watts of power from the V663. Power draw is driven by volume (assuming the other variables remain static, such as same speakers), so a more powerful receiver doesn't offer the speakers any additional power until your volume demands it.

If you are playing near or above reference, there might be a difference. Below that, none that could be attributed to a larger potential power output.

One place where it may make a difference is the level you're able to drive your speakers before clipping happens. This can be surprisingly low levels with many AVRs, especially with multi-channel audio that's really loading the amps. Think of it as 700W vs 910W, which is the total available power for all channels. That's a 25% increase in headroom.

So with power-hungry speakers it could mean a lot less clipping at high levels, and even improved control of the bass drivers.

YMMV, as always. But all things being equal if you can afford 130WPC, get it. Nobody has ever regretted getting more power. That said, if a lesser AVR has line-outs and the lower price allows you to also get a REAL amp, that's food for thought.

ah, so THAT must be the reason why I went out and got a external amp with my V663 and then got rid of the amp with my A3000.
The A3000 much more compared similarly to my NAD ext 150W/ch amp than it did the V663.
And its not so much the exact power ratings as it is the quality of the amp, the A3000 has a much better quality amp in it.

I'd be surprised if you could pick them out in a double blind test where the two AVR's are level matched with EQ off. Very surprised.

Again, near the limits of the V663, a slight maybe. Below that, highly unlikely. There are too many controlled studies out there to believe otherwise.

Not saying you aren't hearing something different with the A3000, but it's not the amps.

Even worse? in real world testing a fair amount of the time, the dang lower rated amp actually proves to be more powerful.

I'll chime in here a little. The BIGGEST difference you would notice is if you switched from using the internal amplifiers in say an AVR and instead started using a stand alone amplifier like a B&K Reference 200.7 or Emotiva UPA-7.

The external amplifiers will actually give you their true power (usually they are underrated actually) compared to an AVR which might give you if you're lucky 1/2 of the actual power rating.

Using an amplifier with MORE power available (along with making it louder if you want) is that it has more head room allowing for more control and less loss of detail durring loud bursts when the amp is taxed. If you are trying to drive your speakers at loud volumes and then something even louder happens IMHO you lose dynamics and detail of sound due to the amplifier not having enough juice behind it to hand that burst.

This difference in detail, power handling, and dynamics usually only shows itself if you're listening to material loud...not at lower volumes.

As far as sound quality...well an amplifier is supposed to do just that.... AMPLIFY....and not colour the sound at all. The quality of sound really depends on your source, dac, pre/pro etc. provided the amp is working properly.

damn it and I thought my xp-2 was giving me a little more umph

If the rating were accurate, I would say little difference.

Assume the ratings are not accurate for any receiver under real world, movie loads. During loud scenes in movies, who knows how much demand is really being put across all the amps...at some point the receiver will fail to keep up, and will distort. But we don't know when that will happen with any receiver.

IMO, the biggest differences you would experience is in comparing a budget receiver to a quality mid range receiver. Consider a $200 to $300 MSRP receiver. Maybe it has a 250 VA transformer. A quality midrange receiver might come close to doubling that (a guess.)

rdgrimes and MichaelJ seem to have it.

My interpretation of the above, rdgrimes; is that amp power is good to have on however many channels you can get it. PLUS MichaelJ's suggestions that the power supply is what will make that individual (or pair, or whatever #) amp's driving ability REAL.

Old Yamaha 765, I think 105 wpc. 5 speakers using onboard amps (plus bi-amping using the s/r's to front L/R) always seemed to approach "breathless" in a largish-volume room with reasonably efficient speakers. Took front L/R to adcom 100 wpc. Much more clarity and "ease" in the room as volume turned to right. Mind, that adcom is a 5ch amp with almost 700watt powersupply using a torroidal transformer that looks like it was landed there by aliens. So there is a lot of heft behind those measley 100wpc. Medium-sized hammer, well-wielded by a large guy.

Something made a difference to me. I think that both approaches above outline the nature of the OP's question. At least it is to my limited experience and understanding.

Mkard

Slightly less than 1db

This would depend really on the type of amplifier used. With all channels driven from an AVR, in short I would say no. If it was an outboard amp then possibly and that's a big possibly. With a current AVR most have rail voltage that's a limiter in order to protect the AVR. Not so much in an amp. So you may or may not notice a difference. This of course is also depending the brand and model of AVR. That's why you should research your buying decision after reading as much as possible on your AVR purchase. Read test reports, not just a review, test reports will give you a full analysis of the AVR, reviews are just an opinion. JMHO.

This is not the problem of not having enough amp power but you have reached the gain limit of the built in electronics / chips, imposed by several features (source component, source material, controller chip (volume) in combination with room EQ or tone controls etc.)
There is a theoretical limit imposed on digital data too: if all bits are set to "1", you are done and everything is just (very loud) noise.
Thus everything is kept well below this level, even during crescendos.

When I want to see how powerfull a receiver is, I look at the wattage rating of the power supply. It funny how a receiver can be rated at 7x110w when it has a 280 watt power supply. It's thermodynamically impossible to deliver 770 watts when only 280 are being delived via the PSU. Well, maybe if the receiver has some capacitance and it's a transitory thing, but not steady state.

One thing I've noticed is cheap amplifiers tend to sound OK at lower volumes. When you crank them up, that's when they sound bad. So, all else being equal, if you compare 2 cheap amps, the 130w may start sounding really bad at a higher volume.

The only time you might be glad you had the extra 30 watts is while
watching Blurays. I have Klipsch Heritage speakers hooked up to Yamaha RX-V1900 HD AVR 130X7 and I have a 5.2 system and my sub have their own amps. I have noticed the signal is weaker on Blurays then CD mode. While watching Blurays I find that I use more of the amps for special effects etc. I have to remember to turn down the volume when I go from BR to CD mode.
Having the extra power that I may never use will make the amps last longer. By having the extra power your AVR will not work so hard and run cooler. Watch a movie with it cranking and after a hour place your hand over your AVR and feel the heat. I had a AVR that was 100X7 and it ran much hotter watching Blurays (same levels on my SPL meter) movies at 85/90 DB and 100 peak special effects I was 90% on my display on the less powerfull AVR and now I am 70% on this display (volume setting) same Db levels and less heat. I do have a fan installed and plenty of venting space above the AVR.
Just saying what I have found now that I am HT. Years ago I always got a amp that had about 20% more power then my speakers were rated so I had clean power and lower and higher settings. Good luck with what ever you purchase.

Kidhorn post is good advise. Look at the power supply rating. And on one of the forums I go to has a bench test on AVR's I was suprised at much power is lost when all amps are on at one time. Like music on 7channel mode so all the amps are on the same.

One thing about so called headroom...130 vs 100 offers very little headroom, so to speak. In theory, it's so little, you may hardly be not able to tell the difference.

Of course, it's a moot point, IMO, because you can't compare receiver power ratings as mentioned above. I suspect receivers may product distortion at audible levels, below what would be expected based on the ratings as someone mentioned above. If the receiver started audibly distorting at say, 50 watts, differences in power may be more obvious (also mentioned above.)

I wonder if the rail voltage is the usual limiter? There's a number of other possible factors. The power supply voltage could sag under load (still a rail voltage issue, but not because of too low of nominal voltage.) Limiter circuits may be activating as well - which may be worse than expected, because some limiter circuits may result in distortion being produced. I would be interested in knowing the answer...I guess in the long run, the result is the same though, distortion, and volume must be reduced.

I understand the thinking behind this. And it's not wrong.

But, an all channels driven test is not pointless IMO. Here's my thinking. If you take some $200 Sony AVR, it might be rated at 100 watts / channel. Probably at 1kz, and 1% THD.

You might look at a better receiver, which has 110 watts / channel, and conclude they have similar performance. Maybe it's rated at a better THD, but still, you may think, well, why not get the Sony, seems ok.

Then you put both models on the test bench, and subject them to an all channels driven test. The Sony drops to 25 watts / channel or worse. The other receiver drops to 50 watts. I think you just learned something. At least I did. Not picking on Sony, this sort of thing is true when testing various budget receivers vs better mid range models...

In some ways, price is a fair indication with the mass market brands. It would seem to be a tough market, and they are not going to be able to juggle prices much until the price tag gets above $1000. So a $600 receiver will almost certainly have better performance than a $300 receiver. Probably not twice though, but the feature upgrade on the midrange model may be compelling as well.

No news there - there are certainly quality differences in amps and how they handle load. That said, the testing process and associating results with amp requirements itself is, IMO, fatally flawed, as it is based on a metric that doesn't represent real world operations. There simply isn't a scenario where actual content will drive all channels, long term, at maximum output. Now if the manufacturers would give us a short duration version of that test, we would really have a more valuable set of data.

Add to that the reality that very few users will ever ask the amps to put out more than a few watts, and I just don't consider power to be a compelling differentiator in AVR's. As you state, the feature set, particularly EQ options, is, to me, the area to focus on when selecting an AVR.

As mentioned before, if you have difficult speakers to drive, listen @ reference, or have an exceptionally large space, then power does become a factor, but for most, not so much. I certainly wouldn't give up a preferred EQ solution to get a few more real world wpc.

I agree with you though in the case where a very competent amp section is compared to a very low end model, but that wasn't, IMHO, what the OP was comparing.

Anyhoo, it's an interesting discussion and everyone can decide where they want to spend. Sometimes, it's just nice to know you have more power, whether you really need it or not. For example, I have a 200 wpc channel amp hanging off a Denon 4311 driving 91db sensitive speakers in a mid size room. Can I justify it intellectually? Not a chance, but it's fun to try new gear and while it's probably more placebo than real, I think at reference, my system sounds better. At levels below reference, I know there is no impact.

Cheers,

Ben

One very noticeable difference with a bigger amp is that comfortable listening levels increase. Less fatigue, audible distortion and more clean - musical bass (assuming large full-range speakers).

Listening fatigue may be the most reliable indicator of how well your setup is performing. If it hurts and tires you quickly, either the speakers are not up to the task or the amp is clipping or both.

There's no real way to know when an amp will start clipping, it depends on the source material. But with multichannel high-res music, odds are good it will be at moderate levels.

If you're a power hog and like to crank it up, consider moving away from AVRs to real amps to drive your speakers. AVRs still make good pre/pros if they have line-outs. A modest $500 AVR with a dedicated amp can even cost less than a $2000 AVR with higher power. Power in an AVR is the carrot to get you to buy all the expensive processing that you don't really need.

Yamaha A800 = $500
Emotiva XPA-5 = $900

Yamaha A2000 = $1400
Yamaha A3000 = $1800

If you want more than 5 channels, the smaller AVR can still drive the extra 2 just fine.

I was going to this with my Yamaha RX-V1900 HD AVR (retailed $1,300.00) 130X7 and purchase a 200X5
amp. I got lucky as Pop's old Cornwalls and my Heresey II sound great in very small den with just the AVR.