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Philharmonic Audio - Dennis Murphy - Page 54

post #1591 of 4198
4/14/12 at 7:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkish54 View Post


Sorry for the long-winded post! :P

Do not apologize - this is an exciting time for you and that is nothing to be sorry about. I am very happy for you.
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post #1592 of 4198
4/14/12 at 7:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkish54 View Post

Actually, the time frame DM gave me is just about perfect. I WAS going to place the Phils in my living room until my garage got cleaned out, (I have a standalone garage in the backyard that has 10 years worth of junk in it. I was going to clean it out and turn it into a HT room) however, it lost power about a month ago and I haven't been able to get it fixed just yet. I decided that since my living room is an acoustic disaster, I'm going to relocate the stuff in the spare bedroom (used for storage) and turn that into a HT room. (I'll transfer to the garage when I get power because it's far bigger.) It'll take me a few weeks to move all of the stuff out, and all my AV stuff in. By the time I finish, the Phils should just about be ready to ship!

Sounds great!

You been on a roll man. Now you just need some subwoofage
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post #1593 of 4198
4/14/12 at 7:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eternal Velocity View Post


Sounds great!

You been on a roll man. Now you just need some subwoofage

Actually, EV, your post is what made me decide to do it. I was up at like 4 in the morning so I decided to browse this thread. I saw a post you made about speaker placement, and I thought "I could probably get pretty close to that if I cleaned out my storage room". So, thanks! :P

I'm going to model the driver as best I can and build it ported. =) I'm REALLY hoping to complete it before the Phils are ready.

Dude...the WGTI MKII, the SR6004, and the Phils would be a pretty deadly combination considering what i'm coming from! Actually, the Tags are rated 87.5db sensitive (6ohm) as the Phil 2 is. The amp in the SR6004 can push them well beyond what I can tolerate listening to!
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post #1594 of 4198
4/14/12 at 7:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post


Do not apologize - this is an exciting time for you and that is nothing to be sorry about. I am very happy for you.

Thank you very much, Nuance!! That is very kind! Did the seed bloom into a flower yet??
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post #1595 of 4198
4/14/12 at 9:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eternal Velocity View Post

Guys, you should remember something.

Even if something is audible, does not mean it affects one's preference with respect to perceived sound quality.

And not everything that's audible, is linearly audible at every SPL.

I think y'all should lay off with your agression towards ADTG. For all we know, Nuance's 6 year old would "prefer" the local Bose setup.

ADTG's "preferences" are enough to show what kind of speaker he prefers. Who cares if he's not concerned with getting the last 5% out of his 9.5/10 systems, while other people let themselves be obsessed with of getting the last 5% out of their 6/10 systems?

I've spent endless hours playing with placements in my system. Occasionally I've heard meaningful differences on very specific content, and often I just adjust to however I've got my speakers set up.

Our acoustic memory is so short, that even if there's an audible difference, that doesn't mean we will recognize it.

I've heard a ton of claims about x and y making HUGE differences myself, and then I go and try it, live with it for a while, switch back, and honestly, if there was a difference, it's ridiculously easy to forget what it was.

I've compared speakers next to each other in A / B testing and been unable to decide which I even prefer even where the differences are clearly audible.

There's a lot of scrutiny going on about people's setups. Totally understandable, but seriously, relax. You could take the Salk SS8s from a super treated, perfect acoustics room, and put it my living room, and sure the person who owns the super treated perfect room would hear the difference, but what about the person who hasn't been in either room? To them, there isn't even a clear indication the treated room would sound better. It's how our brains work and it has nothing to do with our individual listening skills. There's a LOT of conditioning that goes on in the audiophile world.

Thank you.

Sometimes I do feel we get too critical. It's definitely a good idea to relax and enjoy.
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post #1596 of 4198
4/14/12 at 11:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eternal Velocity View Post

I think y'all should lay off with your agression towards ADTG.

When statements like this are made:

Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

It doesn't adversely affect the audio in my system one bit.

*Snip*

Hypothesis vs reality.

Then expect them to be challenged. Others reading this might think it is ok to ignore proper speaker orientation. The reality is, this is simply untrue for very good reasons.

ADTG, I completely respect your decision to do as you please with your gear. I am sure it sounds great.
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post #1597 of 4198
4/15/12 at 5:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tesseract67 View Post


When statements like this are made:

Then expect them to be challenged. Others reading this might think it is ok to ignore proper speaker orientation. The reality is, this is simply untrue for very good reasons.

Exactly.
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post #1598 of 4198
4/15/12 at 6:22am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tesseract67 View Post

When statements like this are made:



Then expect them to be challenged. Others reading this might think it is ok to ignore proper speaker orientation. The reality is, this is simply untrue for very good reasons.

ADTG, I completely respect your decision to do as you please with your gear. I am sure it sounds great.

If having the speakers positioned the way he does would make such an audible change, what measurements would you use to be able to show at least some of this? Thanks.

James
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post #1599 of 4198
4/15/12 at 6:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eternal Velocity View Post

Guys, you should remember something.

Even if something is audible, does not mean it affects one's preference with respect to perceived sound quality.

And not everything that's audible, is linearly audible at every SPL.

I think y'all should lay off with your agression towards ADTG. For all we know, Nuance's 6 year old would "prefer" the local Bose setup.

ADTG's "preferences" are enough to show what kind of speaker he prefers. Who cares if he's not concerned with getting the last 5% out of his 9.5/10 systems, while other people let themselves be obsessed with of getting the last 5% out of their 6/10 systems?

I've spent endless hours playing with placements in my system. Occasionally I've heard meaningful differences on very specific content, and often I just adjust to however I've got my speakers set up.

Our acoustic memory is so short, that even if there's an audible difference, that doesn't mean we will recognize it.

I've heard a ton of claims about x and y making HUGE differences myself, and then I go and try it, live with it for a while, switch back, and honestly, if there was a difference, it's ridiculously easy to forget what it was.

I've compared speakers next to each other in A / B testing and been unable to decide which I even prefer even where the differences are clearly audible.

There's a lot of scrutiny going on about people's setups. Totally understandable, but seriously, relax. You could take the Salk SS8s from a super treated, perfect acoustics room, and put it my living room, and sure the person who owns the super treated perfect room would hear the difference, but what about the person who hasn't been in either room? To them, there isn't even a clear indication the treated room would sound better. It's how our brains work and it has nothing to do with our individual listening skills. There's a LOT of conditioning that goes on in the audiophile world.

+1 Well said.
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post #1600 of 4198
4/15/12 at 6:46am
I followed the thread for the GTG..looks like everyone had a lot of fun...any review / opinions on how the Phil's did ?
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post #1601 of 4198
4/15/12 at 7:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by exojam View Post


If having the speakers positioned the way he does would make such an audible change, what measurements would you use to be able to show at least some of this? Thanks.

James

Off the top of my head, frequency response near field and far field, polar response, sound power, waterfall plots and the use of an accelerometer. The human ear is the best tool to measure the effects, though, and it's quite easy to test.

If someone is happy with their sound - awesome - but making false claims is a different sorry and won't go unchallenged. Think of it this way: if diffraction and reflections are a problem from the speaker's own cabinets, you don't think it will be a problem from other speaker cabinets sitting directly next to the source speaker?
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post #1602 of 4198
4/15/12 at 7:45am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

Off the top of my head, frequency response near field and far field, polar response, sound power, waterfall plots and the use of an accelerometer. The human ear is the best tool to measure the effects, though, and it's quite easy to test.

If someone is happy with their sound - awesome - but making false claims is a different sorry and won't go unchallenged. Think of it this way: if diffraction and reflections are a problem from the speaker's own cabinets, you don't think it will be a problem from other speaker cabinets sitting directly next to the source speaker?

Nuance,

Thanks for the reply. Just to be clear I never stated there would be no difference with speaker cabinets sitting directly next to the source speaker. Heck even moving the measuring mic a few inches or the speaker a few inches can provide different results. So yes, I would expect a different result with changes in what is or is not in someones room.

What I was looking for is someone to say is these types of measurements (FR response, decay, etc) could be used to try and correlate the difference they hear when items (speakers in this case that are moved-removed from the room). That to me is better than just saying there will be a difference.

But even with that, we do not listen to measurement graphs. I am sure if folks looked at some of mine they may say that stinks but get in the room and listen and it is a whole different story.

Glad to hear the GTG was a good one.

James
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post #1603 of 4198
4/15/12 at 7:46am
hey every1!!my review soon to come, was trying my phils 2 at my friends place today ( with a true amp, despite i had no clipping from my cheap avr, and real room)
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post #1604 of 4198
4/15/12 at 7:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by anarkhia View Post

hey every1!!my review soon to come, was trying my phils 2 at my friends place today ( with a true amp, despite i had no clipping from my cheap avr, and real room)

Nice!!! I'm very excited to hear your review!!
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post #1605 of 4198
4/15/12 at 7:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by monkish54 View Post


nice!!! I'm very excited to hear your review!!

+1
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post #1606 of 4198
4/15/12 at 7:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by anarkhia View Post

hey every1!!my review soon to come, was trying my phils 2 at my friends place today ( with a true amp, despite i had no clipping from my cheap avr, and real room)



Looking forward to your review!
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post #1607 of 4198
4/15/12 at 7:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

Think of it this way: if diffraction and reflections are a problem from the speaker's own cabinets

Not necessarily.

First of all as far as reflections are concerned, it's safe to say he has no speakers in the "path" between the reflection points and the walls.

Now onto the more complex matter of diffraction... let's take the Salon2 for example:



Very low diffraction design.

So you won't have diffraction problems in the lower treble/upper midrange.

By the time you get to the midrange (500-1khz), audibility of diffraction is not the same and that's about where those "side by side speakers" contribute. It's a frequency dependant phenominon.

Some speakers are more sensitive to these issues as well. A narrow-constant directivity speaker for example has a much higher direct to indirect sound ratio, so what indirect sound does reach your ears is less masked by the overall reverberant ratio.

There's tons of factors. Sometimes they're audible, sometimes they're audible. Sometimes they're audible enough to affect preference (IE poor enough placement that you get coloration/masked detail and sometimes they're audible and still don't matter/affect SQ (for example... <1% THD mostly 2nd/3rd order).
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post #1608 of 4198
4/15/12 at 9:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by exojam View Post

If having the speakers positioned the way he does would make such an audible change, what measurements would you use to be able to show at least some of this? Thanks.

James

Nuance beat me to it. I would like to add that I believe it is safe to say... none of the manufacturers represented in ADTG's collection would recommend setting up their speakers in that manner.
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post #1609 of 4198
4/15/12 at 9:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by anarkhia View Post

hey every1!!my review soon to come, was trying my phils 2 at my friends place today ( with a true amp, despite i had no clipping from my cheap avr, and real room)

Cool, man, can't wait for the review
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post #1610 of 4198
4/15/12 at 9:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkish54 View Post

Hahahahah

Thanks!!

Actually, the time frame DM gave me is just about perfect. I WAS going to place the Phils in my living room until my garage got cleaned out, (I have a standalone garage in the backyard that has 10 years worth of junk in it. I was going to clean it out and turn it into a HT room) however, it lost power about a month ago and I haven't been able to get it fixed just yet. I decided that since my living room is an acoustic disaster, I'm going to relocate the stuff in the spare bedroom (used for storage) and turn that into a HT room. (I'll transfer to the garage when I get power because it's far bigger.) It'll take me a few weeks to move all of the stuff out, and all my AV stuff in. By the time I finish, the Phils should just about be ready to ship!

Sorry for the long-winded post! :P

Losing power sucks, but in the end it sounds like you'll have one awesome setup. Too bad you have to move everything twice though, that's gotta be a pain, but worth it in the end.
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post #1611 of 4198
4/15/12 at 9:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by exojam View Post

What I was looking for is someone to say is these types of measurements (FR response, decay, etc) could be used to try and correlate the difference they hear when items (speakers in this case that are moved-removed from the room). That to me is better than just saying there will be a difference.

But even with that, we do not listen to measurement graphs. I am sure if folks looked at some of mine they may say that stinks but get in the room and listen and it is a whole different story.

Thank you. That's what I was trying to convey.

What we actually hear with our own ears may (or may not) always correlate 100% to "theories".
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post #1612 of 4198
4/15/12 at 10:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by fuzz092888 View Post


Losing power sucks, but in the end it sounds like you'll have one awesome setup. Too bad you have to move everything twice though, that's gotta be a pain, but worth it in the end.

My garage is powered by wire from my house to the garage (from roof to roof) Unfortunately the wire burnt itself to death. I have a friend who's a contractor. He'll rewire it for me it's just a matter of working out schedules. =)

Thanks!!! I'll take lots of pictures!! =D

Ehhh, i'm young! (19) it'll be my first time doing anything like that. I look forward to doing it. The third time I move everything will probably not be so fun however...
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post #1613 of 4198
4/15/12 at 11:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Murphy View Post

I'll let others address most of your questions if they wish. But just as a technical matter, the LX5 didn't have a ribbon tweeter. Its "linaeum" tweeter was an interesting variant on a planar driver. It used mylar film in a figure 8 dipole arrangement, but used a conventional voice coil. Ribbon tweeters have almost no mass--just a delicate length of tin foil--that's suspended in a strong magnetic field with no voice coil. The RAAL tweeter in the Philharmonics is a monopole--it just radiates forward. I kind of liked the high end of the LX5--very airy--but it was overwhelmed by the woofer. And the on-axis response was very poor because of the figure 8 radiation pattern. I revised the crossover to bring up the highs and improve the response in general, but it was still better suited for surround duty than as a main speaker with lots of high frequency detail.

Dennis,
Thanks for your correction. The LX5 was exactly like what you said: too much diffused sound and on-axis was over attenuated. Glad to know RAAL is a totally different one. I read from another thread that one person said the RAAL tweeter in the songtower sounded very similar to the BE tweeter in Paradign Signature. I know there are owners of Phil here also have Focal (also have BE tweeter) before, can anyone confirm this?
Looks like I still haven't got any comments about my other questions listed in post #1549. Anyone care to share? Thanks.
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post #1614 of 4198
4/15/12 at 11:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by avdigger View Post

RAAL tweeter sounded very similar to the BE tweeter

Talk to AcuDefTechGuy. His Salon2 has a beryllium tweeter.
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post #1615 of 4198
4/15/12 at 4:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

It doesn't adversely affect the audio in my system one bit.

And if I had more room, I would still had more speakers.

Hearsay. There is a lot of those everywhere.

Sometimes over dramatized. Sometimes over exaggerated. Sometimes over emphasized. Sometimes over analyzed.

It's like keeping the speaker grills on/off or toeing in your speakers.

It's like treating your rooms full of acoustic panels, diffuser, and bass traps vs using simple house furnishings.

It's like using a 800wpc amp vs 80wpc amp.

It's like using matching brand name center speakers & surround speakers.

Sometimes you need it. Sometimes you don't.

Sometimes you hear it. Sometimes you don't.

Hypothesis vs reality.

Every case is different.

At the end of the day, it's all about how the speakers sound to you regardless of hypotheses and hearsay.

Fabulous post.
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post #1616 of 4198
4/15/12 at 6:14pm
Eternal Velocity,

I didn't mean his speakers suffer from diffraction or reflections off its own cabinet, I was just using that as an example. You and I pretty much agree on everything, but we'll agree to disagree on this one. In a room of that width (looks like the right wall is not far from the speakers), cramming in all of that gear and claiming it won't affect the sound is rather unbelievable. I don't doubt he can't hear a difference, but saying that because he cannot hear a difference that it's not a real issue in general for all applications and people is simply incorrect. He continues to use the word "theory," even though this is a science and that aspect of the science has been proven. We even chatted about it yesterday at the GTG and had a good laugh when I mentioned stacking all the speakers up next to each other (our speakers at the GTG). To each their own, and I still love you man!

I am happy ADTG is happy with his sound, but his untrue statements will be challenged.

Just look at this quote by him:

"It doesn't adversely affect the audio in my system one bit.

And if I had more room, I would still had more speakers.

Hearsay. There is a lot of those everywhere.

Sometimes over dramatized. Sometimes over exaggerated. Sometimes over emphasized. Sometimes over analyzed.

It's like keeping the speaker grills on/off or toeing in your speakers.

It's like treating your rooms full of acoustic panels, diffuser, and bass traps vs using simple house furnishings.

It's like using a 800wpc amp vs 80wpc amp.

It's like using matching brand name center speakers & surround speakers.

Sometimes you need it. Sometimes you don't.

Sometimes you hear it. Sometimes you don't.

Hypothesis vs reality.

Every case is different.

At the end of the day, it's all about how the speakers sound to you regardless of hypotheses and hearsay"

He's basically saying room treatments, toe-in, timbre matching and all that are hypothesis, even though the measurements and studies exist that prove they change the sound. Claiming that stuff is hypothesis is incorrect. With that said, I understand that if someone doesn't hear it then it doesn't matter. Like I stated earlier in the thread, he's preaching false information, and it won't go uncorrected.

Quote:
Originally Posted by exojam View Post

Nuance,

Thanks for the reply. Just to be clear I never stated there would be no difference with speaker cabinets sitting directly next to the source speaker. Heck even moving the measuring mic a few inches or the speaker a few inches can provide different results. So yes, I would expect a different result with changes in what is or is not in someones room.

What I was looking for is someone to say is these types of measurements (FR response, decay, etc) could be used to try and correlate the difference they hear when items (speakers in this case that are moved-removed from the room). That to me is better than just saying there will be a difference.

But even with that, we do not listen to measurement graphs. I am sure if folks looked at some of mine they may say that stinks but get in the room and listen and it is a whole different story.

Glad to hear the GTG was a good one.

James

I hear ya, James. I didn't mean for my post to appear to be a response solely to you. It was meant for everyone even though I quoted you. I am sorry if I caused a misunderstand - my bad buddy.
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post #1617 of 4198
4/15/12 at 7:07pm
Thread Starter 
Nuance,

No problems over here, I am good.

James
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post #1618 of 4198
4/16/12 at 1:01pm
Hey, guys. Make sure not to get personal in this thread. Opinions are allowed. That stated, when you have made your point, move on.

K
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post #1619 of 4198
4/16/12 at 1:08pm
Do you get a cape since you are a super moderator? :P
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post #1620 of 4198
4/16/12 at 5:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

As promised, here are my in-room measurements of the Philharmonic 2's. They are crossed over to the subwoofers at 80Hz fixed (thanks to my preamp), and they have 1/3 octave smoothing applied.

15-200


200-20,000


All measurements were taken from the listening position (about 10.5 feet away), and of the left and right speaker separately; then I averaged the response and captured pics of the bass (20-200) and then the rest of the spectrum (200-20,000). I am tired - time for bed.

These look pretty decent. To what do you attribute the weak and recessed midrange you heard?
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